Driverless trains.
If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the
drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
CJG wrote:
If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Driverless trains.
"Richard J." wrote:
CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? ... Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Do DLR trains get less internal vandalism than tube trains because the train crew wanders around instead of staying locked in a cab? Colin McKenzie |
Driverless trains.
"Colin McKenzie" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote: CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? ... Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Do DLR trains get less internal vandalism than tube trains because the train crew wanders around instead of staying locked in a cab? It would appear so ... |
Driverless trains.
"Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? |
Driverless trains.
Ed Crowley wrote:
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... "Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? They are very short and as far as I know each vehicle simply runs back and forth along its own dedicated track. Such systems are in no way comparable with any line of the London underground most of which has several dozen trains.in service at any one time all of which may be carrying one thousand passengers. If such a policy were implemented and the engineer couldn't fix the problem there is then a need for the train following the defective one to push it out. Do you have any suggestions as to how that might work? |
Driverless trains.
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: "Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... "Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? They are very short and as far as I know each vehicle simply runs back and forth along its own dedicated track. Such systems are in no way comparable with any line of the London underground most of which has several dozen trains.in service at any one time all of which may be carrying one thousand passengers. If such a policy were implemented and the engineer couldn't fix the problem there is then a need for the train following the defective one to push it out. Do you have any suggestions as to how that might work? Someone could board the train behind and drive it manually (manual controls would have to be retained as with the DLR). You would obviously need to have enough people on hand who are trained to do this! |
Driverless trains.
Ed Crowley wrote:
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: "Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... "Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? They are very short and as far as I know each vehicle simply runs back and forth along its own dedicated track. Such systems are in no way comparable with any line of the London underground most of which has several dozen trains.in service at any one time all of which may be carrying one thousand passengers. If such a policy were implemented and the engineer couldn't fix the problem there is then a need for the train following the defective one to push it out. Do you have any suggestions as to how that might work? Someone could board the train behind and drive it manually (manual controls would have to be retained as with the DLR). You would obviously need to have enough people on hand who are trained to do this! So you've got all these people sitting around waiting for emergencies to occur. Why not give them something to do in the meantime, like drive a train? |
Driverless trains.
Ed Crowley wrote:
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: "Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: "Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... "Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? They are very short and as far as I know each vehicle simply runs back and forth along its own dedicated track. Such systems are in no way comparable with any line of the London underground most of which has several dozen trains.in service at any one time all of which may be carrying one thousand passengers. If such a policy were implemented and the engineer couldn't fix the problem there is then a need for the train following the defective one to push it out. Do you have any suggestions as to how that might work? Someone could board the train behind and drive it manually (manual controls would have to be retained as with the DLR). You would obviously need to have enough people on hand who are trained to do this! So you've got all these people sitting around waiting for emergencies to occur. Why not give them something to do in the meantime, like drive a train? Computers are better at driving trains than humans. Also, having a member of staff on every platform has to be cheaper than staff on some platforms plus a driver on every train. Why couldn't the platform staff be trained to fix/drive trains in an emergency? It would make their jobs more interesting and varied to boot ... Technically, you may be correct. However there is one fundamental point invariably overlooked by proponents of such courses of action. "People like people", i.e. passengers like to know there is someone on hand to deal with a situation as it arises. IIRC when the Victoria Line was being planned and built the tyechnology would have allowed driverless trains. The system you propose is feasible on the DLR. It is the human factor that keeps a member of staff actually on the train. |
Driverless trains.
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: Computers are better at driving trains than humans. Also, having a member of staff on every platform has to be cheaper than staff on some platforms plus a driver on every train. Why couldn't the platform staff be trained to fix/drive trains in an emergency? It would make their jobs more interesting and varied to boot ... Technically, you may be correct. However there is one fundamental point invariably overlooked by proponents of such courses of action. "People like people", i.e. passengers like to know there is someone on hand to deal with a situation as it arises. IIRC when the Victoria Line was being planned and built the tyechnology would have allowed driverless trains. The system you propose is feasible on the DLR. It is the human factor that keeps a member of staff actually on the train. IMO it's better to have visible staff on every platform than locked away at the front of the train. |
Driverless trains.
Ed Crowley wrote:
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... Ed Crowley wrote: Computers are better at driving trains than humans. Also, having a member of staff on every platform has to be cheaper than staff on some platforms plus a driver on every train. Why couldn't the platform staff be trained to fix/drive trains in an emergency? It would make their jobs more interesting and varied to boot ... Technically, you may be correct. However there is one fundamental point invariably overlooked by proponents of such courses of action. "People like people", i.e. passengers like to know there is someone on hand to deal with a situation as it arises. IIRC when the Victoria Line was being planned and built the tyechnology would have allowed driverless trains. The system you propose is feasible on the DLR. It is the human factor that keeps a member of staff actually on the train. IMO it's better to have visible staff on every platform than locked away at the front of the train. Most people prefer both. Given the option I expect most people would also prefer to have someone on the back of the train as well. Unfortunately the people who actually run the Underground have had to play the part of a football. Hopefully that role will now be in the past (but I'm not holding my breath). |
Driverless trains.
"Ed Crowley" wrote in message t...
I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? I think theres a slight difference between a mickey mouse 1 car people mover on a half mile above ground track with a few dozen people on board and a tube train with 800 passengers and 8 cars underground in the heat! B2003 |
Driverless trains.
Boltar wrote:
"Ed Crowley" wrote in message t... I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? I think theres a slight difference between a mickey mouse 1 car people mover on a half mile above ground track with a few dozen people on board and a tube train with 800 passengers and 8 cars underground in the heat! Does anyone know if there are any Métro staff on board the trains on line 14 in Paris, which have ATO and no driver at the front? (Good view for passengers though!) -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Driverless trains.
"Ed Crowley" wrote in message t...
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... "Ed Crowley" wrote in message ... "Richard J." wrote in message ... CJG wrote: If DLR can run without drivers. Why can't the Victoria line have the drivers turfed out of the cab and down checking tickets. I know there is a higher frequency of trains on Victoria than DLR. But surely if DLR can run safety with no drivers then underground lines can? DLR trains have a train captain (or whatever they're now called) whose duties include opening and closing the doors, and making sure that this is done safely. He can do this from any of a number of points on the train because the trains are short and the trains were designed that way. On the tube, trains are much longer, hence TV is needed to enable the train operator to close the doors safely with full visibility of the platform (some of which are curved, unlike DLR). In practice this means that the screens are either in the cab or at the front of the platform. Duplicate screens and other equipment could be provided elsewhere in principle, but I don't see how the extra cost could be justified. Couldn't a button be fitted on the platform that allows platform staff to close the train doors when safe? You then wouldn't need any staff on the trains at all ... And what happens when the train comes to a sudden stop due to mechanical failure? Are all passengers going to be trained in remedying faults? I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? A platform runs all the way alongside the 'train' at gatwick |
Driverless trains.
In message , Colin McKenzie
writes Do DLR trains get less internal vandalism than tube trains because the train crew wanders around instead of staying locked in a cab? I can't say I use DLR that often. Maybe three times a month at most. But they do seem a lot less vandalised than LU trains. -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
In message , Cast_Iron
writes "People like people", i.e. passengers like to know there is someone on hand to deal with a situation as it arises. But the whole point is. Have the train driver checking tickets and making a presence felt on the train. If the train breaks down or any technical problem. They can sort out the problem quickly. As they are already on the train. Maybe the drivers wouldn't like the idea of leaving the cab and having to deal with the customers.... -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:48:55 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote: Boltar wrote: "Ed Crowley" wrote in message t... I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? I think theres a slight difference between a mickey mouse 1 car people mover on a half mile above ground track with a few dozen people on board and a tube train with 800 passengers and 8 cars underground in the heat! Does anyone know if there are any Métro staff on board the trains on line 14 in Paris, which have ATO and no driver at the front? (Good view for passengers though!) From memory there are no staff on the trains. I believe that the VAL trains in Lille and elsewhere in France also have no on board staff. The new North Easy line in Singapore is also driverless but staff do sometimes travel on trains - there are always people in the stations. Berlin have also tested driverless capability on one of the U Bahn lines recently. It is not beyond the wit of operators to provide driverless trains that prove to be entirely acceptable to the travelling public. I would accept that there is a cultural issue to deal with in London concerning completely staff less trains - especially with regard to the current level of unreliability; passenger information, safety, security and vandalism issues. A lot of work would be needed to switch LUL lines to a fully automated mode. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Driverless trains.
As Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:40:46 +0100 appeared fresh and rosy-fingered,
"Ed Crowley" wrote: I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? There are walkways next to the tracks at Gatwick. I don't know about Stanstead - I was once booked to go on a tour of the transit system there, but some Afghans decided to hijack a plane on the same day. When I went there to fly somewhere it was broken, and we got bussed. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey Interested in the UK Hull & Barnsley Railway? http://www.hullandbarnsleyrailway.org.uk |
Driverless trains.
"Cast_Iron" wrote in message ... There have also been cases where people have broken into drivers cabs and beaten them up. Really? I've never heard of that before. What's your source for this information? |
Driverless trains.
In message , Ed Crowley
writes There have also been cases where people have broken into drivers cabs and beaten them up. Really? I've never heard of that before. What's your source for this information? It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. I think you'll find it was in the Evening Standard. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
Driverless trains.
"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message ... In message , Ed Crowley writes There have also been cases where people have broken into drivers cabs and beaten them up. Really? I've never heard of that before. What's your source for this information? It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. I think you'll find it was in the Evening Standard. Sh*t. I always thought those doors to the drivers' cab looked pretty solid. |
Driverless trains.
In message , Ed Crowley
writes There have also been cases where people have broken into drivers cabs and beaten them up. Really? I've never heard of that before. What's your source for this information? It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. I think you'll find it was in the Evening Standard. Sh*t. I always thought those doors to the drivers' cab looked pretty solid. The emergency access to the cab is by way of removing a plastic flap - hardly a great challenge, even for the hard of thinking it appears. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
Driverless trains.
In message , Steve Fitzgerald
] writes It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. This is true. LU was screwing around with commuters as per usual. Trains delayed. One of the commuters took it personally. -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
"CJG" wrote in message ... In message , Steve Fitzgerald ] writes It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. This is true. LU was screwing around with commuters as per usual. Trains delayed. One of the commuters took it personally. -- CJG I bet that really speeded up everyone's journey. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 |
Driverless trains.
CJG wrote the following in:
In message , Steve Fitzgerald ] writes It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. This is true. LU was screwing around with commuters as per usual. Trains delayed. One of the commuters took it personally. Disgusting that you'd defend such behaviour. In fact, it's so disgusting, I think I'll go round to your house and beat you up. But you annoyed me, so it's ok to do that, isn't it? -- message by Robin May, founder of International Boyism "Would Inspector Sands please go to the Operations Room immediately." Unofficially immune to hangovers. |
Driverless trains.
"Richard J." écrivait
: I think theres a slight difference between a mickey mouse 1 car people mover on a half mile above ground track with a few dozen people on board and a tube train with 800 passengers and 8 cars underground in the heat! Does anyone know if there are any Métro staff on board the trains on line 14 in Paris, which have ATO and no driver at the front? (Good view for passengers though!) There is no driver on board of the line 14 trains in Paris. On the other hand, there is a hidden dashboard in the front car permitting an agent to manually drive the train in the event of an emergency. The RATP expect to automate all the Paris Métro lines. This will start with the line 1 (400 000 passengers/day, 16 km). |
Driverless trains.
"CJG" wrote in message ... In message , Steve Fitzgerald ] writes It happened a couple of weeks ago when a Jubilee driver was assaulted at Bermondsey and required hospital treatment. This is true. LU was screwing around with commuters as per usual. Trains delayed. One of the commuters took it personally. That's pretty out of order. It wasn't the drivers' fault that the train was delayed. I bet they don't like sitting at red signals any more than we like sitting in traffic jams ... |
Driverless trains.
Would you really trust a train with no actual driver in the cab? Be honest
now |
Driverless trains.
Just me and the world wrote:
Would you really trust a train with no actual driver in the cab? Be honest now Yes, of course. Computers are very reliable these days and zp[]#-90yomgv qt qLuoyur ..'p['[0-][-= -- ..J drahciR )sserdda ni noy dna ku paws ,em liam-e ot( |
Driverless trains.
"Just me and the world" wrote in message ... Would you really trust a train with no actual driver in the cab? Be honest now Computers don't read the paper while driving (as witnessed on the Central line a good few times now) or turn up to work ****ed up on booze (a reference to recent reports about the levels of alcohol and drug abuse in the workplace, including the railway industry). |
Driverless trains.
In message , Ed Crowley
writes It wasn't the drivers' fault that the train was delayed. I never said it was. What I am saying is that its front-line staff who come in constant contact with customers that get all the crap and abuse about what their company is doing. -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
In message , Ed Crowley
writes Computers don't read the paper while driving (as witnessed on the Central line a good few times now) or turn up to work ****ed up on booze (a reference to recent reports about the levels of alcohol and drug abuse in the workplace, including the railway industry). Or use a mobile phone whilst driving (obviously not underground) -- CJG |
Driverless trains.
In article , Just me and the world
wrote: Would you really trust a train with no actual driver in the cab? Be honest now You do on a lift. It's an awful smash if something really does go wrong! And there is no driver in the CAB of a DLR train. Michael Bell -- |
Driverless trains.
"Michael Bell" wrote in message ... In article , Just me and the world wrote: Would you really trust a train with no actual driver in the cab? Be honest now You do on a lift. It's an awful smash if something really does go wrong! Incorrrect. There is a safety device that stops the lift falling in the event of the cables breaking. See http://www.theelevatormuseum.org/e/e-5.htm And there is no driver in the CAB of a DLR train. Very true, but what you fail to point out is that there is no cab in which to place the driver. |
Driverless trains.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:40:46 +0100, "Ed Crowley"
wrote: I would imagine an engineer would be called. What happens on the driver-less airport shuttle trains such as those at Stanstead and Gatwick? WTF can't anyone spell 'Stansted'? |
Driverless trains.
Colin McKenzie écrivait
: There is no driver on board of the line 14 trains in Paris. On the other hand, there is a hidden dashboard in the front car permitting an agent to manually drive the train in the event of an emergency. How does he get there if the train is stuck in a tunnel? He can walk in the tunnel (they are enough wide that people could walk beside a train). Are RATP tunnels single or double track? They are generally double tracked, but some section of the line 14 are single tracked. |
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