Colin McKenzie wrote:
Mr Thant wrote:
Is the underused line - the Dudding Hill Junction Line to Acton -
Does this see much traffic these days?

Yes it is, and it sees a few freight trains a day I think.

Semaphore signals, links several main lines, through industrial and
heavily populated areas... The term criminal neglect comes to mind.

Heavily populated? The only dense population was around Taylors Lane (now
demolished) and around Fawood Avenue (to be demolished within a few years,
if not already). Industrial estates produce rail demand but it is too peaked
to be useful.

On Jan 26, 2:55 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Wider roads and bus lanes would also be achievable, and should be a lot
cheaper.

A few bus lanes on the North Circular either side of Henlys Corner would
help too.


Bus bus bus. While the nation's public transport planning involves
such a skanky form of transport, the car will still rule. There's a
chance that people going to Brent Cross will use their gold/travel
cards up or down from St Albans, Watford, and the lines inward, and
transfer onto a DLR-style system. They are going to drive if it
involves a bus.

People will tollerate public transport (reliabilty and cost issues
aside) in the form of trains and planes. They dont use buses. Buses
are a distress purchase, the kind of clientelle they attract are
either old or scum, even compared to things like the NLL or Watford DC
line.

On Jan 27, 7:12*pm, Paul Weaver wrote:
On Jan 26, 2:55 pm, "John Rowland"

wrote:
Wider roads and bus lanes would also be achievable, and should be a lot
cheaper.
A few bus lanes on the North Circular either side of Henlys Corner would
help too.

Bus bus bus. While the nation's public transport planning involves
such a skanky form of transport, the car will still rule. There's a
chance that people going to Brent Cross will use their gold/travel
cards up or down from St Albans, Watford, and the lines inward, and
transfer onto a DLR-style system. They are going to drive if it
involves a bus.

People will tollerate public transport (reliabilty and cost issues
aside) in the form of trains and planes. They dont use buses. Buses
are a distress purchase, the kind of clientelle they attract are
either old or scum, even compared to things like the NLL or Watford DC
line.

The four main reasons I use buses

1) They go directly to places that aren't near a railway line.

2) They go more often than adjacent trains.

3) I want to go beyond my travelcard zones.

4) It is late at night after the trains have stopped.

I may also be old and scum, but I suspect that the above reasons may
attract to people who are not.

At 12:21:09 on Sun, 27 Jan 2008 MIG opined:-

The four main reasons I use buses

1) They go directly to places that aren't near a railway line.

2) They go more often than adjacent trains.

3) I want to go beyond my travelcard zones.

4) It is late at night after the trains have stopped.

You forgot
5) I don't have to find somewhere to park.
--
Thoss

Paul Weaver wrote:
On Jan 26, 2:55 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Wider roads and bus lanes would also be achievable, and should be a
lot cheaper.

A few bus lanes on the North Circular either side of Henlys Corner
would help too.


Bus bus bus. While the nation's public transport planning involves
such a skanky form of transport, the car will still rule. There's a
chance that people going to Brent Cross will use their gold/travel
cards up or down from St Albans, Watford, and the lines inward, and
transfer onto a DLR-style system. They are going to drive if it
involves a bus.

I hear you, but the Brent Cross bus network stetches to Watford, Edmonton,
Finsbury Park, Hammersmith etc, and all of these buses currently get stuck
in the abysmal jams around Brent Cross at closing time. I don't believe a
rail system makes sense for the distance from the Thameslink to the Northern
Line. The depot staff would seriously outnumber the drivers, for a start,
and the expense would be particularly hard to justify when it would only be
operational for 10 hours a day.

I don't think a new station so close to Hendon Thameslink adds up either.
There is an emergency-only road from Layfield Road to one of the Brent Cross
car parks, and this allows a guaranteed traffic-free route to and from
Hendon Thameslink, so they could start by running a free shuttle bus via
that route to Hendon Thameslink just to see how many people will use it.
Show the free bus on the Thameslink maps and timetables for a year. People
don't like using buses, but spending two minutes on a free bus doesn't feel
like "using a bus", it's more like using a lift or travolator.

People will tollerate public transport (reliabilty and cost issues
aside) in the form of trains and planes. They dont use buses. Buses
are a distress purchase, the kind of clientelle they attract are
either old or scum, even compared to things like the NLL or Watford DC
line.

Without agreeing with what you've said, I actually agree with... erm... what
you say.

Buses are very often the most convenient way of getting around, and a lot of
the traditional limitations of buses are slowly being fixed. However, the
public perception of them is trash - and you are quite right that the
general public won't get out of their cars for buses, where they might for
trains, planes and monorails (I Wish!).

And to the reply posters who give reasons as to why they use buses, that's
good for you. But if we want to encourage people who CURRENTLY use their
cars out of them, then something has to change, be it in actual
infrastructure or spreading the praises of buses.

Incidentally, buses outside of the M25 have an awful long way to catching up
with the London Bus experience. Most of them stop at 5 and are nowhere near
the frequency and reliability of National Rail (And that's saying
something...) The few bus routes that do still run, seem to serve the same
places as the trains and most local routes have vanished. (I.e. only 1 bus
each direction per day so that the powers that be don't notice.)

Best Wishes,
LEWIS

On Jan 27, 10:49*pm, "Lew 1"
wrote:
People will tollerate public transport (reliabilty and cost issues
aside) in the form of trains and planes. They dont use buses. Buses
are a distress purchase, the kind of clientelle they attract are
either old or scum, even compared to things like the NLL or Watford DC
line.

Without agreeing with what you've said, I actually agree with... erm... what
you say.

Buses are very often the most convenient way of getting around, and a lot of
the traditional limitations of buses are slowly being fixed. However, the
public perception of them is trash - and you are quite right that the
general public won't get out of their cars for buses, where they might for
trains, planes and monorails (I Wish!).

And to the reply posters who give reasons as to why they use buses, that's
good for you. But if we want to encourage people who CURRENTLY use their
cars out of them, then something has to change, be it in actual
infrastructure or spreading the praises of buses.

Incidentally, buses outside of the M25 have an awful long way to catching up
with the London Bus experience. Most of them stop at 5 and are nowhere near
the frequency and reliability of National Rail (And that's saying
something...) The few bus routes that do still run, seem to serve the same
places as the trains and most local routes have vanished. (I.e. only 1 bus
each direction per day so that the powers that be don't notice.)

That sort of thing is sometimes done to rail services and it isn't in
the intrinsic nature of buses to stop early, run once a day or
anything else, any more than it's in the intrinsic nature of monorails
to run frequently all night. They run when someone runs them.

On 27 Jan, 22:49, "Lew 1" wrote:
Incidentally, buses outside of the M25 have an awful long way to catching up
with the London Bus experience. Most of them stop at 5 and are nowhere near
the frequency and reliability of National Rail (And that's saying
something...) The few bus routes that do still run, seem to serve the same
places as the trains and most local routes have vanished. (I.e. only 1 bus
each direction per day so that the powers that be don't notice.)

I get the bus to the station because it saves on parking fees, and you
can't argue with £1.80 a day, compared to the petrol and parking costs
of driving (that said, the reliability and mind-numbingly bad
timetabling of the 258 tempts me to drive sometimes).

On the other far end of the scale, take the Arriva W9/7 service I used
to get back in 2006. £2.50 each way for a ~10 minute bus ride between
Bushey and Borehamwood, which after 6 is goes to 1 bus an hour, and
they refuse to serve the timetabled stop in the actual station's bus
stops, as the drivers apparently have trouble turning in. The TfL
buses have no trouble mind you, so it was actually cheaper (and taking
into account the wait) quicker to get the bus to Stanmore then wait
and get another to Bushey. It also worked out cheaper to drive from
Bushey to Borehamwood and pay the parking fees than get the bus. That
can't be right.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:12:54 -0800 (PST), Paul Weaver
wrote:

People will tollerate public transport (reliabilty and cost issues
aside) in the form of trains and planes. They dont use buses. Buses
are a distress purchase, the kind of clientelle they attract are
either old or scum, even compared to things like the NLL or Watford DC
line.

Not, IMX, in Central London, nor in many other European cities. The
question is how to spread that mentality elsewhere.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:47:08 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

I hear you, but the Brent Cross bus network stetches to Watford, Edmonton,
Finsbury Park, Hammersmith etc, and all of these buses currently get stuck
in the abysmal jams around Brent Cross at closing time.

Which suggests poor design of the bus infrastructure. Hamburg, for
instance, has traffic congestion like anywhere else, but the bus
infrastructure is provided such that it almost never affects the
service.

There are a lot of examples of such infrastructure, but the most
useful one is things like overtaking lanes at traffic lights, where if
a bus is approaching in the bus lane all other routes go to red and
the bus may turn in any direction necessary, including across other
traffic. There's one on the 73 route not far from Euston assisting
the buses turning right, but they are otherwise *very* rare in the UK.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.