Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the reintroduction of
trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify conversion
to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?
--
Michael Hoffman

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the reintroduction of
trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify conversion
to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and
display reasonable environmental credentials. I'm not an obsessive
enthusiast but I do think it is a huge shame that London's system was
shut down when it was. I wish I had a trolleybus level of service [1] on
my local route (formerly the 623 / 625 in Walthamstow).

I'm not entirely convinced by the dash towards hybrids and fuel cells
given that trolleybus technology is mature and well understood. It has
also advanced considerably in recent years meaning that it is a more
flexible mode than it was. I do recognise that there are some issues
over the ability to overtake, the risk of breakdowns, complex junction
work with the wiring plus people may not wish to see lots of "knitting"
above London streets.

Do I assume you don't see a place for trolleys in London?

[1] about every 5 mins - on Christmas Day !

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote:
What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and
display reasonable environmental credentials. I'm not an obsessive
enthusiast but I do think it is a huge shame that London's system was
shut down when it was. I wish I had a trolleybus level of service [1] on
my local route (formerly the 623 / 625 in Walthamstow).

I'm not entirely convinced by the dash towards hybrids and fuel cells
given that trolleybus technology is mature and well understood. It has
also advanced considerably in recent years meaning that it is a more
flexible mode than it was. I do recognise that there are some issues
over the ability to overtake, the risk of breakdowns, complex junction
work with the wiring plus people may not wish to see lots of "knitting"
above London streets.

Do I assume you don't see a place for trolleys in London?

It was a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
--
Michael Hoffman

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the
reintroduction
of trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify
conversion to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and
display reasonable environmental credentials. I'm not an obsessive
enthusiast but I do think it is a huge shame that London's system was
shut down when it was. I wish I had a trolleybus level of service [1]
on my local route (formerly the 623 / 625 in Walthamstow).

I'm not entirely convinced by the dash towards hybrids and fuel cells
given that trolleybus technology is mature and well understood. It has
also advanced considerably in recent years meaning that it is a more
flexible mode than it was. I do recognise that there are some issues
over the ability to overtake, the risk of breakdowns, complex junction
work with the wiring plus people may not wish to see lots of "knitting"
above London streets.

Do I assume you don't see a place for trolleys in London?

[1] about every 5 mins - on Christmas Day !

I'm a great fan of trolleybuses but I do slightly wonder what they offer
these days apart from electric traction, even though I share your
scepticism of hybrids and fuel cells.

Modern diesel engines have much better power to weight ratios than in the
heyday of London Trolleybuses. Even the RMLs of the day could carry more
passengers than the trolleybuses they replaced.

And is there any world experience of high capacity modern double-deck
trolleybuses at all?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message .uk, at
15:07:00 on Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
And is there any world experience of high capacity modern double-deck
trolleybuses at all?

They have very effective trolly-bendy-buses in Geneva.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-02.jpg

And some that are more like trams-on-tyres:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-04.jpg

The only remaining modern double decker trolleybus may be this one in
Hong Kong (a trial, apparently now discontinued):

http://www.trolleybus.net/hk.htm
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message .uk, at
15:07:00 on Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
And is there any world experience of high capacity modern double-deck
trolleybuses at all?

They have very effective trolly-bendy-buses in Geneva.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-02.jpg

And some that are more like trams-on-tyres:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-04.jpg

That's the only one looking to be above what diesel technology could
deliver. I note that Geneva trolleybuses are all single deck, though.

The only remaining modern double decker trolleybus may be this one in
Hong Kong (a trial, apparently now discontinued):

http://www.trolleybus.net/hk.htm

It's not clear how much bigger than a standard diesel double that is, let
alone whether it would be able to work in the UK.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message .uk, at
21:25:00 on Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-04.jpg

That's the only one looking to be above what diesel technology could
deliver. I note that Geneva trolleybuses are all single deck, though.

A double-decker might foul the wires!

The only remaining modern double decker trolleybus may be this one in
Hong Kong (a trial, apparently now discontinued):

http://www.trolleybus.net/hk.htm

It's not clear how much bigger than a standard diesel double that is,

About the same size as the larger ones (as used secondhand as tour buses
in London).

let alone whether it would be able to work in the UK.

I don't know why it wouldn't, if the wires were a suitable height.
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message .uk,
at 21:25:00 on Sat, 1 Mar 2008, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/.../Geneve-04.jpg

That's the only one looking to be above what diesel technology could
deliver. I note that Geneva trolleybuses are all single deck, though.

A double-decker might foul the wires!

Yes, but not in London! How does the four axle jobbie's capacity compare
with London's Citaro bendies?

The only remaining modern double decker trolleybus may be this one
in
Hong Kong (a trial, apparently now discontinued):

http://www.trolleybus.net/hk.htm

It's not clear how much bigger than a standard diesel double that is,

About the same size as the larger ones (as used secondhand as tour
buses in London).

So, like as ERM maybe (80 seats)?

let alone whether it would be able to work in the UK.

I don't know why it wouldn't, if the wires were a suitable height.

Construction and Use Regulations. They and their predecessors have done
more to hold back London bus development in the past than technology.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Feb 29, 7:35 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 23:28:41 +0000, Michael Hoffman


Paul Corfield wrote:

I'd like to see a move towards more tram lines and the reintroduction of
trolleybuses for busy routes or networks that don't justify conversion
to trams.

What do trolleybuses get you?

I guess my reasoning is that trolleybuses represent a form of
"permanence" in terms of the electrical infrastructure being put in
place - similar to a tram. They are also quiet, smooth, fast and

snip

London could certainly do with smoother bus rides (although as a
priority, for me it comes rather a long way behind keeping buses out
of congestion and having working 'next bus' indicators at every stop)
and trolleybuses would no doubt help. But the biggest impact must be
the road surface. When I was in Berlin I was amazed at how smooth the
buses were. I assume that it's just down to maintaining the roads to
a higher quality, and not letting utilities dig them up whenever they
please. Is there any more to it than that?

I did take the 129 from North Greenwich the other day, which operates
hybrid buses, and on the busway they were very smooth - similar to a
tram.

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:56:01 -0800 (PST), brixtonite
wrote:

London could certainly do with smoother bus rides (although as a
priority, for me it comes rather a long way behind keeping buses out
of congestion and having working 'next bus' indicators at every stop)
and trolleybuses would no doubt help. But the biggest impact must be
the road surface. When I was in Berlin I was amazed at how smooth the
buses were. I assume that it's just down to maintaining the roads to
a higher quality, and not letting utilities dig them up whenever they
please. Is there any more to it than that?

One thing that would make London bus rides much smoother would be the
implementation of Bangkok-style "countdown to red" displays on traffic
lights. These would allow safe and sensible judgement of whether the
bus will get through on the current phase, and thus reduce heavy
acceleration (to get through a set of green lights) and braking (when
the bus fails to do so).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.