TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

TfL have now published the 2009 fares leaflet.

It's available at tube stations or at

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

No real surprises in it. The new mid-day off peak fares are the same
as the evening ones.

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On 6 Dec, 22:30, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
No real surprises in it. The new mid-day off peak fares are the same
as the evening ones.

The differential fares are now called "peak"/"off-peak" rather than
"0700-1900"/"all other times", which means a journey made between
1600-1900 is charged at "peak" rates but contributes to your "off
peak" cap.

The image on the front cover has been updated with the new Tramlink
livery (a more palatable version than the real thing, in fact), and
the DLR train has been moved further onto the page, but is still the
old design.

U

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

"Matthew Dickinson" wrote in message
...
TfL have now published the 2009 fares leaflet.

It's available at tube stations or at

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

No real surprises in it. The new mid-day off peak fares are the same
as the evening ones.

You would hope there wouldn't be any surprises, given the information was
published (and discussed here) in September...

However I don't recall discussing the morning peak fares starting at 0630
rather than 0700 before. Was that flagged up in advance?

Paul S

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

Matthew Dickinson wrote in
:

TfL have now published the 2009 fares leaflet.

It's available at tube stations or at

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

No real surprises in it. The new mid-day off peak fares are the same
as the evening ones.

The explanation of Oyster includes the paragraph

"Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and National
Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within
two and a half hours of you having touched in at the
start of your journey. If the time between touching
in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare
for your journey. If this happens, you will need to
call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

I belive this is the first that it has been documented (and is also a
change as the current limit is understood to be two hours).


David

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 7, 4:04*pm, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:
Matthew Dickinson wrote :

TfL have now published the 2009 fares leaflet.

It's available at tube stations or at

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

No real surprises in it. The new mid-day off peak fares are the same
as the evening ones.

The explanation of Oyster includes the paragraph

"Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and National
Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within
two and a half hours of you having touched in at the
start of your journey. If the time between touching
in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare
for your journey. If this happens, you will need to
call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

I belive this is the first that it has been documented (and is also a
change as the current limit is understood to be two hours). * * * *

David

It doesn't say whether the timer is reset on touching in at an
intermediate point (eg OOS interchange). Presumably it is not, from
past threads, but someone might reasonably assuming that touching in
is touching in.

So if you go to Stratford, do whatever you need to do in half an hour,
and then go back home from Stratford, you could end up being charged 2
x £4 instead of 2 x £1.50 (or whatever the new fares are) for the
original journey not being completed in 2½ hours and an unresolved
touch out when you get home.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On 7 Dec, 16:19, MIG wrote:
So if you go to Stratford, do whatever you need to do in half an hour,
and then go back home from Stratford, you could end up being charged 2
x £4 instead of 2 x £1.50 (or whatever the new fares are) for the
original journey not being completed in 2½ hours and an unresolved
touch out when you get home.

Why Stratford? You can't get out of the station without actually
touching out. Have you had this problem there?

If it was somewhere like Shepherd's Bush and you arrived by
Overground, popped into Waitrose (or Morrisson's) and left by
Underground, you'd be more likely to run into it.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

As far as I can tell, when you touch back in, it has to decide there
and then whether to reopen the previous journey. Recalculating
retroactively seems to be beyond the capabilities of the current
system.

U

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 7, 4:42*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 7 Dec, 16:19, MIG wrote:

So if you go to Stratford, do whatever you need to do in half an hour,
and then go back home from Stratford, you could end up being charged 2
x £4 instead of 2 x £1.50 (or whatever the new fares are) for the
original journey not being completed in 2½ hours and an unresolved
touch out when you get home.

Why Stratford? You can't get out of the station without actually
touching out. Have you had this problem there?

I was trying to think of somewhere which was reported to have a
particularly long timeout. Maybe Shepherds Bush would be a more
approriate example.


If it was somewhere like Shepherd's Bush and you arrived by
Overground, popped into Waitrose (or Morrisson's) and left by
Underground, you'd be more likely to run into it.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

As far as I can tell, when you touch back in, it has to decide there
and then whether to reopen the previous journey. Recalculating
retroactively seems to be beyond the capabilities of the current
system.

It may be, but I can't understand why, given that recalculating
retroactively seems to be what it does all the time, and that all
kinds of adjustment can be done manually at the ticket office (and
surely anything that the system can do can be automated).

There is certainly no moral justification, even if there might just
possibly be a practical one. The excuse for the unresolved fares is
that you are assumed to have been to an ungated station miles away if
you can't prove where you've been*. If all your touches are recorded,
that excuse really doesn't wash.

*An assumption of guilt not applied to travelcards or other tickets.

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

Mr Thant wrote

If it was somewhere like Shepherd's Bush and you arrived by
Overground, popped into Waitrose (or Morrisson's) and left by
Underground, you'd be more likely to run into it.

IIRC the original event was someone picking a shoe repair near Bow
Church / Bow Road OSI but Euston / Euston Square seems a likely place
too.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system
should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

As far as I can tell, when you touch back in, it has to decide there
and then whether to reopen the previous journey. Recalculating
retroactively seems to be beyond the capabilities of the current
system.

Does the touch back in have to be at a different barriered zone to
counts as an OSI? If so, returning by exactly the same route can't
trigger the problem.

And what if OOS touch is within the 30 minutes but already over the "2
hours" ?

One, very generous, solution would be to start a new "2 hour" period
each time you touched in

--
Mike D

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c958ac$8ae2ac20$LocalHost@default...


Mr Thant wrote

If it was somewhere like Shepherd's Bush and you arrived by
Overground, popped into Waitrose (or Morrisson's) and left by
Underground, you'd be more likely to run into it.

IIRC the original event was someone picking a shoe repair near Bow
Church / Bow Road OSI but Euston / Euston Square seems a likely place
too.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system
should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

As far as I can tell, when you touch back in, it has to decide there
and then whether to reopen the previous journey. Recalculating
retroactively seems to be beyond the capabilities of the current
system.

Does the touch back in have to be at a different barriered zone to
counts as an OSI? If so, returning by exactly the same route can't
trigger the problem.

And what if OOS touch is within the 30 minutes but already over the "2
hours" ?

One, very generous, solution would be to start a new "2 hour" period
each time you touched in

--
Mike D



So just to clarify what hours are now classed as peak?

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 8, 8:12*am, wrote:
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in messagenews:01c958ac$8ae2ac20$LocalHost@default...







Mr Thant wrote

If it was somewhere like Shepherd's Bush and you arrived by
Overground, popped into Waitrose (or Morrisson's) and left by
Underground, you'd be more likely to run into it.

IIRC the original event was someone picking a shoe repair near Bow
Church / Bow Road OSI but Euston / Euston Square seems a likely place
too.

It seems to me that if all the touches are recorded, the system
should
be able to recalculate the OOS as two journeys.

As far as I can tell, when you touch back in, it has to decide there
and then whether to reopen the previous journey. Recalculating
retroactively seems to be beyond the capabilities of the current
system.

Does the touch back in have to be at a different barriered zone to
counts as an OSI? If so, returning by exactly the same route can't
trigger the problem.

And what if OOS touch is within the 30 minutes but already over the "2
hours" ?

One, very generous, solution would be to start a new "2 hour" period
each time you touched in

--
Mike D

So just to clarify what hours are now classed as peak?

For the price of a single journey or for capping? (Reminds me of an
episode of South Park where the aliens are confused if you don't use
the same word for everything.)

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

wrote in message
...

So just to clarify what hours are now classed as peak?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

Page 5: Individual Fares

"Peak Oyster single fares apply from 0630 to 0930 and
from 1600 to 1900 Monday to Friday (excluding public
holidays). At all other times, the Off-Peak Oyster single
fare applies."

Page 7: Capping

"The appropriate Peak daily price cap will apply if
you travel from 0430 and before 0930 Monday
to Friday (excluding public holidays)."

"The appropriate Off-Peak daily price cap will apply
for all journeys on the same day:
Monday to Friday: from 0930 and any journey
that starts before 0430 the following day,
Saturday, Sunday and public holidays: from 0430
and any journey that starts before 0430 the
following day."

Seems clear enough, the change from peak to offpeak for capping is
0930,aligned with paper travelcards, and NR outboundary travelcards...

Paul

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 7, 4:04 pm, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:
"Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and National
Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within
two and a half hours of you having touched in at the
start of your journey. If the time between touching
in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare
for your journey. If this happens, you will need to
call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

Isn't that nice of them. So for example you're travelling from
Amersham to Epping which would probably take not far off 2 hours at
the best of times , and theres lots of delays. So as well as being
late you get charged more for the privilege. It just beggars belief
really. Where the hell do these @rseholes get off screwing passengers
about?

B2003

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On 8 Dec, 11:11, wrote:
Isn't that nice of them. So for example you're travelling from
Amersham to Epping which would probably take not far off 2 hours at
the best of times , and theres lots of delays. So as well as being
late you get charged more for the privilege. It just beggars belief
really.

They have increased the limit by half an hour than it used to be, and
they've added the warning about it to the fares booklet. So imaginary
passengers are being looked after better than ever.

U

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 8, 11:38 am, Mr Thant
wrote:
They have increased the limit by half an hour than it used to be, and
they've added the warning about it to the fares booklet.

Oh , thats all right then. I'm sure everyone makes sure they get a
copy of and read the fares booklet, especially the small print.

So imaginary passengers are being looked after better than ever.

They might not be common but these sorts of journeys will happen. But
then lets be honest - this is just another cynical way of making a bit
of extra money isn't it which they couldn't get away with under the
old paper ticket system.

B2003

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 8, 11:56*am, wrote:
On Dec 8, 11:38 am, Mr Thant
wrote:

They have increased the limit by half an hour than it used to be, and
they've added the warning about it to the fares booklet.

Oh , thats all right then. I'm sure everyone makes sure they get a
copy of and read the fares booklet, especially the small print.

So imaginary passengers are being looked after better than ever.

They might not be common but these sorts of journeys will happen. But
then lets be honest - this is just another cynical way of making a bit
of extra money isn't it which they couldn't get away with under the
old paper ticket system.

I don't think the Oyster problems are necessarily as cynical as all
that. It's more a case of something that's been common in
organisations I've worked in.

That is, instead of thoroughly documenting the business process that
are carried out by the organisation and then specking a new computer
system to support them, new processes are invented on the hoof just
because the system happens to be able to do them, and whatever it
can't do is left out (because the need wasn't documented).

Where the legacy system continues to operate in parallel, there are
then glaring inconsistencies (eg no automatic assumption of having
gone beyond your zones with a travelcard, but automatic assumption of
guilt with Oyster).

However, I do get frustrated by the refusal to fix the problems once
they emerge and have simple solutions.

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 8, 12:08 pm, MIG wrote:
I don't think the Oyster problems are necessarily as cynical as all
that.

I do. Think about it - if someone hasn't touched out for a number of
hours then they've probably left the system anyway somehow without
having to do it - in which case they'll just get a penalty fair next
time they touch in anyway - or they're delayed or waiting for friends/
family inside the gates somewhere. I simply can't think of any good
reason for this surcharge other than to cynically extract more money
from passengers, knowing full well that most people won't bother to
check how much money has been taken off when they exit and even if
they did probably wouldn't realise they'd been scammed.

However, I do get frustrated by the refusal to fix the problems once
they emerge and have simple solutions.

Simple - if it makes TfL/LU more money then its not seen as a problem.

B2003

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On 08/12/08 13:33, wrote:
Simple - if it makes TfL/LU more money then its not seen as a problem.

I do not understand the logic. When exiting at a station with barriers,
it should be obvious to the system that a touch out preceeded by a touch
in are part of the same journey. When it comes to stations with no
barriers however, it seems that you will get charged for 2 unresolved
journeys.

TfL 2009 fares leaflet
 

On Dec 8, 8:47*pm, Chris Hills wrote:
On 08/12/08 13:33, wrote:

Simple - if it makes TfL/LU more money then its not seen as a problem.

I do not understand the logic. When exiting at a station with barriers,
it should be obvious to the system that a touch out preceeded by a touch
in are part of the same journey. When it comes to stations with no
barriers however, it seems that you will get charged for 2 unresolved
journeys.

There should not be many stations without barriers. The majority
without are DLR stations which have standalone pads. However, these
are often very badly placed.

At Greenwich it's still possible (although a new pad seems to have
been added it's still badly placed) to leave the front of the train
and head for the station exit without passing any Oyster pad. There's
no barriers or pads at the main exit and it's a long way back, even if
you knew where the pad was. There should be one by the wall at the
tunnel end of the DLR platform.