On 13 Dec, 20:40, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Jonathan Stott" wrote:

For the first time in a while I made the journey from Bournemouth to
Brockenhurst in the daylight.

I noticed what appear to be some sort of gadgets stuck on top of a short
post that look suspiciously like touchpads for smartcards. I saw them next
to the entrances at New Milton, Hinton Admiral and Christchurch stations.

Is this the start of South West Trains' introduction of smartcards across
their franchise?

Yes - and once you start looking for them, the support pillars or wall
brackets and associated wiring conduit are visible in a lot of stations, I
even saw a couple of the readers on the Netley line this week; and you may
have noticed the new barriers at Southampton have integral 'Oyster like'
yellow pads. Fitters are also going around modifying the S&B TVMs that
aren't already fitted for smartcard readers (the rectangular knock out plate
to the right of the screen).


It's on then! Funny, I was thinking about whether SWT would sensibly
follow TfL's usage of a yellow 'touch-here' symbol for the smartcard
pads on ticket gates.

I haven't been following this that carefully lately - SWT's system
(and presumably all of those yet to come) will be to the ITSO
standard. Ticket gates in the London zones will of course also have to
accept Oyster (aka Philip's proprietary MiFare smartcards). IIRC the
DfT had agreed to fund work done by TfL to their Oyster readers on
ticket gates, on standalone validators (such as on the DLR) and on
buses to modify them so as to be able to read ITSO smartcards too - is
this still on? If it is that still leaves questions open as to the
extent of such modifications, i.e. whether they would just be capable
of checking for a valid season ticket/Travelcard or alternatively be
capable of more advanced functions such as ITSO pay-as-you-go journeys
etc.

I would hope it's the latter for several reasons, one of which being
that it'd would assist TfL if they decided to move the Oyster system
over from MiFare to ITSO smartcards (MiFare being partially
compromised, though it hasn't seemingly been holed below the
waterline, plus of course there's the issue that MiFare is single-
supplier.) I haven't read anything in particular to support this idea
but I have my suspicions that TfL might be tempted to make this switch
to ITSO at some point - which could lead to the benefit of 'National
Rail' smartcard products being loaded on new ITSO Oyster cards. This
would of course require modification or replacement of the very great
number of Oyster readers in ticket offices, ticket machines and shops
(the so called 'Oyster Ticket Stops', which have just been issued with
new kit - the 'Pearl' reader - is this ITSO compatible/easily
modifiable I wonder?).

Back to the imminent future - the new SWT smartcard readers on ticket
machines and in booking offices will presumably be ITSO only and hence
unable to deal with loading anything onto existing Oyster cards (or am
I wrong here?). Therefore I guess that some new symbol will have to be
devised for the smartcard readers on ticket machines, otherwise
holders of Oyster cards will end up trying to buy tickets or top-up
from machines which are incompatible. Going by the same logic I
suppose it would make some sense for the symbol to be a bit different
on non-London ticket gates in a probably doomed attempt to
differentiate them with Oyster (I can imagine people trying to use
Oyster PAYG from Guildford into London for example).


Of course there is no news as to what smart card functionality there will
be. If (like the current trial on the Reading line) it is for season tickets
only, there is not much point in readers at open stations...


Indeed - unless one could 'pick-up' a season ticket ordered online or
by phone by touching on the validator, or perhaps (ala Oyster) extend
a journey beyond the limits of the season ticket held. It would be
great if a straightforward pay-as-you-go functionality (again ala
Oyster) were to be implemented, but there are undeniably issues of
doing so on a network that has many ungated stations where it might be
misused/abused.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

Indeed - unless one could 'pick-up' a season ticket ordered online or
by phone by touching on the validator, or perhaps (ala Oyster) extend
a journey beyond the limits of the season ticket held. It would be
great if a straightforward pay-as-you-go functionality (again ala
Oyster) were to be implemented, but there are undeniably issues of
doing so on a network that has many ungated stations where it might be
misused/abused.

As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4.00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

Paul S

On 14 Dec, 12:13, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:


Indeed - unless one could 'pick-up' a season ticket ordered online or
by phone by touching on the validator, or perhaps (ala Oyster) extend
a journey beyond the limits of the season ticket held. It would be
great if a straightforward pay-as-you-go functionality (again ala
Oyster) were to be implemented, but there are undeniably issues of
doing so on a network that has many ungated stations where it might be
misused/abused.

As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4.00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...


Of course there's that too! But that is linked in to the issue of
gating - both are basically part of the more fundamental issue of
implementing a system which attempts to ensure passengers pay the
correct fare, along with attempting to eliminate or minimise
opportunities to 'work the system'.

The basic issue is one of intention - conventional pre-purchased
tickets spell out the passenger's intention of where they want to
travel (complex routing issues aside!), a pay-as-you-go system does
not.

Whilst a pay-as-you-go system on SWT might on the face of it sound
neat, as you rightly say it simply isn't as easy as that - in fact
it's not easy at all! (So I'm definitely not in the category of people
who think it could just be 'switched on'!) A while back someone who
seemed to be familiar with ITSO suggested that apart from season
tickets their other principal usage would be for pre-booked tickets -
so whilst that would encompass traditional specified train Advance
tickets (of which there aren't many on the SWT network), I guess it
could also include standard tickets purchased beforehand - perhaps
they might attract a discount if purchased online? In both cases the
'virtual tickets' could be picked up from the standalone smartcard
validators at stations.

I can't really see any benefit of issuing 'virtual tickets' on
smartcards which are purchased at booking offices or TVMs over issuing
paper tickets, but perhaps I'm just not being imaginative enough. I
guess single journey extensions to smartcard season tickets could also
be applied to the smartcard, instead of being issued as paper tickets.

I haven't read the DfT documentation on the South Western franchise -
does that provide any clues as to what ITSO smartcard ticketing should
be used for (and what advantages it might provide)? Or does it merely
say it should be implemented?

On Dec 14, 1:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Dec, 12:13, "Paul Scott" wrote:





"Mizter T" wrote:

Indeed - unless one could 'pick-up' a season ticket ordered online or
by phone by touching on the validator, or perhaps (ala Oyster) extend
a journey beyond the limits of the season ticket held. It would be
great if a straightforward pay-as-you-go functionality (again ala
Oyster) were to be implemented, but there are undeniably issues of
doing so on a network that has many ungated stations where it might be
misused/abused.

As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4..00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

Of course there's that too! But that is linked in to the issue of
gating - both are basically part of the more fundamental issue of
implementing a system which attempts to ensure passengers pay the
correct fare, along with attempting to eliminate or minimise
opportunities to 'work the system'.

The basic issue is one of intention - conventional pre-purchased
tickets spell out the passenger's intention of where they want to
travel (complex routing issues aside!), a pay-as-you-go system does
not.

Whilst a pay-as-you-go system on SWT might on the face of it sound
neat, as you rightly say it simply isn't as easy as that - in fact
it's not easy at all! (So I'm definitely not in the category of people
who think it could just be 'switched on'!) A while back someone who
seemed to be familiar with ITSO suggested that apart from season
tickets their other principal usage would be for pre-booked tickets -
so whilst that would encompass traditional specified train Advance
tickets (of which there aren't many on the SWT network), I guess it
could also include standard tickets purchased beforehand - perhaps
they might attract a discount if purchased online? In both cases the
'virtual tickets' could be picked up from the standalone smartcard
validators at stations.

I can't really see any benefit of issuing 'virtual tickets' on
smartcards which are purchased at booking offices or TVMs over issuing
paper tickets, but perhaps I'm just not being imaginative enough. I
guess single journey extensions to smartcard season tickets could also
be applied to the smartcard, instead of being issued as paper tickets.


I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

In uk.railway Andy wrote:
I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

I believe the Welsh Assembly is keen on an Oyster-alike for Cardiff and the
Valleys, which would seem a sensible target area.

It would also work for PAYG, as passengers should know that the
ticket isn't valid outside the metro area. But I don't know if you'd end up
with a separate PAYG balance for each place, or if someone would implement
a central 'bank of Oyster'.

(I know Barclaycard have PayWave, but that doesn't replace the Oyster
functionality because you really don't want PIN pads on ticket gates for the
N% of transactions that get referred).

Theo

On 14 Dec, 17:39, Theo Markettos
wrote:

In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Er Watford Junction is outside the London zones so a Travelcard is not
valid to travel there (a Travelcard plus boundary extension ticket
would be valid though). A Travelcard issued *from* Watford Junction is
valid for a single return journey from WJ into the zones - but then so
is a Travelcard issued *from* Milton Keynes (I presume such things
exist).


I believe the Welsh Assembly is keen on an Oyster-alike for Cardiff and the
Valleys, which would seem a sensible target area.

It would also work for PAYG, as passengers should know that the
ticket isn't valid outside the metro area. *But I don't know if you'd end up
with a separate PAYG balance for each place, or if someone would implement
a central 'bank of Oyster'.

See Paul Corfield's post downthread - if things do ever get off the
ground then the result will likely be a confusing mish-mash of
different and incompatible systems in different parts of the country,
none of which will offer any PAYG functionality.


(I know Barclaycard have PayWave, but that doesn't replace the Oyster
functionality because you really don't want PIN pads on ticket gates for the
N% of transactions that get referred).


And for the uninitiated N% of transactions would get referred not
because they were deemed suspicions but simply because that's how Visa
PayWave works - a PIN needs to be entered every now and then so as to
assure the system that the card is not stolen. Another issue is that
Visa PayWave is currently configured to only allow purchases below £10
to go through without a PIN. Any notion of there being a PIN pad on a
gate is of course totally unworkable.

On Dec 14, 5:39*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:
In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Though presumably to avoid massive abuse this would have to be
accompanied with a 'touch in and touch out' policy on buses and other
modes, which could be tricky with the one-door, tickets from the
driver approach adopted to bus operation in most areas other than
London.

Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country, or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.

On 14 Dec, 15:38, Andy wrote:

On Dec 14, 1:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(big snip)

I can't really see any benefit of issuing 'virtual tickets' on
smartcards which are purchased at booking offices or TVMs over issuing
paper tickets, but perhaps I'm just not being imaginative enough. I
guess single journey extensions to smartcard season tickets could also
be applied to the smartcard, instead of being issued as paper tickets.

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.


Aha, I knew I wasn't being very imaginative. Of course - a smartcard
carnet - that sounds workable. Passengers would just need to validate
their smartcard at their starting station to 'activate' the carnet, as
it were. Pre-ordered carnets could be picked up from the validators
too. Dunno how it would work when it came to breaking journeys though
- I suppose one easy answer, from SWT's point of view at least, is
that it wouldn't!

In message , at 12:13:10 on
Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Paul Scott remarked:
As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4.00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

For making a journey where you properly touch-in and touch-out, the
answer is simple. Use one of the combined Barclaycard/Oyster cards where
the traveller has a significant credit limit via the Barclaycard
element, which can be invoked when they touch out.

For unresolved journeys, there's a much bigger problem, even for people
with hundreds of pounds of cash on an Oyster. If someone touches-in in
London, do we now have to assume they failed to touch-out in Glasgow?
--
Roland Perry

On Dec 14, 5:58*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:13:10 on
Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Paul Scott remarked:

As I've suggested before it isn't just the gating question - the main issue
with PAYG on a large network with maximum peak single fares priced
approaching £50, is what amount does a prepay user need on his card, and
what initial deduction does the system make, comparable with TfL's £4.00
'entry charge'?

All those who think joint ITSO/Oyster prepay can be simply 'switched on' on
mainline TOCs please explain...

For making a journey where you properly touch-in and touch-out, the
answer is simple. Use one of the combined Barclaycard/Oyster cards where
the traveller has a significant credit limit via the Barclaycard
element, which can be invoked when they touch out.

For unresolved journeys, there's a much bigger problem, even for people
with hundreds of pounds of cash on an Oyster. If someone touches-in in
London, do we now have to assume they failed to touch-out in Glasgow?

More importantly, will the single fare for a one-mile journey in
London be increased to the price of a first class open Single from
Penzance to Thurso for anyone paying by cash?

And if not, why not? If it's not justifiable, then neither are the
current LU cash fares.