Normal crap service resumed
 

Went up to the sales on saturday. Coming back the piccadilly line was
fscked because of "a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean. Trains were all terminating at Arnos Grove
despite the fact theres a perfectly good crossover at Oakwood causing
trains to back up to finsbury park. As usual LU puts its own
convenience before that of its ripped off customers. Took hours to get
home and once there discovered that 2009 isn't an option on the
customer charter refund page. Tried it again - still not there. And if
you click on the contact us link it goes into an endless redirection
loop.

All that, a 6% fare rise and some militant ******* on strike in some
bus garage in Edgware today dliberately to muck up the journeys of
people on their first day back at work. Isn't public transport in
London just so wonderful?

I give up.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I give up.

Please do.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 5, 12:24*pm, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I give up.

Please do.

Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 04:43:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 5, 12:24*pm, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I give up.

Please do.

Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

How about giving up the tube completely, and giving up moaning about
it?

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 5, 2:03*pm, James Farrar wrote:
Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

How about giving up the tube completely, and giving up moaning about
it?

If it was free to use I wouldn't moan. It isn't free - it costs a
bloody fortune so I expect decent service not yet another random
selection from The LU Book Of Excuses. And if I can't have that I
expect to be able to apply for a refund - not be faced with a broken
website.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 5 Jan, 10:24, wrote:
Went up to the sales on saturday. Coming back the piccadilly line was
fscked because of "a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean. Trains were all terminating at Arnos Grove
despite the fact theres a perfectly good crossover at Oakwood causing
trains to back up to finsbury park. As usual LU puts its own
convenience before that of its ripped off customers. Took hours to get
home

Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

Patrick

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 10:57*am, Patrick Osborne wrote:
Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. *A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. *There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. *Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? *In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or
significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
(6ish) and some at Cockfosters (18ish). There are three reversing
platforms at Cockfosters; there is one at Arnos. If suddenly 24 trains
have to be reversed in the one platform, this is going to create some
fairly obvious bottlenecks.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. *There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. *They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. *They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

The excellent action will have been taken by Network Rail, although
FGW may have been involved in the planning process for What To Do If
There's A Failure.

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Normal crap service resumed
 

In article
,
(Patrick Osborne) wrote:

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

Just as well you won't going to Bath!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 12:31*pm, John B wrote:
On Jan 6, 10:57*am, Patrick Osborne wrote:

Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. *A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. *There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. *Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? *In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or
significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
(6ish) and some at Cockfosters (18ish). There are three reversing
platforms at Cockfosters; there is one at Arnos. If suddenly 24 trains
have to be reversed in the one platform, this is going to create some
fairly obvious bottlenecks.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. *There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. *They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. *They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

The excellent action will have been taken by Network Rail, although
FGW may have been involved in the planning process for What To Do If
There's A Failure.

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).


Trains can also be turned in Cockfosters depot from the Oakwood end.
Of course, this relies on there being staff at Oakwood, to check the
cars are empty before entering the depot. I do occasionally see an
Oakwood service on the line, especially when services are being
reduced at the end of the peaks or at the end of the day. Trains also
enter service from Oakwood at the start of service and at peak
periods.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 12:31*pm, John B wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

The knock on effects were caused (as usual), by terminators sitting at
arnos grove for ages before being sent back down the line. The concept
of stepping back seems to be a foreign one to the piccadilly line and
its staff.

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos

extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus

Its already got it. All it needs is for the staff to put some effort
into being ready for their train when it arrives and the signaller to
switch the route quickly. Arnos was a terminus anyway for a while
until the section to cockfosters was completed.

mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only

There is one - its called Oakwood.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 6 Jan, 12:31, John B wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or
significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
(6ish) and some at Cockfosters (18ish). There are three reversing
platforms at Cockfosters; there is one at Arnos. If suddenly 24 trains
have to be reversed in the one platform, this is going to create some
fairly obvious bottlenecks.

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).

I take your point about the depot and the smaller turning capacity of
Arnos Grove; I'd not considered these.

However, I really do think Boltar has a point here. It was mid-
afternoon, so most trains should have been out of the depot and
theoretically distributed evenly across the length of the line, thus
only a few would have been unavailable due to being trapped north of
Arnos Grove.

There is an additional turning point at Oakwood, apparently, so could
this not have been utilised? And although without having been there
at the time it's impossible to know for certain, but Boltar's claim of
trains sitting at Arnos Grove for AGES before turning around certainly
has the ring of truth to it, in my experience of the tube when things
go wrong. Why would they make trains wait for ages rather than
turning them around urgently? Does the signalling not permit it? If
not, why not? And how does it cope with the scheduled turnarounds at
Arnos Grove?

I'm really not a tube-basher and I think that on balance the tube does
pretty well at providing a service. However, I do think that they are
very unprepared for when things go wrong and seem incapable of dealing
with incidents quickly to stop them becoming major headaches.
Although of course it's easy to say that they could run things better
when we don't know all the constraints, but it does seem to me that
they could have done better in this instance, based of course on what
I've read here!

Patrick

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 6 Jan, 12:31, John B wrote:

(snips lots of worthwhile stuff)

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).


One thing that never seems to get a lot of focus in such situations is
the failed train - what failed, why, and can better maintenance
prevent it or rather more realistically lessen the frequency of such a
failure occurring. It seems to be taken as a given, on both LU and the
mainline railway, that trains fail - of course some will, but I'm not
so sure this should be taken as a given as much as it seems to be.

Connected to this - will the new 09TS for the Vic line and the new S
stock have some fancy but useful self-diagnostic systems on board, for
example? Maybe such things aren't that helpful but depot based systems
are - and in this context I mean system not just as in a computer but
a whole process. TBH I don't very little about the railway rolling
stock maintenance regimes that are in use and I'm sure that they have
advanced significantly over recent years (or at least I would hope
they have!) but I suspect more can be done.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 1:52*pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

OK, so depot isn't a major issue.

significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

The knock on effects were caused (as usual), by terminators sitting at
arnos grove for ages before being sent back down the line. The concept
of stepping back seems to be a foreign one to the piccadilly line and
its staff.

Indeed, it might be good to implement stepping back for emergency
reversals. And it's possible that it hasn't been put into place
because nobody cares about getting things going, or because of union
grumpery.

However, it's also possible that it hasn't been implemented because if
the line's in turmoil and all the trains (with drivers on board,
obviously) are stuck behind each other in tunnels along the route,
where exactly are you going to get hold of the extra spare drivers to
run the service? Do they sit around drinking tea at Arnos 29 days a
month just in case things go wrong? Presumably you need another chap
drinking tea at Northfields, and another at Hyde Park Corner, to cope
for failures at those locations...

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus

Its already got it. All it needs is for the staff to put some effort
into being ready for their train when it arrives and the signaller to
switch the route quickly.

I don't think that's true. The track layout at CULG implies that the
through platforms aren't reversible:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/piccadilly.html#layout
....giving you 1 reverser at a time instead of 3 at Cockfosters.

Arnos was a terminus anyway for a while
until the section to cockfosters was completed.

True, but I imagine they changed the signalling at the point when the
extension opened.

mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only

There is one - its called Oakwood.

No, that's a plain-track station with no reversing facilities. Trains
that are advertised as Oakwood terminators are going into the depot
(where they can be reversed, but complicatedly and slowly because
that's not what it's intended for).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 2:26*pm, Patrick Osborne wrote:
Why would they make trains wait for ages rather than
turning them around urgently? *Does the signalling not permit it? *If
not, why not? *And how does it cope with the scheduled turnarounds at
Arnos Grove?

Don't know; possibly not; possibly because it'd involve expensive
infrastructure upgrades that'd only occasionally be needed; and
because turning round a train in 10 minutes is a lot easier than
turning one around in 2m30s.

I'm really not a tube-basher and I think that on balance the tube does
pretty well at providing a service. *However, I do think that they are
very unprepared for when things go wrong and seem incapable of dealing
with incidents quickly to stop them becoming major headaches.

Information, when an incident is first starting to kick off, is the
worst bit. The number of times I've been on a service at a station
with multiple alternative options when things have gone wrong, and
have ended up picking the wrong one (despite having a better idea
about the system than most) because of inadequate/untimely/completely
false advice is definitely too high.

Although of course it's easy to say that they could run things better
when we don't know all the constraints, but it does seem to me that
they could have done better in this instance, based of course on what
I've read here!

It's difficult to say without knowing more about the problem (e.g. if
the broken train had broken coming out of the depot onto the
southbound=westbound between Cockfosters and Oakwood, then you
wouldn't be able to turn anything round north of Arnos and get it back
down south again), as you say.

I'm pretty certain there's someone at TfL charged with putting exactly
these kinds of questions to Picc and Tube Lines management, to ensure
that they do have the best contingencies possible given their
resources. It'd be nice to see exactly how that process works, and
what the problems were this time...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 2:34*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 6 Jan, 12:31, John B wrote:



(snips lots of worthwhile stuff)

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).

One thing that never seems to get a lot of focus in such situations is
the failed train - what failed, why, and can better maintenance
prevent it or rather more realistically lessen the frequency of such a
failure occurring. It seems to be taken as a given, on both LU and the
mainline railway, that trains fail - of course some will, but I'm not
so sure this should be taken as a given as much as it seems to be.

Connected to this - will the new 09TS for the Vic line and the new S
stock have some fancy but useful self-diagnostic systems on board, for
example? Maybe such things aren't that helpful but depot based systems
are - and in this context I mean system not just as in a computer but
a whole process. TBH I don't very little about the railway rolling
stock maintenance regimes that are in use and I'm sure that they have
advanced significantly over recent years (or at least I would hope
they have!) but I suspect more can be done.

This rings a bell digs around piles of dusty stuff.

"[The trains] incorporate 'tell-tale' train equipment panels ..."

From the Piccadilly Line progress report, dated 1976.

Ah, and from Brian Hardy in 1976 "Improvements incorporated in this
stock are ... a train equipment fault-finding panel for the driver's
use ...".

Funny how things stick in one's mind. No great relevance really.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 3:29*pm, John B wrote:
Indeed, it might be good to implement stepping back for emergency
reversals. And it's possible that it hasn't been put into place
because nobody cares about getting things going, or because of union
grumpery.

Wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with it. However they
can do it if they want to - the victoria line is a good example.

I don't think that's true. The track layout at CULG implies that the
through platforms aren't reversible:http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/piccadilly.html#layout
...giving you 1 reverser at a time instead of 3 at Cockfosters.

No , they're all reversable - even platform 4 southbound. I've been on
trains terminating in all of them at some point or the other.
Admittedly only once for platform 4.

True, but I imagine they changed the signalling at the point when the
extension opened.

Given how people constantly remind us how old it is I'm not so
sure! :o)

There is one - its called Oakwood.

No, that's a plain-track station with no reversing facilities. Trains
that are advertised as Oakwood terminators are going into the depot
(where they can be reversed, but complicatedly and slowly because
that's not what it's intended for).

Nope, theres a crossover at oakwood just south of the station. Don't
take my word for it - check it out on google earth/maps , its clearly
visible. Whether its in use or not however is another matter I guess.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 4:49*pm, wrote:
On Jan 6, 3:29*pm, John B wrote:

Indeed, it might be good to implement stepping back for emergency
reversals. And it's possible that it hasn't been put into place
because nobody cares about getting things going, or because of union
grumpery.

Wouldn't surprise me if that had something to do with it. However they
can do it if they want to - the victoria line is a good example.

I don't think that's true. The track layout at CULG implies that the
through platforms aren't reversible:http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/piccadilly.html#layout
...giving you 1 reverser at a time instead of 3 at Cockfosters.

No , they're all reversable - even platform 4 southbound. I've been on
trains terminating in all of them at some point or the other.
Admittedly only once for platform 4.

True, but I imagine they changed the signalling at the point when the
extension opened.

Given how people constantly remind us how old it is I'm not so
sure! :o)

There is one - its called Oakwood.

No, that's a plain-track station with no reversing facilities. Trains
that are advertised as Oakwood terminators are going into the depot
(where they can be reversed, but complicatedly and slowly because
that's not what it's intended for).

Nope, theres a crossover at oakwood just south of the station. Don't
take my word for it - check it out on google earth/maps , its clearly
visible. Whether its in use or not however is another matter I guess.

There is, and the latest Quail shows platform 2 as being
bidirectional.

Also, the crossovers at Arnos Grove are laid out for the sidings* to
be accessed from all platorms (and vice versa), so it's probably
intended that a train could go into any platform and then head south
(either into the sidings or down the line having left the sidings
previously). No point in having the crossover otherwise.

*South of the station.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 6 Jan, 16:38, MIG wrote:

On Jan 6, 2:34*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

One thing that never seems to get a lot of focus in such situations is
the failed train - what failed, why, and can better maintenance
prevent it or rather more realistically lessen the frequency of such a
failure occurring. It seems to be taken as a given, on both LU and the
mainline railway, that trains fail - of course some will, but I'm not
so sure this should be taken as a given as much as it seems to be.

Connected to this - will the new 09TS for the Vic line and the new S
stock have some fancy but useful self-diagnostic systems on board, for
example? Maybe such things aren't that helpful but depot based systems
are - and in this context I mean system not just as in a computer but
a whole process. TBH I don't very little about the railway rolling
stock maintenance regimes that are in use and I'm sure that they have
advanced significantly over recent years (or at least I would hope
they have!) but I suspect more can be done.

This rings a bell digs around piles of dusty stuff.

"[The trains] incorporate 'tell-tale' train equipment panels ..."

From the Piccadilly Line progress report, dated 1976.

Ah, and from Brian Hardy in 1976 "Improvements incorporated in this
stock are ... a train equipment fault-finding panel for the driver's
use ...".

Funny how things stick in one's mind. *No great relevance really.


Well, yes, if only to treat with a (un)healthy dose of salty
scepticism any claims that a new train is a self-diagnosing healing
machine.

I do like the optimism of a Piccadilly line progress report from 1976,
given that it opened in 1906! Not saying that that fact invalidates
the notion that progress is possible on such a line of course, as it
obviously is. Do LU still do yearly progress reports and call them
that, or was the report not part of an annual series and instead more
of a one-off?

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 6, 5:48*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 6 Jan, 16:38, MIG wrote:





On Jan 6, 2:34*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

One thing that never seems to get a lot of focus in such situations is
the failed train - what failed, why, and can better maintenance
prevent it or rather more realistically lessen the frequency of such a
failure occurring. It seems to be taken as a given, on both LU and the
mainline railway, that trains fail - of course some will, but I'm not
so sure this should be taken as a given as much as it seems to be.

Connected to this - will the new 09TS for the Vic line and the new S
stock have some fancy but useful self-diagnostic systems on board, for
example? Maybe such things aren't that helpful but depot based systems
are - and in this context I mean system not just as in a computer but
a whole process. TBH I don't very little about the railway rolling
stock maintenance regimes that are in use and I'm sure that they have
advanced significantly over recent years (or at least I would hope
they have!) but I suspect more can be done.

This rings a bell digs around piles of dusty stuff.

"[The trains] incorporate 'tell-tale' train equipment panels ..."

From the Piccadilly Line progress report, dated 1976.

Ah, and from Brian Hardy in 1976 "Improvements incorporated in this
stock are ... a train equipment fault-finding panel for the driver's
use ...".

Funny how things stick in one's mind. *No great relevance really.

Well, yes, if only to treat with a (un)healthy dose of salty
scepticism any claims that a new train is a self-diagnosing healing
machine.

I do like the optimism of a Piccadilly line progress report from 1976,
given that it opened in 1906! Not saying that that fact invalidates
the notion that progress is possible on such a line of course, as it
obviously is. Do LU still do yearly progress reports and call them
that, or was the report not part of an annual series and instead more
of a one-off?

Ah sorry, I think it was more specifically a Heathrow Extension
progress report. I don't know how many there might have been, because
it isn't numbered, so I'd cynically guess only one ever.

Normal crap service resumed
 

In message
,
John B writes
I don't think that's true. The track layout at CULG implies that the
through platforms aren't reversible:
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/picc...ayout...giving you 1
reverser at a time instead of 3 at Cockfosters.

It is quite possible to have 3 reversers (east to west) at the same time
at Arnos. Only platform 2/3 can reverse west to east though.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Normal crap service resumed
 

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 7, 10:14*pm, Stuart wrote:
wrote:
"a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean.

How can you not understand what that means?

Its very difficult to stall an electric motor so it won't turn and
impossible to stall a dozen of them simultaniously. Its basically
another LU buzzword bingo catch all phrase for a buggered up train
which could be anything from sized brakes to it becoming gapped and it
tells us nothing. Why they can't just say its broken down instead of
trying to sound in-the-know when they probably don't have a clue by
using a word such as stalled is anyones guess.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about 2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will not
roll - in either direction.

Because the train was gapped the compressors were not working, and with the
rear trip being operated (air escaping from the pressure switch) and several
attempts to get the brakes to release, the available air on the train
dropped below 3 bar at which point the train was not going to move no matter
what unless it got back onto traction current.

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads
(basically a 640 volt extension lead, with a plug to go into the side of the
train on one end and a pair of shoes to go onto an adjacent possie and
neggie rail on the other) that were stored locally to where trains could be
gapped. Sadly LU's reading of the electricity at work act coupled with the
current elf n' safety fetish has meant that gap jumpers have been deemed to
be a BAD THING and have been removed from the majority of sites where we
used to have them just in case someone who doesn't know what their doing
tries to play with them.

So, we've got a train sitting just outside CK preventing any other train
going west from CK. We can get eastbound trains into P1 and P2/3 but the
only place they can go after that is into the depot. (Which is what we did
with the 3 trains that were stuck in section between OK & CK.) We can
reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and
station staff, but despite our best efforts we were unable to move the
train.

The ERU (Emergency Response Unit) had also been summoned and they were
diverted to fetch the one set of gap jumpers known to be available.

These were at Golders Green, the ERU were coming from Vauxhall so we ain't
talking instant response here.

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable. So
we got everyone into the car closest to the platform, cleared any trains
between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down, out with the train's
detrainment ladder, walked the 15 customers off the train and onto CK
platform, SCDs up, detrainment ladder back up and juice back on. The juice
was off from 16:04 to 16:10. The current section runs from Cockfosters to
Southgate, so we lost the OK reversing facility whilst the detrainment took
place. This translated into about a 20 minute period that we had no trains
running between AG and OK. Up until the detrainment we had been reversing at
the 3 sites available to us. Once the detrainment had been completed we
resumed OK reversing whilst we waited for the ERU to turn up with our jump
leads.

The ERU arrived on site at 17:05, we got the jump leads to the train. At
this point we had to again get some trains out of section and so discharged
TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We then had to let
the air on the train build up, moved the train forward the 2 feet required
to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off at 17:30, removed the
jumpers, juice back on at 17:35, train on the move at 17:36, delay 167
minutes.

Whilst all this was going on, a track failure at Wood Green meant that we
lost the WG reversing facility from about 16:30 onwards.

The various discharges of traction current meant that we were not able to
reverse at Oakwood from about 16:00 to 16:20 and from 17:10 to 17:40.

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If you
want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that the
Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one
of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.

Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 9, 3:38*am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"John B" wrote in message

...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about 2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will not
roll - in either direction.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation (which I won't repeat).

The bit I don't understand is how a whole train can be gapped. Could
you clarify how that can occur (and why it isn't avoided for that
matter)? How many shoes need to be in contact for movement to be
possible, compressors to work etc?

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 9, 3:38*am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
gapped. Sadly LU's reading of the electricity at work act coupled with the
current elf n' safety fetish has meant that gap jumpers have been deemed to
be a BAD THING and have been removed from the majority of sites where we
used to have them just in case someone who doesn't know what their doing
tries to play with them.

Thats just bloody dumb. I suspect even the nappy wearers at the H&SE
would assume that an electric railway sometimes requires people to
work with electricity! Someone in LU management needs a kicking.

These were at Golders Green, the ERU were coming from Vauxhall so we ain't
talking instant response here.

Words for once fail me.

The various discharges of traction current meant that we were not able to
reverse at Oakwood from about 16:00 to 16:20 and from 17:10 to 17:40.

If the announcements had just said that the power supply had to be
switched off to detrain passengers instead of just saying "stalled
train. the end" all would have been explained.

Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one

So i'm guessing you don't own a car and had to borrow one so why
didn't the owner of the car drive up there? I won't ask about
insurance :)

of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.

Look at it from a passengers point of view stuck in a tunnel yet again
north of finsbury park with no information. Lets be honest , its not
the first time this has happened. In the end me and the wife ended up
getting a train back southbound to finsbury park to catch FCC which by
then was offering a once every 20 mins service. Ended up at new
southgate (no service on the hertford north line it appeared) and
waiting in the cold for a 382 bus for another 20 mins which then
proceeded to go around every damn side street it could find. Ended up
taking not far off 2 hours to get home from central london. It only
takes 3 hours to walk it! (I had to do just that on 7/7).

Anyway , I take back what I said about LU staff. It seems your knob
headed management caused this by removing all the gap leads. Bunch of
****s.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

In message of Fri, 9
Jan 2009 03:38:34 in uk.transport.london, Steve Dulieu
writes

Thanks for a REALLY interesting posting. It would do no harm for the TfL
website to have similar reports for those few customers interested.
(Pleasedon't count this as top-posting).


"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the

It took me a while to be confident that CK means Cockfosters. You use
several other two letter station codes. Where is the set publicly
available?

[snip]
The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then

Presumably Train Operator or driver in normal parlance, but planes are
driven by pilots and ships by helmsmen.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where
it was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train
will not roll - in either direction.

I presume that is a bit of track where most carriage lighting vanishes.
(I guess residual lighting comes from batteries.) Why are such gaps
needed?

[snip]

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads

Standard Operating Procedure

CK.) We can reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood.

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and

District Manager (Trains)? Completely Fouled Dam Trains?

[snip]

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed
a desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which,
given that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not
unreasonable. So we got everyone into the car closest to the platform,

I love that summary of the customers' perspective. Was the driver able
to use announcements for customer communication during the whole of the
incident to this point.

cleared any trains between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down,

SCD?

discharged TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We

Train Current? "discharged TC" = "switched track power off"?

then had to let the air on the train build up, moved the train forward
the 2 feet required to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off

0.6m?

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If
you want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that
the Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not
driven a car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that
at least one of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was
actually sh*tting himself.
Is the ability to drive a car part of your job?
Should it not be exercised formally and regularly?
You are plainly too valuable a member of staff to risk as described.
(Not to mention elfin safety.)

Could a C.S.A. (Customer Service Assistant) have been your driver?
The 40 minutes you would have had to budget to travel by 298 bus is
probably excessive. A Taxi account would probably be better.
On the other hand, I am sure stress probably affected those dealing with
the situation.


Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.

2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?
2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Thank you again for a REALLY interesting report.
Thanks to Boltar for THIS thread that stimulated your response.
--
Walter Briscoe

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 9, 11:24*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?
2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Wonder if it would be possible to have some sort of creep mode that
would work off the train batteries that could move it forward a couple
of metres at a crawl on level ground. It would probably drain the
battery in seconds but would solve gapping issues if the bedwetters
have decided gap leads are too dangerous to be used.

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 3:38 am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"John B" wrote in message

...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the
platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about
2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will
not
roll - in either direction.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation (which I won't repeat).

The bit I don't understand is how a whole train can be gapped. Could
you clarify how that can occur (and why it isn't avoided for that
matter)? How many shoes need to be in contact for movement to be
possible, compressors to work etc?

You need one positive and one negative shoe on current. Because of all the
point work at CK there are numerous gaps in the juice rails. Had the train
stopped two feet in either direction it would not have become gapped.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

Normal crap service resumed
 

"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
...
In message of Fri, 9 Jan
2009 03:38:34 in uk.transport.london, Steve Dulieu
writes

Thanks for a REALLY interesting posting. It would do no harm for the TfL
website to have similar reports for those few customers interested.
(Pleasedon't count this as top-posting).


"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the

It took me a while to be confident that CK means Cockfosters. You use
several other two letter station codes. Where is the set publicly
available?


Not sure that there is a publicly available set, sorry...

[snip]
The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then

Presumably Train Operator or driver in normal parlance,

Correct...

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will
not roll - in either direction.

I presume that is a bit of track where most carriage lighting vanishes. (I
guess residual lighting comes from batteries.) Why are such gaps needed?

Correct, gaps are to allow for points, section isolation, current section
change overs...


[snip]

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads

Standard Operating Procedure

CK.) We can reverse trains at WG, AG & OK (which is what we did).

Wood Green, Arnos Grove and Oakwood.

Correct...

The Arnos DMT drove up to CK, along with Tubelines staff from CFDT and

District Manager (Trains)? Completely Fouled Dam Trains?

Duty Manager Trains. CockFosters DepoT...

[snip]

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable.
So we got everyone into the car closest to the platform,

I love that summary of the customers' perspective. Was the driver able to
use announcements for customer communication during the whole of the
incident to this point.

Yes...

cleared any trains between AG and OK, knocked the juice off, SCDs down,

SCD?

Short Circuiting Device, basiclly a big metal bar with a magnet on each end
that you put across the juice rails once TC has been discharged and you want
to move about in a safe area on the track. Should TC be recharged
inadvertantly the SCD causes a circuit breaker to operate which knocks the
juice off again...

discharged TC at 17:15, deployed the jumpers, recharged at 17:20. We

Train Current? "discharged TC" = "switched track power off"?

Traction Current and correct...

then had to let the air on the train build up, moved the train forward the
2 feet required to get it back on juice, knocked the juice back off

0.6m?

Yup...

So, Mr. B, I'm sorry that for you "Normal Crap Service" was resumed, we
didn't do it deliberately and believe it or not some of us do care. If you
want to get a chuckle out of the whole sorry saga, when I said that the
Arnos DMT drove to CK, that man was me, only problem is I had not driven a
car since 1990, so you can comfort yourself with thought that at least one
of the bone idle useless layabouts who work for LU was actually sh*tting
himself.
Is the ability to drive a car part of your job?
Should it not be exercised formally and regularly?

The ability to drive is not actually part of the job description, I hold a
valid driving license, however I don't own a car myself. The vehicle was the
Arnos Grove incident response vehicle (a white and blue Zafiera with
flashing orange lights on the top) which all DMTs are insured to drive. At
the time of the incident I was the only person available to drive it so it
was a case of gird loins, deep breath and off we go. Any spare station staff
floating about were down at Finsbury Park for the footie at Arsenal. In
actual fact, the drive up to Cockfosters was not too bad, nice bright sunny
day and not much traffic. Getting the car back was a bit of a bugger though,
dark, bloody cold and of course I'm trying to get it out of Cockfosters car
park along with god knows how many Gooners following the match at Arsenal.

You are plainly too valuable a member of staff to risk as described.
(Not to mention elfin safety.)

You are too kind...

Could a C.S.A. (Customer Service Assistant) have been your driver?
The 40 minutes you would have had to budget to travel by 298 bus is
probably excessive. A Taxi account would probably be better.
On the other hand, I am sure stress probably affected those dealing with
the situation.

We have a Taxi account, however it would have still taken a good 30-40
minutes to get a cab so the response vehicle was the prefered option.

Disclaimer: All opininions are my own.

2 obvious questions:
1) Was there train operator error?

No...

2) Should jumper availability be reviewed? e.g. Put them in a locked
cupboard with a notice indicating the criteria for opening the cupboard.
The expected return period of such a cost (delay in powering the train)
would have to be balanced against the cost of more availability.

Well personally I think it's a spectacularly dumb idea not to have them
available, but then having spent over two hours freezing my gribblies off up
at Cockfosters on Saturday I suppose I'm biased. Had they been available the
train would have been moving in about 30 minutes rather than 167. I suspect
that cost as much as anything is behind the decision to remove them, they
require periodic testing (not cheap) and any staff using them would need
training and annual refresher training (really not cheap).

Thank you again for a REALLY interesting report.

You're most welcome...
Thanks to Boltar for THIS thread that stimulated your response.

--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

Normal crap service resumed
 

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
om...

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable.

What always puzzles me, as a passenger, in this kind of situation is why on
earth passengers are made to wait (in this case) 45 minutes before being
allowed to get off the train. It really is inconvenient and, while I realise
that problems do happen, surely we should be allowed to get off the train
ASAP and get on with our lives.

I would go bananas if I had to sit for 45 minutes with what I presume was
little or no information.

Ian

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 9, 1:28*pm, "Ian F." wrote:
"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message

om...

Whilst this was going on, the customers on the stalled train expressed a
desire to get off and continue their journey by other means, which, given
that they had now been sitting there for 45 minutes was not unreasonable.

What always puzzles me, as a passenger, in this kind of situation is why on
earth passengers are made to wait (in this case) 45 minutes before being
allowed to get off the train. It really is inconvenient and, while I realise
that problems do happen, surely we should be allowed to get off the train
ASAP and get on with our lives.

I would go bananas if I had to sit for 45 minutes with what I presume was
little or no information.

On the main lines passengers in this situation have regularly thought
bugger it and let themselves off the train either through the
emergency door release or chucking something heavy through a window.
Then railway companies act all surprised and come out with stern
warnings against it. They seem to forget we're people, not cattle in a
pen and people arn't going to sit around for ever if they've had
enough and can get out. The tube doesn't have any obvious door release
mechanisms inside the carraiges so thats out , so it would be a window
job or get out the front door in the drivers cab. Though that 4th rail
would make it a bit tricky :)

B2003

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 9 Jan, 12:36, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Jan 9, 3:38 am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote:





"John B" wrote in message

....
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)

At about 14:53 a train departed CK platform 4, as it got out of the
platform
it became rear-tripped, coming to a halt with the rear of the train about
2
metres out of the platform.

The T/Op went through his checks and identified the problem. He then set
about getting the train moving.

Sadly this is when it went all man-boobs up.

The train had come to a stand on the one bit of track leaving CK where it
was completely off juice (gapped in LU jargon) AND where the train will
not
roll - in either direction.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation (which I won't repeat).

The bit I don't understand is how a whole train can be gapped. *Could
you clarify how that can occur (and why it isn't avoided for that
matter)? *How many shoes need to be in contact for movement to be
possible, compressors to work etc?

You need one positive and one negative shoe on current. Because of all the
point work at CK there are numerous gaps in the juice rails. Had the train
stopped two feet in either direction it would not have become gapped.

Looking at the layout, I guess that the train would be accross four
sets of points. Still seems very unlucky though.

Normal crap service resumed
 

In uk.transport.london message
dia.com, Fri, 9 Jan 2009 03:38:34, Steve Dulieu steve.dulieu@greenyond
er.co.uk posted:

The SOP for this situation used to be to get a set of gap jumper leads
(basically a 640 volt extension lead, with a plug to go into the side
of the train on one end and a pair of shoes to go onto an adjacent
possie and neggie rail on the other) that were stored locally to where
trains could be gapped.

ISTM that each train could be equipped with an electric cable long
enough to reach either to the cable of a nearby train or to a shoe
assembly (or with an SCD, a winch, some rope, and an anchor).

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Proper = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (SonOfRFC1036)

Normal crap service resumed
 

On 2009-01-09, Steve Dulieu wrote:



"John B" wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 1:52 pm, wrote:
1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or

MId to late afternoon.

Right boys n' girls, this is what happened...

(I have simplified this a bit but it's still gonna' be long)


Detail much appreciated, thanks, Steve.

And this might just serve as a reminder to some of us that every
disruption has a long story behind it, if only we could find the right
person to tell the story.

E.

Normal crap service resumed
 

On Jan 11, 8:11*pm, Eric wrote:
And this might just serve as a reminder to some of us that every
disruption has a long story behind it, if only we could find the right
person to tell the story.

It still didn't explain why they couldn't implement stepping back at
Arnos Grove or why the trains sit their forever instead of leaving
again immediately. When theres a problem like this its not business as
usual , lets take our own sweet time. The staff need to pull their
fingers out occasionally whether its the signaller, the drivers or
both at fault. Unfortunately they dont' seem to be bothered.

B2003