On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:19:23 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Actually getting a bus between these stations is nigh-on unforgivable
anyway.

In Euston's case it is almost certainly slower as well.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Jan 14, 6:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Jan, 15:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:57 in uk.transport.london,
writes

(snip)

a possible related case:
what happens if someone on pre-pay hops on the 73/30/205/etc etc to
perform their outerchange between Euston Square and Euston ?

I believe the possibly complete journey at Euston Square is completed by
touching in on the bus. I had something similar when, failing to touch
out at Finchley Central, I boarded a bus. I was charged for an
unfinished journey.

Yes - touching-in on a bus will 'reset' the Oyster card and it will no
longer be thinking that the Tube journey might continue via an
outerchange (IYSWIM).



what happens if someone with a bus pass (who is using pre-pay for an
unaccustomed tube journey) does the same?

I expect the journey consists of 3 legs - one already paid. Walking
between Euston Square and Euston means that the possibly complete
journey at Euston Square is restarted.

Yes.

Actually getting a bus between these stations is nigh-on unforgivable
anyway.



The Journey Planner shows Hayes & Harlington Rail Station - Ealing
Broadway Station + Take the Route Bus 607 to Acton Central Rail Station
- Hackney Central Rail Station. It takes about 20 minutes longer than
* most routes using zone 1, but will give the 1.10 charge on top of a 2/3
TravelCard.

I am more interested in a journey including a walk between Euston Square
and Euston which takes longer than 2.5 hours. It ought to be viewed as 2
journeys, but, I suspect, would be assessed as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey.

I agree with your assessment - I think it would be viewed as an
incomplete journey.

Out-Of-Station-Interchanges (OOSI) - or 'Outerchanges' - are great,
but they do seem to present a problem when it comes to journeys
'timing out'. There is a time-limit to outerchanges - i.e. the time
allowed for a passenger to get from one station to the other - but I
think it's quite generous (understandably).


I don't see why this would be charged as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey. Surely if the OOSI has timed out, then the journey
arriving at Euston Square will be completed and a new journey will be
started when touching in at Euston later. The OOSI is 30 mins from
Euston Square to Euston LU, or 50 mins to Euston National Rail. There
was a thread about these recently.

On Jan 14, 6:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
-----
[1] Nearly all outerchanges simply comprise of twinned pairs of
stations - but this need not be the case. Baker Street LU, Marylebone
LU and Marylebone NR are all part of the same big outerchange (there
being separate NR and LU gatelines are Marylebone). Off the top of my
head I can't think of any others like that at the mo.

Forgot to add my reply to this. The interchanges are all between pairs
of gatelines, the outerchanges are not between the stations, but
between the different gatelines. Hence the above Euston Square -
Euston has two OOSIs, to Euston LU and Euston NR and there is also the
Euston NR to LU with a 45 min time limit.

Interestingly, your example is even more complex, as there is also
Marylebone NR to Edgware Road H&C OOSI.

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:19:23 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes
On 14 Jan, 15:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:57 in uk.transport.london,
writes

[snip]

I am more interested in a journey including a walk between Euston Square
and Euston which takes longer than 2.5 hours. It ought to be viewed as 2
journeys, but, I suspect, would be assessed as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey.


I agree with your assessment - I think it would be viewed as an
incomplete journey.

That would cost 4UKP; the actual cost is 8! I find it OUTRAGEOUS that
gates do this without audible warning.


Out-Of-Station-Interchanges (OOSI) - or 'Outerchanges' - are great,
but they do seem to present a problem when it comes to journeys
'timing out'. There is a time-limit to outerchanges - i.e. the time
allowed for a passenger to get from one station to the other - but I
think it's quite generous (understandably).

The list at http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm is correct apart
from Canary Wharf LU - Heron Quays DLR 10. I followed up my FOI answer
and was told this is 30. That makes the interchange symmetrical.


This does present the problem of what happens if someone starts at
point A and arrives at one station (point B) which is twinned [1] with
another for outerchange purposes and stays there for a short time -
for example, enough time to go and pick up a friend or return some
clothes to a shop or have a quick pint - and then enters the other of
the twinned outerchange stations (point C), before leaving the system
at another station (point D).

If that person is quick enough then the system will presume they are
resuming their journey - and if the total journey time from entry at
point A to exit at point D exceeds 2 1/2 hrs, then this will be
assessed as an incomplete journey. (Note that the same would apply if
they returned to their original stating station - i.e. went from point
A via point B and point C back to point A.)

Have you tested this? I am happy to do so, but don't want to re-invent.

[snip]

-----
[1] Nearly all outerchanges simply comprise of twinned pairs of
stations - but this need not be the case. Baker Street LU, Marylebone
LU and Marylebone NR are all part of the same big outerchange (there
being separate NR and LU gatelines are Marylebone). Off the top of my
head I can't think of any others like that at the mo.

King's Cross?

Curiously, Edgware Road (M&C) is twinned with London Marylebone, but
not with the others and not with Edgware Road (Bakerloo). Paddington
gives a more convenient interchange.

Have you looked at
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan
ges-current.html#links?

I believe, currently and temporarily (while escalators are rebuilt), the
following pairs are free - probably with 30 minute timers - Bank and
(Cannon Street or Mansion House or Monument). [On Saturday, I was
surprised to find people entering Monument eastbound from Bank. Staff
told me it was one way and I did not feel like breaching the "No Entry"
iconic sign.)
--
Walter Briscoe

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:49:22 in uk.transport.london,
writes
On Jan 14, 3:50*pm, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:57 in uk.transport.london,
writes
Your use of outerchange is something I do not recognise.
How did you get from Hayes & Harlington (Journey Planner does not
recognise Hayes and Harlington) to Shepherd's Bush. Which Shepherd's
Bush? I see routes via Willeden Junction/

Hayes - Ealing - Shepherd's Bush central line - Shepherd's Bush LO -
Hackney Central (an unusual direct train - i think 1840 or
thereabouts)

Get a PAYG Oyster for Hayes - Ealing Broadway ( I assume you mean that
one) and use your travelcard for the rest. That probably won't work
either. OTOH, Turnham Green to Paddington via Ealing Broadway (and
Heathrow Connect) is a Z21 journey.


The Journey Planner shows Hayes & Harlington Rail Station - Ealing
Broadway Station + Take the Route Bus 607 to Acton Central Rail Station
- Hackney Central Rail Station. It takes about 20 minutes longer than
* most routes using zone 1, but will give the 1.10 charge on top of a 2/3
TravelCard.

yes, i have done that before - but the Route Bus is not very fast
through Acton and it stops on the wrong side of the park from the
station.

It's probably true that it would have been faster to go to liverpool
street and get off at hackney downs. Changing at Highbury didn't occur
to me.

--
Walter Briscoe

On 14 Jan, 21:13, Walter Briscoe wrote:
[On Saturday, I was
surprised to find people entering Monument eastbound from Bank. Staff
told me it was one way and I did not feel like breaching the "No Entry"
iconic sign.)

That's right. The only underground connection currently open between
Bank and Monument is the up escalator from the Northern Line to the
District & Circle Eastbound. I used it this morning. The other
escalator is hoarded off for repairs, and there is no fixed stair.

PaulO

On Jan 14, 9:57*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:36:30 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

On Jan 14, 6:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:
-----
[1] Nearly all outerchanges simply comprise of twinned pairs of
stations - but this need not be the case. Baker Street LU, Marylebone
LU and Marylebone NR are all part of the same big outerchange (there
being separate NR and LU gatelines are Marylebone). Off the top of my
head I can't think of any others like that at the mo.

Forgot to add my reply to this. The interchanges are all between pairs
of gatelines, the outerchanges are not between the stations, but
between the different gatelines. Hence the above Euston Square -
Euston has two OOSIs, to Euston LU and Euston NR and there is also the
Euston NR to LU with a 45 min time limit.

This isn't quite correct. *OSIs have always been capable of having more
than two gatelines. *It may have changed for Oyster (but I doubt it) but
when I was involved in creating the data many years ago OSIs had
"sides". It was possible to have several sides as your example
illustrates. *Each side was defined by the NLC - Kings Cross for example
had 4 sides - KX Tube, KX Met and Circle, KX Great Northern, KX City
Thameslink. * The gateline is not encoded on the ticket when it is read
- the NLC is encoded and the gate at any other "side" of the OSI will
check that and time of last exit to determine if an OSI interchange is
to be permitted or not.

Ahh, I was going by the different timings for similar locations and
extrapolating; I find the times given for Euston to be a bit strange.
30mins Euston LU to Euston Square, 45min Euston LU to Euston NR and 50
mins Euston Square to Euston NR. The five minute difference, for the
last two, seems a bit weird to me, as it is more than 5 mins 'easy'
walk from Euston Square gates to Euston NR gates.

Maybe I should have used location, instead of gateline, I wasn't
trying to imply that different exits from a particular station had
different times (although I see that King's Cross still has a separate
entry for the Met/Circle line)

On 14 Jan, 21:13, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:19:23 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

On 14 Jan, 15:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:57 in uk.transport.london,
writes

[snip]

I am more interested in a journey including a walk between Euston Square
and Euston which takes longer than 2.5 hours. It ought to be viewed as 2
journeys, but, I suspect, would be assessed as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey.

I agree with your assessment - I think it would be viewed as an
incomplete journey.

That would cost 4UKP; the actual cost is 8! I find it OUTRAGEOUS that
gates do this without audible warning.


Sorry, yes, that's what I mean. I remember when this first came up
here (the problem outerchange was Bow Church to Bow Road or v.v.), and
it took a bit of deciphering as to what had gone on, specifically why
the system had applied two separate £4 (aka 'max cash fare') charges.
It is as you say because the system assumes there has been an
incomplete journey and another 'unstarted' journey.


Out-Of-Station-Interchanges (OOSI) - or 'Outerchanges' - are great,
but they do seem to present a problem when it comes to journeys
'timing out'. There is a time-limit to outerchanges - i.e. the time
allowed for a passenger to get from one station to the other - but I
think it's quite generous (understandably).

The list at http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm is correct apart
from Canary Wharf LU - Heron Quays DLR 10. I followed up my FOI answer
and was told this is 30. That makes the interchange symmetrical.


Thanks (though can't see it at the mo as the webserver is down!). Yes
I was vaguely aware that you'd been looking into this with the London
Reconnections blog mob - I must do better in following said weblog.


This does present the problem of what happens if someone starts at
point A and arrives at one station (point B) which is twinned [1] with
another for outerchange purposes and stays there for a short time -
for example, enough time to go and pick up a friend or return some
clothes to a shop or have a quick pint - and then enters the other of
the twinned outerchange stations (point C), before leaving the system
at another station (point D).

If that person is quick enough then the system will presume they are
resuming their journey - and if the total journey time from entry at
point A to exit at point D exceeds 2 1/2 hrs, then this will be
assessed as an incomplete journey. (Note that the same would apply if
they returned to their original stating station - i.e. went from point
A via point B and point C back to point A.)

Have you tested this? I am happy to do so, but don't want to re-invent.

Inadvertantly yes - I went to Hammersmith to return something to a
shop, arrived at the District line station, left by the H&C line
station, and then when I tried to exit the system found my card was
suddenly in negative balance as I'd got whacked with the £8 charge -
i.e. two £4 charges (as discussed above). The total journey from
starting point A to end point D had indeed exceeded two hours (the
then permissible journey time limit) - but I hadn't been trying to
squeeze my sojourn in Hammersmith into the permissible period for an
outerchange (not that I knew what it was) in order that I only had to
pay for one journey, I was literally there to take something back to a
shop.

Stupidly I should have taken this up with Oyster Customer services but
I didn't - it was a busy time, the Oyster card was unregistered and by
the time I got round to doing something about it the 8 week (?) period
for querying a journey on Oyster had passed. So an £8 donation to TfL,
but it was my own fault!

I have since taken advantage of the extended outerchange time period a
few times, but not in any way that's sneaky at all, just normal stuff
like quickly popping in to a shop to buy a sandwich or a couple of
missing ingredients or a bottle of plonk or something. I suppose I
wouldn't have done so if I wasn't aware that the time allowance is
pretty generous, nor would I have done so (or do so in the future) if
I was midway through a long journey - these would all be shorter
journeys which, even with a short stop in the middle, wouldn't come
close to reaching 2 hours.


[snip]

-----
[1] Nearly all outerchanges simply comprise of twinned pairs of
stations - but this need not be the case. Baker Street LU, Marylebone
LU and Marylebone NR are all part of the same big outerchange (there
being separate NR and LU gatelines are Marylebone). Off the top of my
head I can't think of any others like that at the mo.

King's Cross?

Yes I suppose so. As well as the two Underground station gatelines
there's also KX suburban (FCC) and also St. Pancras for Thameslink
(also FCC).


Curiously, *Edgware Road (M&C) is twinned with London Marylebone, but
not with the others and not with Edgware Road (Bakerloo). Paddington
gives a more convenient interchange.

Have you looked at
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....tion-interchan
ges-current.html#links?

I must admit I had only glanced at the London Reconnections entries on
the OOSI issue before bookmarking them to look at later - going
through it all and digesting it was on my ever-growing 'to-do' list!
If there's been recent discussion here as a result of this list then I
missed that too.

I've just now opened up the spreadsheet. Commendations are due for
extracting this information from TfL!

The lack of twinning of the Edgware Road stations is a little bit odd
I guess, but pretty much anyone who might want to interchange via
these two stations would be better off doing so somewhere else - i.e.
at Paddington (as you point out) or Baker Street - and the Tube map
and line diagrams are fairly clear in pointing this out. I dare say
that perhaps one of the stations should really be renamed, but that's
a whole other issue in itself!

I must say I hadn't quite realised that Marylebone NR and Edgware Road
(Circle and H&C) were twinned, though I'd never really though about
it, but it makes every bit of sense that they are (esp. with it being
the start point of the Wimbleware service). I wonder how well this is
known and understood amongst Chiltern's Oyster PAYG using contingent?


I believe, currently and temporarily (while escalators are rebuilt), the
following pairs are free - probably with 30 minute timers - Bank and
(Cannon Street or Mansion House or Monument). [...]


I took a bit of time to decipher what you meant there when you were
talking about free pairs to realise you meant OOSIs (aka
outerchanges). I wonder if there's something to be said for retaining
them - in particular the Mansion House to Bank outerchange, rather
than make pax stay on/get on the District/Circle for two extra stops.
When Oyster PAYG comes to NR, then Cannon Street NR to Bank needs to
be an outerchange too.

Looking at other stuff in this area, I'm very pleased to see that
Fenchurch Street is twinned with Bank/Monument - I'm all in favour of
people stretching their legs a bit in order to facilitate making a
useful change like that. I think quite a few 'c2c-ers' change at West
Ham for the Jubilee into the West End, which is a bit of a round the
houses way of doing it! A short perambulation down Fenchurch and
Lombard Streets to the Central line might better suit many of them.

Actually, really good work on getting hold of this Walter - it's most
interesting stuff. When Oyster PAYG comes to NR then this outerchange
business is going to get a whole lot more complicated!

On Jan 14, 8:28*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jan 14, 6:19*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On 14 Jan, 15:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:20:57 in uk.transport.london,
writes

(snip)

a possible related case:
what happens if someone on pre-pay hops on the 73/30/205/etc etc to
perform their outerchange between Euston Square and Euston ?

I believe the possibly complete journey at Euston Square is completed by
touching in on the bus. I had something similar when, failing to touch
out at Finchley Central, I boarded a bus. I was charged for an
unfinished journey.

Yes - touching-in on a bus will 'reset' the Oyster card and it will no
longer be thinking that the Tube journey might continue via an
outerchange (IYSWIM).

what happens if someone with a bus pass (who is using pre-pay for an
unaccustomed tube journey) does the same?

I expect the journey consists of 3 legs - one already paid. Walking
between Euston Square and Euston means that the possibly complete
journey at Euston Square is restarted.

Yes.

Actually getting a bus between these stations is nigh-on unforgivable
anyway.

The Journey Planner shows Hayes & Harlington Rail Station - Ealing
Broadway Station + Take the Route Bus 607 to Acton Central Rail Station
- Hackney Central Rail Station. It takes about 20 minutes longer than
* most routes using zone 1, but will give the 1.10 charge on top of a 2/3
TravelCard.

I am more interested in a journey including a walk between Euston Square
and Euston which takes longer than 2.5 hours. It ought to be viewed as 2
journeys, but, I suspect, would be assessed as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey.

I agree with your assessment - I think it would be viewed as an
incomplete journey.

Out-Of-Station-Interchanges (OOSI) - or 'Outerchanges' - are great,
but they do seem to present a problem when it comes to journeys
'timing out'. There is a time-limit to outerchanges - i.e. the time
allowed for a passenger to get from one station to the other - but I
think it's quite generous (understandably).

I don't see why this would be charged as an incomplete and an
unstarted journey. Surely if the OOSI has timed out, then the journey
arriving at Euston Square will be completed and a new journey will be
started when touching in at Euston later. The OOSI is 30 mins from
Euston Square to Euston LU, or 50 mins to Euston National Rail. There
was a thread about these recently.-

Yes, in fact the lack of timeout was a reported problem in the past.

That is, someone did a long journey, stopped to do some stuff, then
started a second long journey at a nearby station, such that the pair
of long journeys exceeded the time allowed for one journey, but it was
still counted as an outerchange, so the the whole journey was deemed
unresolved.

On Jan 14, 5:41*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 14 Jan, 14:16, wrote:

On Jan 14, 12:22*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Oyster decided that my journey was long enough that it must have
gone through zone 1, and charged me £2.70.

Quite a regular question, this one. The answer is always that 'certain
journey pairs are deemed to be via zone 1'.

Yes, I've lurked a while and got that impression.
I just wondered whether the bus trick might solve the problem until
they implement a better system.
But I don't know if a bus journey actually cancels an outerchange, or
if it would still count if it was within the time limit.

I've posted an extensive reply downthread, but I'll just add that yes,
touching-in on a bus does cancel the 'outerchange' - so your "bus
trick" would work.



Also, it only works for me because I have a travelcard, and because
there is a bus station between the two real stations at SB. I wonder
if ticket offices can force a journey to be completed, possibly by
selling some kind of zero-priced "null oyster journey".

I think you would be met with total blank stares at a ticket office if
you tried to ask for that! I dare say there might be some obscure way
of doing this via an Oyster terminal in a ticket office but it's
nothing I've ever heard of before.


It doesn't really answer this question, but I was a bit nervous when
topping up my Oyster during an outerchange (at a machine), but it
didn't cancel the outerchange.