The "Lasso Line"
 

Both the London Lite and the Evening Standard today carried news about
changes to the Circle Line due this December. The level of journalism isn't
the best - both talked about the "Hammersmith & City Line" being "extended"
from Aldgate to Barking, so the reports may not be 100% accurate.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ith/article.do

As discussed previously on this group, the plan is to reallocate the Circle,
H&C and Metropolitan lines as follows:

a) Met diverted from Aldgate to Barking, taking over the H&C branch
b) The Circle line service disappears
c) The Hammersmith branch of the H&C is combined with the Circle so trains
run from Hammersmith to Edgware Road then once round the inner circle.

Trains on the Hammersmith branch will be doubled. There will be no regular
through service between the west and north of the circle, but passengers are
being promised cross platform interchange. Also flagged as a positive is
that there is a depot on the line route (the Circle lacks one).

Interestingly the reports suggest that on the return journey the trains will
run directly back to Hammersmith, rather than back round the circle first.
There will be an alternative route that runs the other way round the circle.

The East London Advertiser, instead, suggests a single route with the trains
going back round the circle:

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.u...A37%3A46%3A103

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:59:42 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

a) Met diverted from Aldgate to Barking, taking over the H&C branch

All Met trains, or will some still terminate at Aldgate?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

The "Lasso Line"
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Both the London Lite and the Evening Standard today carried news about
changes to the Circle Line due this December. The level of journalism
isn't the best - both talked about the "Hammersmith & City Line" being
"extended" from Aldgate to Barking, so the reports may not be 100%
accurate.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...ith/article.do

As discussed previously on this group, the plan is to reallocate the
Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines as follows:

a) Met diverted from Aldgate to Barking, taking over the H&C branch
b) The Circle line service disappears
c) The Hammersmith branch of the H&C is combined with the Circle so
trains run from Hammersmith to Edgware Road then once round the inner
circle.

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

Trains on the Hammersmith branch will be doubled. There will be no
regular through service between the west and north of the circle, but
passengers are being promised cross platform interchange. Also flagged
as a positive is that there is a depot on the line route (the Circle
lacks one).

I don't see how they can promise cross-platform interchange. There will
be a 50% chance of cross-platform interchange depending on which
platform is used.

Peter Smyth

The "Lasso Line"
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in
:

Both the London Lite and the Evening Standard today carried news about
changes to the Circle Line due this December. The level of journalism
isn't the best - both talked about the "Hammersmith & City Line" being
"extended" from Aldgate to Barking, so the reports may not be 100%
accurate.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...etails/Circle+
line+changes+shape+and+heads+off+to+Hammersmith/article.do

As discussed previously on this group, the plan is to reallocate the
Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines as follows:

a) Met diverted from Aldgate to Barking, taking over the H&C branch
b) The Circle line service disappears
c) The Hammersmith branch of the H&C is combined with the Circle so
trains run from Hammersmith to Edgware Road then once round the inner
circle.

Trains on the Hammersmith branch will be doubled. There will be no
regular through service between the west and north of the circle, but
passengers are being promised cross platform interchange. Also flagged
as a positive is that there is a depot on the line route (the Circle
lacks one).

Interestingly the reports suggest that on the return journey the
trains will run directly back to Hammersmith, rather than back round
the circle first. There will be an alternative route that runs the
other way round the circle.

The East London Advertiser, instead, suggests a single route with the
trains going back round the circle:

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.u...s/advertiser/n
ews/story.aspx?brand=ELAOnline&category=news&tBrand=no rthlondon24&tCate
gory=newsela&itemid=WeED05%20Mar%202009%2013%3A37% 3A46%3A103




The TfL press releases
(http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11300.aspx) says

"The new service will run from Hammersmith (H & C station) to Edgware Road
station and then join the current Circle at Edgware Road and make a single
loop, terminating at Edgware Road station. It will then reverse and do the
full circle anti-clockwise, returning to Hammersmith."

which has been reported by the Standard as

"From December, Circle line trains will start in Hammersmith, run along the
current Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road and then do a clockwise lap
of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They would then do the
journey anti-clockwise."

David

The "Lasso Line"
 

"David Jackman" pleasereplytogroup wrote in message
. 109.145...

which has been reported by the Standard as

"From December, Circle line trains will start in Hammersmith, run along
the
current Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road and then do a clockwise
lap
of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They would then do the
journey anti-clockwise."

A very similar mistaken description to the last time the Standard ran the
story a few months back. IIRC was discussed here at the time...

Paul S

The "Lasso Line"
 

In message , at 20:22:56 on Thu, 5
Mar 2009, Peter Smyth remarked:
6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road

So Paddington (Circle line station) to KX will *always* require a change
of train at Edgware Rd. Clockwise, anyway.

6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

Any of these stopping short at High St Ken?
--
Roland Perry

The "Lasso Line"
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Both the London Lite and the Evening Standard today carried news about
changes to the Circle Line due this December. The level of journalism
isn't the best - both talked about the "Hammersmith & City Line" being
"extended" from Aldgate to Barking, so the reports may not be 100%
accurate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/7926242.stm

BBC seem to have it described reasonably (with drawing) OK - and are pretty
well convinced it will remain the Circle. So just who actually brought
'Lasso' into it?

Paul S

The "Lasso Line"
 

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

I presume this is because the Met can't at present run eastwards on the
current track - will this change with the new stock? (Plus of course this
preserves the through service - is there a requirement for a public enquiry
before such services can be withdrawn or is it the route?)

I don't see how they can promise cross-platform interchange. There will be
a 50% chance of cross-platform interchange depending on which platform is
used.

I suspect this is a flawed attempt to try and minimise objections to the
loss of the direct service. Personally when I've taken the route I've often
found the trains pause for an eternity at Edgeware Road and information
about which train will leave next is virtually non-existant.

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 5, 9:10*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"David Jackman" pleasereplytogroup wrote in message

. 109.145...

which has been reported by the Standard as

"From December, Circle line trains will start in Hammersmith, run along
the
current Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road and then do a clockwise
lap
of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They would then do the
journey anti-clockwise."

A very similar mistaken description to the last time the Standard ran the
story a few months back. *IIRC was discussed here at the time...

Paul S

Identical nonsense in The London Paper I noticed.

Anyway, I really can't see Edgware Road being workable with the number
of crossing movements. And for the punters, you'd never know which
side of the bridge to run to to get to the Notting Hill direction (bad
enough now).

Given that cross-platform change is only 50 : 50 anyway, the only way
I could see it working would be with major remodelling (two new
crossovers?) so that terminating trains could use the island platform
3/4 and trains to/from Hammersmith on the other side. At least you'd
always know where to stand.

The "Lasso Line"
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:22:56 on Thu, 5
Mar 2009, Peter Smyth remarked:
6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road

So Paddington (Circle line station) to KX will *always* require a
change of train at Edgware Rd. Clockwise, anyway.

Yes, but anyone going from Paddington east should use the H&C platforms
which will have an increased frequency.

6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

Any of these stopping short at High St Ken?

The Olympia trains will still stop at HSK.

Peter Smyth

The "Lasso Line"
 

In message , at 22:29:59 on Thu, 5
Mar 2009, Peter Smyth remarked:
So Paddington (Circle line station) to KX will *always* require a
change of train at Edgware Rd. Clockwise, anyway.

Yes, but anyone going from Paddington east should use the H&C platforms
which will have an increased frequency.

But isn't step-free. Not even close. My most frequent usage is
Heathrow-Paddington-KX, and clockwise is step free.

To preserve that really *does* need a x-platform interchange at Edgware
Rd.

In case you are wondering, when I'm going out from Heathrow I'd normally
have stayed overnight at an airport hotel, and so getting the Piccadilly
from KX is step free, and not too inconveniently slow.
--
Roland Perry

The "Lasso Line"
 

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

There will be no regular
through service between the west and north of the circle, but
passengers are being promised cross platform interchange. Also
flagged as a positive is that there is a depot on the line route
(the Circle lacks one).

How exactly? If we're travelling from King's Cross to East Putney with my
toddler granddaughter and a buggy, the only half reasonable route now is
Circle to Paddington, then Wimbleware. That gives a sure same platform
connection.

If the first train at King's Cross is a Hammersmith and City then we have
to change at Edgware Road where there seems to be quite a high chance of
having to hump the buggy over the bridge.

In the other direction you don't even know whether to chance it for a
cross-platform change at Edgware Road or bail out at Paddington (in fact
anywhere between High St and Paddington)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

The "Lasso Line"
 

In article ,
(Peter Smyth) wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:22:56 on
Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Peter Smyth remarked:
6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road

So Paddington (Circle line station) to KX will *always* require a
change of train at Edgware Rd. Clockwise, anyway.

Yes, but anyone going from Paddington east should use the H&C
platforms which will have an increased frequency.

No use from the Wimbledon branch.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, MIG wrote:

On Mar 5, 9:10*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"David Jackman" pleasereplytogroup wrote in message

. 109.145...

which has been reported by the Standard as

"From December, Circle line trains will start in Hammersmith, run
along the current Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road and then do
a clockwise lap of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They
would then do the journey anti-clockwise."

A very similar mistaken description to the last time the Standard ran
the story a few months back. *IIRC was discussed here at the time...

Identical nonsense in The London Paper I noticed.

Anyway, I really can't see Edgware Road being workable with the number
of crossing movements.

With 12 tph coming from Hammersmith (6 H&C, 6 Lasso), and going the other
way, and 12 tph coming from Notting Hill Gate (6 Lasso, 6 Wimbleware),
you've got 12 vs 12, which means, under ideal conditions, a five-minute
gap between successive Hammersmith-bound trains, through which you have to
fit the NHG-originating trains - every five minutes, all day, and vice
versa!

I think it's currently 7.5 tph H&C, 7.5 tph Circle, and something like 6
tph Wimbleware (?), which pits 13.5 against 7.5. As long as you can hold
the westbound H&Cs at Edgware Road (which you can, due to there being two
roads through it), that gives you 13.5 4-minute slots an hour into which
to fit 7.5 trains. That sounds like it should be easier.

The proximity to the reverse at Edgware Road means that anything which
clobbers a train coming into the bay (from NHG) has the potential to
affect trains doing the reverse, which since they share the line with the
trains going to Hammersmith, means that you could, i think, get some kind
of self-reinforcing cyclone of disaster. The spare slots in the current
scheme effectively mitigate this.

And for the punters, you'd never know which side of the bridge to run to
to get to the Notting Hill direction (bad enough now).

Given that cross-platform change is only 50 : 50 anyway,

According to Quail, there is a trailing crossover to the *east* of the
platforms. If a train's length of outer rail to the east of that was made
reversible, then you could send all reversing trains into platform 2, with
cross-platform change to platform 1 for trains to King's Cross, then carry
on eastward and reverse them via the reversible patch and the crossover
into platform 3, where they could pick up passengers cross-platform from
westbound H&C trains. That would deliver the promised cross-platform
interchange. It would also involve reversing trains on the bit of track
that 12 tph of trains from Hammersmith are trying to use to get to King's
Cross, but there you go. If that bit could be tripled, problem solved!

the only way I could see it working would be with major remodelling (two
new crossovers?) so that terminating trains could use the island
platform 3/4 and trains to/from Hammersmith on the other side. At least
you'd always know where to stand.

I think you'd need one new scissors crossover, to the west of the
divergence of the lines heading round each side of the islands. Or two
single crossovers and two bits of reversible line, but that would be very
painful.

What you really want is to widen the bit from the junction to the station
to four tracks, so trains can use platforms as you describe without any
crossing at all.

Well, what you *really* want is a flying junction. And four tracks. And
tripling to the east to make a reversing siding:


/-------------\
----------/ ###### \
Ham /-------------+----+--
/ / KX
---)/(------------+-+---------
/ /----\ ###### /
--/ / \------/
NHG /
--/

That gives you a completely conflict-free, cross-platform solution. You'd
have to demolish a good chunk of Paddington to do it, but that would then
also give you the chance to construct a large stick, on which the moon
could be mounted (for those who remember Fist of Fun).

tom

--
i'm prepared to do anything as long as someone else works out how to do
it and gives me simple instructions... -- Sean

The "Lasso Line"
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in news:8J-
:

So just who actually brought 'Lasso' into it?

"Insiders".

I still prefer "tea-cup line"... :)

The "Lasso Line"
 

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

So the Circle, always crowded, will get less frequent... and the Hammersmith
branch, always roomy[1], gets a doubling of frequency. Has anyone said why
this is happening? The stuff about the Circle lacking a depot could be
solved by running Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware
Road - Barking at approximately the current frequency.

[1] before Westfield.... haven't used it since.

The "Lasso Line"
 

"John Rowland" wrote in
:

Subject: The "Lasso Line"
From: "John Rowland"
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

So the Circle, always crowded, will get less frequent...

It will? Isn't the Circle 6tph at the moment?

The "Lasso Line"
 

In message of Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:39:38 in
uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes
In message , at 22:29:59 on Thu, 5
Mar 2009, Peter Smyth remarked:
So Paddington (Circle line station) to KX will *always* require a
change of train at Edgware Rd. Clockwise, anyway.

Yes, but anyone going from Paddington east should use the H&C
platforms which will have an increased frequency.

But isn't step-free. Not even close. My most frequent usage is
Heathrow-Paddington-KX, and clockwise is step free.

Only if you count escalators as step-free.

http://directenquiries.com/stationdi...Detail&Title=N
ational+Rail+(Platforms+1+to+8)+-+Entrance+to+Ticket+Hall&did=0218-003042
0_E2H&level=3 shows either 21 steps or an escalator down.

I reckon step-free as equivalent to wheelchair-accessible.

OTOH
http://directenquiries.com/stationdi...Detail&Title=T
he+Lawns+%26+National+Rail+-+Entrance+to+Ticket+Hall&did=0218-0030439_E2H
&level=3 IS step-free. I had not clocked that access. I will check it
out when I next visit Paddington. It is not mentioned in the January
2009 Step-free Tube guide which is available in large paper, small paper
and online at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/step-free-tube-guide-index.pdf
and
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/step-free-tube-guide-map.pdf.

I very much value this thread. I clocked "END OF THE CIRCLE LINE" (sic),
displayed on the first page of "LONDON LITE" (sic) on the ITV London
News program and went out into the cold for a copy. I am much more
informed than I was by the paper. ;)
--
Walter Briscoe

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 6, 1:02*am, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, MIG wrote:
On Mar 5, 9:10*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"David Jackman" pleasereplytogroup wrote in message

6.109.145...

which has been reported by the Standard as

"From December, Circle line trains will start in Hammersmith, run
along the current Hammersmith & City line to Edgware Road and then do
a clockwise lap of the Circle line and head back to Hammersmith. They
would then do the journey anti-clockwise."

A very similar mistaken description to the last time the Standard ran
the story a few months back. *IIRC was discussed here at the time...

Identical nonsense in The London Paper I noticed.

Anyway, I really can't see Edgware Road being workable with the number
of crossing movements.

With 12 tph coming from Hammersmith (6 H&C, 6 Lasso), and going the other
way, and 12 tph coming from Notting Hill Gate (6 Lasso, 6 Wimbleware),
you've got 12 vs 12, which means, under ideal conditions, a five-minute
gap between successive Hammersmith-bound trains, through which you have to
fit the NHG-originating trains - every five minutes, all day, and vice
versa!

I think it's currently 7.5 tph H&C, 7.5 tph Circle, and something like 6
tph Wimbleware (?), which pits 13.5 against 7.5. As long as you can hold
the westbound H&Cs at Edgware Road (which you can, due to there being two
roads through it), that gives you 13.5 4-minute slots an hour into which
to fit 7.5 trains. That sounds like it should be easier.

The proximity to the reverse at Edgware Road means that anything which
clobbers a train coming into the bay (from NHG) has the potential to
affect trains doing the reverse, which since they share the line with the
trains going to Hammersmith, means that you could, i think, get some kind
of self-reinforcing cyclone of disaster. The spare slots in the current
scheme effectively mitigate this.

And for the punters, you'd never know which side of the bridge to run to
to get to the Notting Hill direction (bad enough now).

Given that cross-platform change is only 50 : 50 anyway,

According to Quail, there is a trailing crossover to the *east* of the
platforms. If a train's length of outer rail to the east of that was made
reversible, then you could send all reversing trains into platform 2, with
cross-platform change to platform 1 for trains to King's Cross, then carry
on eastward and reverse them via the reversible patch and the crossover
into platform 3, where they could pick up passengers cross-platform from
westbound H&C trains. That would deliver the promised cross-platform
interchange. It would also involve reversing trains on the bit of track
that 12 tph of trains from Hammersmith are trying to use to get to King's
Cross, but there you go. If that bit could be tripled, problem solved!

the only way I could see it working would be with major remodelling (two
new crossovers?) so that terminating trains could use the island
platform 3/4 and trains to/from Hammersmith on the other side. *At least
you'd always know where to stand.

I think you'd need one new scissors crossover, to the west of the
divergence of the lines heading round each side of the islands. Or two
single crossovers and two bits of reversible line, but that would be very
painful.

What you really want is to widen the bit from the junction to the station
to four tracks, so trains can use platforms as you describe without any
crossing at all.

Well, what you *really* want is a flying junction. And four tracks. And
tripling to the east to make a reversing siding:

* * * * * * * * */-------------\
* * *----------/ ###### * * * *\
Ham * * * */-------------+----+--
* * * * * */ * * * * * * / * * * * * *KX
* * *---)/(------------+-+---------
* * * * */ /----\ ###### /
* * *--/ / * * *\------/
NHG * * /
* * *--/

That gives you a completely conflict-free, cross-platform solution. You'd
have to demolish a good chunk of Paddington to do it, but that would then
also give you the chance to construct a large stick, on which the moon
could be mounted (for those who remember Fist of Fun).


I still think that putting the moon on a stick is probably easier than
getting the proposal to work. I give it six weeks of chaos before
they revert to the current pattern.

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 6, 9:22*am, MIG wrote:
I still think that putting the moon on a stick is probably easier than
getting the proposal to work. *I give it six weeks of chaos before
they revert to the current pattern.

Could it be any worse than the current circle line? From my limited
experience the circle line simply doesn't work in the rush hour. If
its not delayed its only because its not running at all.

B2003

The "Lasso Line"
 

Wasn't the Circle Line a legal requirement of the act which enabled the line
through Monument to be built? Will Parliament have to okay this plan? Or
will Harriett Harman just declare it to be approved in the court of public
opinion (i.e. it's what Gordon wants).

The "Lasso Line"
 

In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

"John Rowland" wrote in
:

Subject: The "Lasso Line"
From: "John Rowland"
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The
planned service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

So the Circle, always crowded, will get less frequent...

It will? Isn't the Circle 6tph at the moment?

8 or possibly 7 surely? ISTR 8 minute intervals.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

The "Lasso Line"
 

John Rowland wrote:
Wasn't the Circle Line a legal requirement of the act which enabled
the line through Monument to be built? Will Parliament have to okay
this plan? Or will Harriett Harman just declare it to be approved in
the court of public opinion (i.e. it's what Gordon wants).

I doubt if Gordon Brown could name ten stations on the Circle Line!

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, MIG wrote:

I still think that putting the moon on a stick is probably easier than
getting the proposal to work. I give it six weeks of chaos before they
revert to the current pattern.

Unless they're planning to upgrade the signalling, which i don't think
they are, yes.

tom

--
if you can't beat them, build them

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, James Farrar wrote:

"John Rowland" wrote in
:

Subject: The "Lasso Line"
From: "John Rowland"
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

So the Circle, always crowded, will get less frequent...

It will? Isn't the Circle 6tph at the moment?

It nominally has a train every 8 minutes, so 7.5 tph.

tom

--
if you can't beat them, build them

The "Lasso Line"
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

Wasn't the Circle Line a legal requirement of the act which enabled
the line through Monument to be built? Will Parliament have to okay
this plan? Or will Harriett Harman just declare it to be approved in
the court of public opinion (i.e. it's what Gordon wants).

I doubt that there is any such law. Even if there was trains are still
going to do a complete lap of the Circle Line from Edgware Road to
Edgware Road.

Peter Smyth

The "Lasso Line"
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, James Farrar wrote:

"John Rowland" wrote in
:

Subject: The "Lasso Line"
From: "John Rowland"
Newsgroups: uk.transport.london

Peter Smyth wrote:

The Metropolitan line will still go to Aldgate as present. The planned
service is

6tph Hammersmith - Barking
6tph Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road
6tph Uxbridge - Aldgate
6tph Wimbledon - Edgware Road

So the Circle, always crowded, will get less frequent...

It will? Isn't the Circle 6tph at the moment?

It nominally has a train every 8 minutes, so 7.5 tph.

I haven't got the current WTT, but I thought it was every 8½ minutes in
the peaks and every 10 minutes off-peak.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 6, 12:23*pm, wrote:
On Mar 6, 9:22*am, MIG wrote:

I still think that putting the moon on a stick is probably easier than
getting the proposal to work. *I give it six weeks of chaos before
they revert to the current pattern.

Could it be any worse than the current circle line? From my limited
experience the circle line simply doesn't work in the rush hour. If
its not delayed its only because its not running at all.

B2003

The Circle Line is something of a myth I agree but, under the
proposals, the Hammersmith Line will become a myth as well.

The "Lasso Line"
 

After all those circuits of the Circle Line is any one train in the
lead?

The "Lasso Line"
 

In message , at 09:15:58 on Fri, 6
Mar 2009, Walter Briscoe remarked:
My most frequent usage is Heathrow-Paddington-KX, and clockwise is
step free.

Only if you count escalators as step-free.

http://directenquiries.com/stationdi...Detail&Title=N
ational+Rail+(Platforms+1+to+8)+-+Entrance+to+Ticket+Hall&did=0218-00304
20_E2H&level=3 shows either 21 steps or an escalator down.

It's wrong (or at the very least incomplete) for years there's been a
lift from the lawn area down to the ticket hall, and from the ticket
hall it's a level passage to the clockwise platform. I agree the lift
isn't very well signed (it looks more like it goes up to the balcony
overlooking the lawn).
--
Roland Perry

The "Lasso Line"
 

Just a thought. No idea if it's practical

There's a lot of redundant platforms at Moorgate now. How about
starting at Moorgate, doing a complete circle then on to
Hammersmith? Or would that be too much traffic on the Moorgate-
Edgware Road section?

Peter

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 24, 4:52*am, peter wrote:
Just a thought. No idea if it's practical

There's a lot of redundant platforms at Moorgate now. *How about
starting at Moorgate, doing a complete circle then on to
Hammersmith? * Or would that be too much traffic on the Moorgate-
Edgware Road section?

The problems come with the flat junctions at Baker Street and
Moorgate. Trying to fit a more intensive Circle/Lasso service in
between the Metropolitan Line trains that cross it at Baker Street
could be tricky, and ditto for trains 'turning right' to the bays at
Moorgate crossing through trains coming west.

The only way it could reasonably work would be for all Metropolitan
Line trains from the north to terminate at Baker Street, at which
point you'd presumably project these trains on to Aldgate to replace
the Met ones -- but I don't think this would be popular.

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Mar 24, 5:45*pm, wrote:
On Mar 24, 4:52*am, peter wrote:

Just a thought. No idea if it's practical

There's a lot of redundant platforms at Moorgate now. *How about
starting at Moorgate, doing a complete circle then on to
Hammersmith? * Or would that be too much traffic on the Moorgate-
Edgware Road section?

The problems come with the flat junctions at Baker Street and
Moorgate. Trying to fit a more intensive Circle/Lasso service in
between the Metropolitan Line trains that cross it at Baker Street
could be tricky, and ditto for trains 'turning right' to the bays at
Moorgate crossing through trains coming west.

The only way it could reasonably work would be for all Metropolitan
Line trains from the north to terminate at Baker Street, at which
point you'd presumably project these trains on to Aldgate to replace
the Met ones -- but I don't think this would be popular.

My preferred solution would be not to increase the Hammersmith
frequency and to run it round all the way and then on to Moorgate,
Aldgate or Barking (wherever the Metropolitan doesn't go, according to
taste), so providing the same frequency as currently proposed along
the top of the Circle where it overlaps.

Increased peak services could go direct to Barking etc.

That way there would be no need for the impossible plans for Edgware
Road and no need to turn round half the ex-Wimbledon Trains at High
Street Ken.

I don't think there's a problem with frequency on the Hammersmith
line. The problem is the grinding slowness.

The "Lasso Line"
 

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:45:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The only way it could reasonably work would be for all Metropolitan
Line trains from the north to terminate at Baker Street, at which
point you'd presumably project these trains on to Aldgate to replace
the Met ones -- but I don't think this would be popular.

Even without the through Met service, it wouldn't be popular with me
as it's the Met that provides enough capacity for the northern Circle
with its long, frequent trains.

neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.