On Mar 21, 8:29*pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...

No, because the wheels are not a fixed diameter, but get gradually

smaller as they are turned on lathes to remove flats and
imperfections. A small difference in diameter will lead to a large
cummulative error, if no corrections are made. There are other systems
which measure distance travelled (for example radar), but I don't know
how they are affected by different track formations etc.

I thought I heard that some lines work on revolutions, particularly the
Central Line.


Revolutions are fine for short distances, say station to station, but
not for longer ones. The counters / commulative distance need reseting
before any potential error gets too large.

If this is not the case, then how do Central line trains know where they
are?

The stations tell them where they are (more or less). There is a
transmitter telling the trains the nature of the line ahead, how far
the next station (or two) is and the speed profile. There is a
description of the Central Line ATO system on Clive D Feather's
website (http://www.davros.org/rail/signallin...s/central.html)

wrote:
wrote in message
...

No, because the wheels are not a fixed diameter, but get gradually
smaller as they are turned on lathes to remove flats and
imperfections. A small difference in diameter will lead to a large
cummulative error, if no corrections are made. There are other systems
which measure distance travelled (for example radar), but I don't know
how they are affected by different track formations etc.

I thought I heard that some lines work on revolutions, particularly the
Central Line.

If this is not the case, then how do Central line trains know where they
are?


They ask Underground Ernie, and he tells them?

;-)

On 20 Mar, 11:08, wrote:
On Mar 20, 7:58 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:

FCC/TL *won't be using SDO ... they do not use it anywhere on their
network pre-KO0
Yes they will!! The 377/5s are Southern units, built to Southern
specifications. Whether FCC need SDO is not relevant!

) not often I have to comment on one of your respected posts HH28 -
but what I wrote was ''FCC/TL won't be *using* SDO''.

I think I am correct in that, and your comment does not appear to me
to say anywhere FCC/TL are using it, only that the units are
equipped.

Surely that is not so much relevant as THE key point I was respondong
to ... that the Victoria 377 delay sceanrio will not arise at SPILL .

Or can you tell me where FCC/TL will be using SDO underground, and
why ?
With 377s all stations are SDO, so if a 16 car called at a 12 car
platform then the rear 4 won't open.. The train is designed such that
the doors won't release unless I) the train has a GPS fix and knows
what station it is at or ii) an emergency release is given by the
driver. SDO (I doubt) cannot just be disabled as it is integral part
of how the units function.

On Mar 22, 2:17*am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:
On 20 Mar, 11:08, wrote:



On Mar 20, 7:58 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:

FCC/TL *won't be using SDO ... they do not use it anywhere on their
network pre-KO0
Yes they will!! The 377/5s are Southern units, built to Southern
specifications. Whether FCC need SDO is not relevant!

) not often I have to comment on one of your respected posts HH28 -
but what I wrote was ''FCC/TL won't be *using* SDO''.

I think I am correct in that, and your comment does not appear to me
to say anywhere FCC/TL are using it, only that the units are
equipped.

Surely that is not so much relevant as THE key point I was respondong
to ... that the Victoria 377 delay sceanrio will not arise at SPILL .

Or can you tell me where FCC/TL will be using SDO underground, and
why ?

With 377s all stations are SDO, so if a 16 car called at a 12 car
platform then the rear 4 won't open.. The train is designed such that
the doors won't release unless I) the train has a GPS fix and knows
what station it is at or ii) an emergency release is given by the
driver. SDO (I doubt) cannot just be disabled as it is integral part
of how the units function.

The GPS part of SDO is not an integral part of how the units function,
it is just a section of the trains' computer programming which limits
which doors that can be opened. The question is how easy it is to
remove the GPS controlled part of program on the 377s as even option
ii) in your list will be too long for the 377s on the Thameslink route
(with several underground stations).

On 22 Mar, 10:38, wrote:
On Mar 22, 2:17*am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:





On 20 Mar, 11:08, wrote:

On Mar 20, 7:58 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:

FCC/TL *won't be using SDO ... they do not use it anywhere on their
network pre-KO0
Yes they will!! The 377/5s are Southern units, built to Southern
specifications. Whether FCC need SDO is not relevant!

) not often I have to comment on one of your respected posts HH28 -
but what I wrote was ''FCC/TL won't be *using* SDO''.

I think I am correct in that, and your comment does not appear to me
to say anywhere FCC/TL are using it, only that the units are
equipped.

Surely that is not so much relevant as THE key point I was respondong
to ... that the Victoria 377 delay sceanrio will not arise at SPILL .

Or can you tell me where FCC/TL will be using SDO underground, and
why ?

With 377s all stations are SDO, so if a 16 car called at a 12 car
platform then the rear 4 won't open.. The train is designed such that
the doors won't release unless I) the train has a GPS fix and knows
what station it is at or ii) an emergency release is given by the
driver. SDO (I doubt) cannot just be disabled as it is integral part
of how the units function.

The GPS part of SDO is not an integral part of how the units function,
it is just a section of the trains' computer programming which limits
which doors that can be opened. The question is how easy it is to
remove the GPS controlled part of program on the 377s as even option
ii) in your list will be too long for the 377s on the Thameslink route
(with several underground stations).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The GPS will be working with 377/5, as it will with the 377/2s on
loan. "Bayliss(es)" have been installed at St Pancras (upstairs and
downstairs) Farringdon and City Thameslink. I belive they may also be
in at Blackfriars (not sure). I am not techie, but they effictively
transmit to the trains GPS and confirm the trains doors can open.
Whether or not these are as quick as the train seeing satelites I have
no idea. I believe that there are still issues at Victoria (SN) with
getting these installed. Again, this may have happened now as I have
not been up there for a while on 377s.

I do wonder whether there will be some locations on the Chatham main
line or the Maidstone route that will prove troublesome over the
coming week.


Richard

On Mar 22, 12:43 pm, Fat richard wrote:


On Mar 22, 2:17 am, Standing at HN28 signal


Thankyou HH28 and Richard for the information and explanations., I
withdraw my objection )

--
Nick

On Mar 22, 12:43*pm, Fat richard wrote:
On 22 Mar, 10:38, wrote:





On Mar 22, 2:17*am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:

On 20 Mar, 11:08, wrote:

On Mar 20, 7:58 am, Standing at HN28 signal
wrote:

FCC/TL *won't be using SDO ... they do not use it anywhere on their
network pre-KO0
Yes they will!! The 377/5s are Southern units, built to Southern
specifications. Whether FCC need SDO is not relevant!

) not often I have to comment on one of your respected posts HH28 -
but what I wrote was ''FCC/TL won't be *using* SDO''.

I think I am correct in that, and your comment does not appear to me
to say anywhere FCC/TL are using it, only that the units are
equipped.

Surely that is not so much relevant as THE key point I was respondong
to ... that the Victoria 377 delay sceanrio will not arise at SPILL

Thanks for that Richard (I think you mean Balise(s), assuming that
they use the same spelling as the TVM 430 CTRL signalling system). It
will be interesting to see how quick the system is, as the difference
between a balise and GPS is that with GPS the train always knows where
it is, whereas with a balise, it only know where it is when it is near
the balise. It was obviously less hassle to install the trackside kit
than to reprogram and recertify the units, although the trains will
still have to have been loaded with the relevant SDO information for
all of the 'Thameslink' lines.

Victoria still had a ~15sec delay on door opening last weekend.

I do wonder whether there will be some locations on the Chatham main
line or the Maidstone route that will prove troublesome over the
coming week.

Richard





Were I to be delayed for more than one minute, I would construe this as a
danger to my safety and A. pull the emergency alarm with legitimate reason
for seeking emergency assistance, and possibly B. activate the emergency
door release were I not to be undetained after a further one minute.

I think it highly unreasonable and unlawful for railway operators to
unnecessarily delay and detain the public in this fashion.

How hard can it be for a lowly scum bag railway employee to press a door
open button, a function which the industry has done for more than 50 years,
without delay and techo-ineptitude?

In message
"Light of Aria" wrote:


Thanks for that Richard (I think you mean Balise(s), assuming that
they use the same spelling as the TVM 430 CTRL signalling system). It
will be interesting to see how quick the system is, as the difference
between a balise and GPS is that with GPS the train always knows where
it is, whereas with a balise, it only know where it is when it is near
the balise. It was obviously less hassle to install the trackside kit
than to reprogram and recertify the units, although the trains will
still have to have been loaded with the relevant SDO information for
all of the 'Thameslink' lines.

Victoria still had a ~15sec delay on door opening last weekend.

I do wonder whether there will be some locations on the Chatham main
line or the Maidstone route that will prove troublesome over the
coming week.

Richard





Were I to be delayed for more than one minute, I would construe this as a
danger to my safety and A. pull the emergency alarm with legitimate reason
for seeking emergency assistance, and possibly B. activate the emergency
door release were I not to be undetained after a further one minute.

No you wouldn't, you are just mouthing off and making yourself look a prat in
the process.


I think it highly unreasonable and unlawful for railway operators to
unnecessarily delay and detain the public in this fashion.

Yeah yeah yeah...


How hard can it be for a lowly scum bag railway employee to press a door
open button, a function which the industry has done for more than 50 years,
without delay and techo-ineptitude?


You are David Hansen AICMFP

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Mar 22, 7:51*pm, "Light of Aria"
wrote:
Thanks for that Richard (I think you mean Balise(s), assuming that
they use the same spelling as the TVM 430 CTRL signalling system). It
will be interesting to see how quick the system is, as the difference
between a balise and GPS is that with GPS the train always knows where
it is, whereas with a balise, it only know where it is when it is near
the balise. It was obviously less hassle to install the trackside kit
than to reprogram and recertify the units, although the trains will
still have to have been loaded with the relevant SDO information for
all of the 'Thameslink' lines.

Victoria still had a ~15sec delay on door opening last weekend.

I do wonder whether there will be some locations on the Chatham main
line or the Maidstone route that will prove troublesome over the
coming week.

Richard



Were I to be delayed for more than one minute, I would construe this as a
danger to my safety and A. pull the emergency alarm with legitimate reason
for seeking emergency assistance, and possibly B. activate the emergency
door release were I not to be undetained after a further one minute.

I think it highly unreasonable and unlawful for railway operators to
unnecessarily delay and detain the public in this fashion.

How hard can it be for a lowly scum bag railway employee to press a door
open button, a function which the industry has done for more than 50 years,
without delay and techo-ineptitude?

There seems to be a very bizarre attitude to locking passengers in
without explanation.

One example happened at London Bridge where the train stopped
indefinitely and the doors did not open. No announcement was made.
Staff on the platform completely blanked the people inside who were
knocking on the windows. Eventually, a youth opened the emergency
release and I was one of the people who took the opportunity to
escape.

The same staff on the platform made no reaction to the fact that the
doors had been released and someone had got off. I don't know if and
when the train went anywhere or the rest of the doors were released.

The other example was on the second to last train in the Dartford
direction which was held at New Cross with everyone locked in.

The atmosphere got distinctly tense when the last train in the
Dartford direction (12 minutes later leaving Charing Cross) pulled
into the adjacent platform and there was still no opportunity to reach
it, despite the train we were in evidently having a problem. Long
after that train had gone, the doors were suddenly released and I
escaped to get a night bus. I don't know if the train ever went
anywhere.

No announcement at any time on either occasion and I think a rather
disgraceful way to treat people.