London - Met widened lines query.
 

Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? ( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)
--
Peter Lawrence

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 18:31:55 GMT, Peter Lawrence wrote:

Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? ( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

I think there was a ground frame (released from West Hampstead PSB) at the
west end of Barbican Station up until the late 80s. IIRC this controlled a
trailing crossover between the two TL lines and was recovered (at least as
far as the interlocking was concerned) as part of a capacity upgrade project
c.1989.

I should have a signalling plan somewhere but it may take a while to dig it
out.

--
WZR

London - Met widened lines query.
 

In article , WZR
writes
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? ( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

I think there was a ground frame (released from West Hampstead PSB) at the
west end of Barbican Station up until the late 80s. IIRC this controlled a
trailing crossover between the two TL lines and was recovered (at least as
far as the interlocking was concerned) as part of a capacity upgrade project
c.1989.

There used to be two sidings between the two lines, connected to both
eastbound lines. Presumably that tunnel accommodated them. The
connection to the Widened Lines also had a short engine stub coming off
it.

There were two trailing crossovers on the TL lines, one either side of
the connection to the sidings. The one on the west side had a connection
coming off it into the Smithfield Goods station (that is, there was a
trailing connection from the Goods on to the eastbound TL, with a single
slip where it crossed the westbound allowing movements between the two
running lines).

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

London - Met widened lines query.
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? ( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)
There were two trailing crossovers on the TL lines, one either side of the
connection to the sidings. The one on the west side had a connection
coming off it into the Smithfield Goods station (that is, there was a
trailing connection from the Goods on to the eastbound TL, with a single
slip where it crossed the westbound allowing movements between the two
running lines).

There's also sidings south of Farringdon, which were renewed in the late
1980s for stock from the Holborn Viaduct terminators that were to be turned
at Blackfriars - so far as I know, never used. They were intended for the
same trains that are now continuing north with this weird FCC-SE link up.
Maybe someone lost the map?
--

Andrew

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Mar 21, 10:29 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

at Blackfriars - so far as I know, never used.

Funny there was a Southeastern train parked in Smithfield

The have regularly been used for berthing SX usually one train between
peaks.

What they've not ever been used for is regualr turning back of
trains ... when City was opened it had been intended to do that but
someone decided Cl.400 type Mk.1 EMU could not go down there so there
were never any services that needed to use the facility - the only non
TL trains to City one/two AM/PM peak Severnoaks with 465s.


--
Nick

London - Met widened lines query.
 

Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? ( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On 22 Mar, 04:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. *Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? *( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Regarding the moving of the lines (both LU and widened?), do you know
where to find further information on this? I had a look round the
Internet previously and found precious little.

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:01:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On 22 Mar, 04:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. *Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? *( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Regarding the moving of the lines (both LU and widened?), do you know
where to find further information on this? I had a look round the
Internet previously and found precious little.

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On 2009-03-23 05:54:03 +0000, Charles Ellson said:

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:01:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On 22 Mar, 04:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. *Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? *( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Regarding the moving of the lines (both LU and widened?), do you know
where to find further information on this? I had a look round the
Internet previously and found precious little.

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

I can remember this work being done while I was at University in London
during the early 60s. IIRC there was a large open space between
Aldersgate and Moorgate, round the edge of which the railway lines ran.
The space was, I think, being used as a car park (possibly one of the
sites where NCP started) and was almost certainly a bomb site which was
being/had been cleared. The opportunity was taken to remove a curve in
the line which was no longer necessary. There may have been other
reasons as well.
--
Robert

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:24:36 +0000, Robert
wrote:

On 2009-03-23 05:54:03 +0000, Charles Ellson said:

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:01:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On 22 Mar, 04:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. *Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? *( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Regarding the moving of the lines (both LU and widened?), do you know
where to find further information on this? I had a look round the
Internet previously and found precious little.

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

I can remember this work being done while I was at University in London
during the early 60s. IIRC there was a large open space between
Aldersgate and Moorgate, round the edge of which the railway lines ran.
The space was, I think, being used as a car park (possibly one of the
sites where NCP started) and was almost certainly a bomb site which was
being/had been cleared. The opportunity was taken to remove a curve in
the line which was no longer necessary. There may have been other
reasons as well.

It was IMU more a localised route diversion than just the removal of a
curve, the Luftwaffe having possibly done the demolition work that the
railway hadn't originally been allowed to do.

http://www.closedlines.free-online.co.uk/gb_ew_x.htm
(look for "Aldersgate")
seems to put the date on the second half of 1965 for the old route
being abandoned. I haven't got an older map to compare with but ISTR
the capital also took the opportunity to annexe a few acres of extra
land from Islington at the same time; if so, then this would put some
of the boundary in different positions on any "before" and "after"
maps that might turn up.

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On 23 Mar, 16:26, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:24:36 +0000, Robert
wrote:

On 2009-03-23 05:54:03 +0000, Charles Ellson said:

[snip]

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

I can remember this work being done while I was at University in London
during the early 60s. IIRC there was a large open space between
Aldersgate and Moorgate, round the edge of which the railway lines ran.
The space was, I think, being used as a car park (possibly one of the
sites where NCP started) and was almost certainly a bomb site which was
being/had been cleared. The opportunity was taken to remove a curve in
the line which was no longer necessary. There may have been other
reasons as well.

It was IMU more a localised route diversion than just the removal of a
curve, the Luftwaffe having possibly done the demolition work that the
railway hadn't originally been allowed to do.

http://www.closedlines.free-online.co.uk/gb_ew_x.htm
(look for "Aldersgate")
seems to put the date on the second half of 1965 for the old route
being abandoned. I haven't got an older map to compare with but ISTR
the capital also took the opportunity to annexe a few acres of extra
land from Islington at the same time; if so, then this would put some
of the boundary in different positions on any "before" and "after"
maps that might turn up.


With regards to the potential 'annexation' of part of LB Islington,
ITYM "the City [of London]", rather than "the capital" - London has
never officially been allocated the status of being the capital of the
UK and/or England, it is instead the de-facto capital city - but
anyway that's London in the sense of the wider city, as opposed to
specifically the City of London (i.e. the square mile).

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:42:33 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:


On 23 Mar, 16:26, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 07:24:36 +0000, Robert
wrote:

On 2009-03-23 05:54:03 +0000, Charles Ellson said:

[snip]

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

I can remember this work being done while I was at University in London
during the early 60s. IIRC there was a large open space between
Aldersgate and Moorgate, round the edge of which the railway lines ran.
The space was, I think, being used as a car park (possibly one of the
sites where NCP started) and was almost certainly a bomb site which was
being/had been cleared. The opportunity was taken to remove a curve in
the line which was no longer necessary. There may have been other
reasons as well.

It was IMU more a localised route diversion than just the removal of a
curve, the Luftwaffe having possibly done the demolition work that the
railway hadn't originally been allowed to do.

http://www.closedlines.free-online.co.uk/gb_ew_x.htm
(look for "Aldersgate")
seems to put the date on the second half of 1965 for the old route
being abandoned. I haven't got an older map to compare with but ISTR
the capital also took the opportunity to annexe a few acres of extra
land from Islington at the same time; if so, then this would put some
of the boundary in different positions on any "before" and "after"
maps that might turn up.


With regards to the potential 'annexation' of part of LB Islington,
ITYM "the City [of London]", rather than "the capital" - London has
never officially been allocated the status of being the capital of the
UK and/or England, it is instead the de-facto capital city - but
anyway that's London in the sense of the wider city, as opposed to
specifically the City of London (i.e. the square mile).

The area "wider" than the City of London is not a city (apart from
Westminster, but that is adjacent not included) far less the capital
city. The City of London has been a city "since time immemorial" and
became the capital when Winchester lost the job.

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Mar 23, 4:42*pm, Mizter T wrote:
never officially been allocated the status of being the capital of the
UK and/or England,

It doesn't need to. The capital is where the kings decided it was. It
didn't need rubber stamp approval by some civil servants (or whatever
the norman equivalent was).

B2003

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 04:09:33 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be
wrote this:-

On Mar 23, 4:42*pm, Mizter T wrote:
never officially been allocated the status of being the capital of the
UK and/or England,

It doesn't need to. The capital is where the kings decided it was. It
didn't need rubber stamp approval by some civil servants (or whatever
the norman equivalent was).

Indeed. England has had a number of capitals as the fashion and
politics changed. Scotland has had many more, even after it became
one country.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

London - Met widened lines query.
 

On Mar 23, 3:24*am, Robert wrote:
On 2009-03-23 05:54:03 +0000, Charles Ellson said:



On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:01:18 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On 22 Mar, 04:37, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Peter Lawrence wrote:
Exploring the furthest reaches Barbican station I noticed a third
tunnel mouth at the western end of the platforms, between the TL and
KU tunnels, and what looked like a ground frame, still connected to
point rods disaooearing into the ballast, between the TL tracks. *Were
these related to the former Smithfield goods station? *( I thought
Smithfield goods was south of the TL tracks, as showm at
http://www.londonrailways.net/snowhill.htm.)

The line between Barbican and Moorgate was moved before the Barbican Centre
was built. (I don't know if this is relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.)

Regarding the moving of the lines (both LU and widened?), do you know
where to find further information on this? I had a look round the
Internet previously and found precious little.

It was in the early 1960s IIRC, possibly the same time that Aldersgate
became Barbican so books and magazines published around that time
ought to have some mention.

I can remember this work being done while I was at University in London
during the early 60s. IIRC there was a large open space between
Aldersgate and Moorgate, round the edge of which the railway lines ran.
The space was, I think, being used as a car park (possibly one of the
sites where NCP started) and was almost certainly a bomb site which was
being/had been cleared. The opportunity was taken to remove a curve in
the line which was no longer necessary. There may have been other
reasons as well.
--
Robert

There was a LMSR goods depot known as Whitecross St which I believe
lay south of the widened lines between Aldersgate and Moorgate and by
the time of the re-routing had become disused and a car park. I
suspect that (as with many other railway changes) use was made of
redundant railway lands. However, I have not yet come across any clear
maps etc. that define the location of this goods yard/depot. Any help
anyone??

Mike