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Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
Last night, a 28 bus that I had boarded in Kensington Church Street,
with the destination "Wandsworth" got turned short at North End Road/ Lillie Road. I asked the driver for a transfer ticket so that I would not to pay twice on my Oyster Pay-as-you-go when boarding the next bus. The driver gave me a print-out from his ticket machine. I was the only person to ask for this, and then about a dozen other (some of whom had already got off the bus) went and asked the driver for the same. The driver refused, stating that he had given me a transfer ticket "for everyone". Those passengers then came up to me and asked whether this was so, and I declined, stating that I was given a ticket for me, and was not responsible for anyone other than myself. They went back to the driver who shouted out at me that the ticket he had given me was for everyone. I disagreed, and replied that this ticket was for me, and since there was nothing obliging me to stay and have anything to do with the other passengers, they should each be given a ticket separately. The driver persisted, and eventually asked for the ticket back, stating that he would wait with us, and show the ticket to the next bus. About 20 minutes later, the next bus arrived, and the original driver showed the ticket and we were all allowed on without paying/ swiping again. Now call me pedantic if you want, but why should I, as a passenger, be taking responsibility for other passengers (some of whom were drunk) and trying to convince a driver of another bus that people with whom I have had nothing to do, and a group which by when may have been joined by all sorts of other hangers-on, trying to hitch a free ride. that none of us should have to pay? Are not the rules that the driver/conductor of a bus turning short either has to enure (as the driver eventually did) that he has communicated with the following bus so that the transferring passengers do not have to pay twice, or give EACH passenger that asks for it a transfer ticket? Marc. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 29 Mar, 13:02, " wrote:
Last night, a 28 bus that I had boarded in Kensington Church Street, with the destination "Wandsworth" got turned short at North End Road/ Lillie Road. I asked the driver for a transfer ticket so that I would not to pay twice on my Oyster Pay-as-you-go when boarding the next bus. The driver gave me a print-out from his ticket machine. *I was the only person to ask for this, and then about a dozen other (some of whom had already got off the bus) went and asked the driver for the same. The driver refused, stating that he had given me a transfer ticket "for everyone". Those passengers then came up to me and asked whether this was so, and I declined, stating that I was given a ticket for me, and was not responsible for anyone other than myself. They went back to the driver who shouted out at me that the ticket he had given me was for everyone. I disagreed, and replied that this ticket was for me, and since there was nothing obliging me to stay and have anything to do with the other passengers, they should each be given a ticket separately. The driver persisted, and eventually asked for the ticket back, stating that he would wait with us, and show the ticket to the next bus. About 20 minutes later, the next bus arrived, and the original driver showed the ticket and we were all allowed on without paying/ swiping again. Now call me pedantic if you want, but why should I, as a passenger, be taking responsibility for other passengers (some of whom were drunk) and trying to convince a driver of another bus that people with whom I have had nothing to do, and a group which by when may have been joined by all sorts of other hangers-on, trying to hitch a free ride. that none of us should have to pay? Are not the rules that the driver/conductor of *a bus turning short either has to enure (as the driver eventually did) that he has communicated with the following bus so that the transferring passengers do not have to pay twice, or give EACH passenger that asks for it a transfer ticket? Marc. Well, two things come to mind. Three even. 1. It was wrong for the driver to assume that you'd be responsible for the group. 2. Was it really such a big issue since you'd all be at the same stop anyway? 3. You might have made some nice new friends. I met my wife this way. I lied about meeting my wife. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 29 Mar, 13:07, Railist wrote:
Well, two things come to mind. Three even. 1. It was wrong for the driver to assume that you'd be responsible for the group. 2. Was it really such a big issue since you'd all be at the same stop anyway? 3. You might have made some nice new friends. I met my wife this way. Also: 4. The first driver's decision to wait 20 minutes in order to "shepherd" the passengers onto the bus behind probably negated any purpose to the bus being short turned in the first place. 5. Drivers when confronted by a gaggle of passengers claiming to be refugees from a short-turner will not waste much time quibbling about the need for one transfer ticket (let alone one per passenger). If the odd "waif or stray" manages to blag a free journey on the back of the legit transferees its just like anyone else travelling without a ticket who would be liable to prosecution if caught by an inspector at a later point on the journey. 6. The original poster's sole responsibility, if any, was surely just to hand the transfer slip to the driver of the next bus in the expectation that others in the same boat would board the same vehicle from the same stop at (virtually) the same time. 7. Sounds a bit like a drama was constructed out of a bit of a non- event? -- gordon |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
In message
, " writes The driver refused, stating that he had given me a transfer ticket "for everyone". I can't see how that could possibly work. Even if the ticket showed the number of passengers (which I doubt), there would be nothing to stop new arrivals at the bus stop joining the group of people who had been transferred. -- Paul Terry |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On Mar 29, 2:42�pm, " wrote:
On 29 Mar, 13:07, Railist wrote: Well, two things come to mind. Three even. 1. It was wrong for the driver to assume that you'd be responsible for the group. 2. Was it really such a big issue since you'd all be at the same stop anyway? 3. You might have made some nice new friends. I met my wife this way. Also: 4. The first driver's decision to wait 20 minutes in order to "shepherd" the passengers onto the bus behind probably negated any purpose to the bus being short turned in the first place. 5. Drivers when confronted by a gaggle of passengers claiming to be refugees from a short-turner will not waste much time quibbling about the need for one transfer ticket (let alone one per passenger). If the odd "waif or stray" manages to blag a free journey on the back of the legit transferees its just like anyone else travelling without a ticket who would be liable to prosecution if caught by an inspector at a later point on the journey. 6. The original poster's sole responsibility, if any, was surely just to hand the transfer slip to the driver of the next bus in the expectation that others in the same boat would board the same vehicle from the same stop at (virtually) the same time. 7. Sounds a bit like a drama was constructed out of a bit of a non- event? -- gordon No drama, I can assure you. I lost nothing whatsoever. It's just that I like things to be done the CORRECT way. And, if the driver was just too lazy to print out transfer tickets for every one, as I suspect he was obliged, then him waiting there for 20 minutes, at possibly his incovenience (since he could not go up to the Lillie Bridge turning point for coffee or a smoke) is no skin off my nose. He got no abuse from me, but several of the other passengers gave him an earful for making us wait on a freezing cold night for another bus at all! Although I would never abuse a bus driver, that he was made to feel uncomfortable by the other passengers, sharing our misery in waiting on a freezing night, is fine with me. Marc. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 2009-03-29, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , " writes The driver refused, stating that he had given me a transfer ticket "for everyone". I can't see how that could possibly work. Even if the ticket showed the number of passengers (which I doubt), there would be nothing to stop new arrivals at the bus stop joining the group of people who had been transferred. AFAIK, it's not a ticket, it's some sort of status dump of the ticket machine. So when an inspector sees that you have not touched in on the bus you are on, he can check some number against one on the "transfer" that the driver has given him, and see that you are travelling legally. So it does cover everyone who gets on the same bus you do. OTOH I have seen drivers issue more than one of these. Still, there are an awful lot of grey areas in the whole "stopping short" scenario. E. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 29 Mar, 15:01, " wrote:
It's just that I like things to be done the CORRECT way. And, if the driver was just too lazy to print out transfer tickets for every one, as I suspect he was obliged, then him waiting there for 20 minutes, at possibly his incovenience (since he could not go up to the Lillie Bridge turning point for coffee or a smoke) is no skin off my nose. Yes but for every jobsworth, pedant, whatever, that wants things done in what they perceive as the CORRECT fashion there tends to be another dozen that just want to be on their way with the minimum of formality to compound an already delayed journey. A much more common scenario is for a bus to be turned short because another is "on its tail". Under these circs is it still your preference that a separate ticket be generated for maybe 30 transferees (by which time the other bus) will potentially be heading off into the horizon? He got no abuse from me, but several of the other passengers gave him an earful for making us wait on a freezing cold night for another bus at all! *Although I would never abuse a bus driver, that he was made to feel uncomfortable by the other passengers, sharing our misery in waiting on a freezing night, is fine with me. The decision to turn the bus short would not have been a unilateral one made by the driver. The reaction he got directly or tacitly is a good example of the sort of reason why fewer and fewer people are prepared to do bus driving long-term. -- gordon |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
Gordon,
Of course I understand the decision to terminate early was not the driver's unilateral decision, but the decision not to issue individual tickets was. Obviously, there was no bus on his tail - if there were, the scenario I described would not have arisen. It is precisely because there was no 28 bus behind that the issue arose. If there was, as has often happened, we would all just have traipsed onto it, pointing dejectedly to the bus we had just been ejected from. Eric, I appreciate what you say, but supposing I only wanted to travel one more stop, so got onto a 391 (several of which were following) together with my "ticket", where would that have left the other dozen passengers who had to wait, as it turns out, a further 20 minutes for another 28? Marc. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
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Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
In message
, " writes Of course I understand the decision to terminate early was not the driver's unilateral decision, but the decision not to issue individual tickets was. I've now found what I was looking for on the TfL website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11105.aspx "If a bus is curtailed short of its advertised destination and there are passengers on board who wish to travel further, the driver should issue a 'transfer ticket' to the driver of the next through bus." That implies to me that the driver should have issued the ticket to the next driver, not to a passenger. -- Paul Terry |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
In message , at 17:03:33 on Sun,
29 Mar 2009, Paul Terry remarked: "If a bus is curtailed short of its advertised destination and there are passengers on board who wish to travel further, the driver should issue a 'transfer ticket' to the driver of the next through bus." That implies to me that the driver should have issued the ticket to the next driver, not to a passenger. "to be handed to the driver", surely? -- Roland Perry |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 29 Mar, 17:03, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , " writes Of course I understand the decision to terminate early was not the driver's unilateral decision, but the decision not to issue individual tickets was. I've now found what I was looking for on the TfL website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11105.aspx "If a bus is curtailed short of its advertised destination and there are passengers on board who wish to travel further, the driver should issue a 'transfer ticket' to the driver of the next through bus." That implies to me that the driver should have issued the ticket to the next driver, not to a passenger. It implies to me that the notion that each passenger should be presented with "their own" individual transfer ticket is a complete red herring. In some circumstances I can't see that it would be a heinous crime for the driver to ask one of the passengers to oblige him by passing the ticket on to the next driver on his behalf. I suspect most people would have no problem in doing this. There could, for example, be a horrendous gap in the service in the opposite direction and plugging that at the earliest possible moment might be felt to be a more productive use of the driver than remaining as a kind of nanny or paper-pusher. Perhaps not the CORRECT procedure but surely there should still be room for a modicum of common sense, useful discretion by the driver and helpful co-operation between driver and passengers? The insinuation without any apparant evidence at all that the driver in the example given was necessarily a beneficiery of the short-turning to facilitate fags/coffee and that it was down to "laziness" on his part that all passengers were not issued with individual transfer tickets seems to me to be unreasonable and "shooting the messenger". With radio control, drivers destined to be picking up transferred passengers will in most cases be notified of this in advance so a sense of proportion should perhaps be brought to bear in relation to the logistics of the same group of passengers continuing their journey from the same location and time. -- gordon |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On Mar 29, 6:25�pm, " wrote:
On 29 Mar, 17:03, Paul Terry wrote: In message , " writes Of course I understand the decision to terminate early was not the driver's unilateral decision, but the decision not to issue individual tickets was. I've now found what I was looking for on the TfL website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11105.aspx "If a bus is curtailed short of its advertised destination and there are passengers on board who wish to travel further, the driver should issue a 'transfer ticket' to the driver of the next through bus." That implies to me that the driver should have issued the ticket to the next driver, not to a passenger. It implies to me that the notion that each passenger should be presented with "their own" individual transfer ticket is a complete red herring. In some circumstances I can't see that it would be a heinous crime for the driver to ask one of the passengers to oblige him by passing the ticket on to the next driver on his behalf. I suspect most people would have no problem in doing this. There could, for example, be a horrendous gap in the service in the opposite direction and plugging that at the earliest possible moment might be felt to be a more productive use of the driver than remaining as a kind of nanny or paper-pusher. Perhaps not the CORRECT procedure but surely there should still be room for a modicum of common sense, useful discretion by the driver and helpful co-operation between driver and passengers? The insinuation without any apparant evidence at all that the driver in the example given was necessarily a beneficiery of the short-turning to facilitate fags/coffee and that it was down to "laziness" on his part that all passengers were not issued with individual transfer tickets seems to me to be unreasonable and "shooting the messenger". With radio control, drivers destined to be picking up transferred passengers will in most cases be notified of this in advance so a sense of proportion should perhaps be brought to bear in relation to the logistics of the same group of passengers continuing their journey from the same location and time. -- gordon- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Gordon, The very fact that the driver did, in the end, wait 20 minutes for the following bus rather gives the lie to the assertion that he was expected to plug an immediate gap by turning immediately and going back the other way. In any event, even if he had been meant to do this, Lillie Road was a very odd place to be turned, since there is no immediate place to turn: the bus would have had to go about 2 stops' distance off route to meet the first place it could have turned around. I am in no way "shooting the messenger"! I did not object (as indeed everyone else did) to the FACT that the bus was turning short: I was merely suggesting that the correct procedure ought to be adopted. I note with interest that the effect of the old London Transport rule (I could not remember its precise wording) that it was a conductor's duty to ensure that all passengers were safely transferred to a following bus, has been maintained, as helpfully quoted by Paul Terry above. Gordon, you talk about co-operation and commonsense, but you have not answered the question I posed as to what would happen if I had boarded another bus from all the other passengers and left them stranded without the magic ticket. In order for me to be safe from an inspector, the bus I boarded would have had to keep the ticket, and it would have been absurd to expect me instead, having boarded the other bus and explained to that driver what was happening, to then reclaim the ticket from him and hand it on to one of the remaining passengers. I stand by my assertion that it was initially laziness on the part of the driver in refusing to issue tickets to the other passengers: what other possible reason could he have had for refusing to do so? What is most worrying is that had it not been for me, all of the other passengers would have simply boarded the next bus and paid another fare. Why should they, when totally outside their control their original journey is cut short? If I had not asked, the driver was certainly not volunteering to print anything out at all. That's why I think he was lazy. Marc. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On 29 Mar, 20:49, " wrote:
Gordon, you talk about co-operation and commonsense, but you have not answered the question I posed as to what would happen if I had boarded another bus from all the other passengers and left them stranded without the magic ticket. * They would have been conveyed on the next bus on the same route as the short-turned bus. In the unlikely event that the second driver had not heard a radio message instructing him/her to pick up the transferring passengers he/she could radio in for verification if he/she was minded to do so. The mere lack of a transfer slip would not frustrate the exercise and it would hardly be an earth-shaking experience for any inspector chancing to board to find that on this occasion there was no slip - it would not be difficult to establish that such a transfer had taken place and if a member of staff was felt to be lax he/she might well be pulled up about it. Incidentally I wasn't suggesting that the occasional need for buses to be short-turned in order to slot into gaps in the opposite direction was relevant to your case which it clearly wasn't. I merely mentioned this as one of several examples of where it might be logical for a short-turning driver not to await the arrival of the bus behind. The tradition of short-notice short-turning has been rife in London for many years and if it depended on each and every occasion upon a transfer slip being handed over from first to second driver (or conductor to conductor in the old days) there would be continual evidence of the "cure" being considerably worse than the "disease". -- gordon |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: Are not the rules that the driver/conductor of a bus turning short either has to enure (as the driver eventually did) that he has communicated with the following bus so that the transferring passengers do not have to pay twice, or give EACH passenger that asks for it a transfer ticket? And announces that they exist? Most people probably don't know. The best solution would be to allow connectional journeys on buses for free. (i.e. if you touch in on a bus within an hour, say, of touching in on another bus, you don't pay another quid). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
Greetings.
In article , Neil Williams wrote: On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: Are not the rules that the driver/conductor of a bus turning short either has to enure (as the driver eventually did) that he has communicated with the following bus so that the transferring passengers do not have to pay twice, or give EACH passenger that asks for it a transfer ticket? And announces that they exist? Most people probably don't know. The best solution would be to allow connectional journeys on buses for free. (i.e. if you touch in on a bus within an hour, say, of touching in on another bus, you don't pay another quid). And what if you paid cash? Regards, Tristan -- _ _V.-o Tristan Miller Space is limited / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- In a haiku, so it's hard (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ To finish what you |
Buses that terminate short: procedure to be adopted
Tristan Miller wrote:
Greetings. In article , Neil Williams wrote: On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: Are not the rules that the driver/conductor of a bus turning short either has to enure (as the driver eventually did) that he has communicated with the following bus so that the transferring passengers do not have to pay twice, or give EACH passenger that asks for it a transfer ticket? And announces that they exist? Most people probably don't know. The best solution would be to allow connectional journeys on buses for free. (i.e. if you touch in on a bus within an hour, say, of touching in on another bus, you don't pay another quid). And what if you paid cash? Same thing-just show your (time-stamped) ticket to the driver. It seems to work in cities everywhere other than .uk! -- Current nearest station: Wandsworth Common |
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