Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Hola all

I have questions for those with knowledge
of bus services during the 1930's - 1950's


During this period, were there Nightbuses?
If yes, were there many, or just a few routes?
If so, what were these routes?

What times did these buses operate between and was
the fare pricing the same as daytime operations?


During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?
I've heard this was a special pricing system for
workers in the Docks etc. How did this work?

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which
qualified for 'workmans ticket' and if so, how did
you prove you qualified?

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

When was the 'workmans ticket' introduced and when did it stop?


Finally, during this period, which were the most common
buses to see throughout East and Central London?





Many thanks for any help you can give.

Apologies for the crosspost


please reply to group

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Rizla Ranger UK" wrote in message
om...

During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?
I've heard this was a special pricing system for
workers in the Docks etc. How did this work?

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which
qualified for 'workmans ticket' and if so, how did
you prove you qualified?

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

When was the 'workmans ticket' introduced and when did it stop?

Regarding the above, typically workmen's tickets were issued before 08:00,
and were half-price, IIRC. I took a train back in about 1947, from Ludlow to
Worcester, and we travelled on Workmen's tickets. As I was only about 14 at
the time, it just required one to leave before 08:00. No other qualification
required.

They had been available for a very long time, but I don't know when they
ceased. That was on the GWR still, I fancy. Presumably the same rules
applied elsewhere. Regarding buses, all the workmen's services I know of
charged normal fares.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Terry Harper" wrote in message
...
"Rizla Ranger UK" wrote in message
om...

During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?
I've heard this was a special pricing system for
workers in the Docks etc. How did this work?

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which
qualified for 'workmans ticket' and if so, how did
you prove you qualified?

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

When was the 'workmans ticket' introduced and when did it stop?

Regarding the above, typically workmen's tickets were issued before 08:00,
and were half-price, IIRC. I took a train back in about 1947, from Ludlow
to
Worcester, and we travelled on Workmen's tickets. As I was only about 14
at
the time, it just required one to leave before 08:00. No other
qualification
required.

What a great idea. Shame we have a system now that charges double for
travel before 09:30!

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

In message , Rizla
Ranger UK writes

I have questions for those with knowledge
of bus services during the 1930's - 1950's


During this period, were there Nightbuses?

Remember that many routes were actually operated by trams and then by
trolley-buses back in those days.

If yes, were there many, or just a few routes?
If so, what were these routes?

In London, my 1931 timetable shows all-night trams on 9 LCC routes, from
Victoria Embankment to:
Battersea (*)
Tooting via Streatham,
Tooting via Clapham,
New Cross Gate
Downham.
Going north, from Holborn/Bloomsbury to:
Hampstead (*)
Highgate (*)
Stamford Hill
Poplar.

All half-hourly, except those marked (*) which were hourly - although
not all routes operated at precise regular intervals.

I don't know what, if any, all-night services were provided by other
companies, such as London United or the local council systems.

I don't see much sign of LGOC operating all-night buses in the 1920s,
but it is possible they had started such services by the '30s - perhaps
someone else will know.

After trolley-buses replaced trams, all-night services were maintained
on most routes (and a few new routes were introduced) - mostly hourly,
but more frequent on the Stamford Hill and Poplar (now extended to
Barking) routes. Since some of the tram routes above were replaced by
buses, I think it likely that all-night buses were in operation by now.

What times did these buses operate between

Between last tram of the normal service and first of the next morning -
roughly 01:00 to 04:45, although some routes started at around 00:15.

and was the fare pricing the same as daytime operations?

I don't have any evidence to the contrary.

During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?

Reduced-price tickets for early travel on the outward journey.

I've heard this was a special pricing system for workers in the Docks
etc.

Not especially.

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which qualified for
'workmans ticket'

No. You just had to leave for work before 08:00 in most places.

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

Often half price - a return ticket for the price of a single.

It is worth remembering that many of these all-night services operated
primarily for night workers and early-starters (those working in the
newspaper and transport industries, for example) rather than for
late-night revellers.

I suspect that workmen's tickets date back a very long way. Their origin
was probably in Gladstone's 1844 "parliamentary trains" act, which
required railway companies to transport third-class passengers for no
more than a penny a mile - this supposedly being some sort of recompense
for the thousands of low-paid workers displaced when railways tore down
inner-city properties.

Most companies fulfilled the letter of the law by running very
early-morning services for workers at these reduced rates. The bus and
tram companies adopted similar ticketing (although with a later time
limit) because they were in competition for inner-city passengers. I
don't know when workmen's tickets ended - I would guess by about 1960.

--
Paul Terry

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

From: Paul Terry
Date: 01/10/2003 18:23 GMT Daylight Time

I
don't know when workmen's tickets ended - I would guess by about 1960.

My information is that on LT trams and trolleybuses they ended in 1950.
Following a public outcry though they were introduced on LT buses (both Central
and Country) in 1952 under the rather less proletarian title of "Early Morning
Returns". When EMRs finished I don't know however.

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

On 1 Oct 2003 07:58:27 -0700, Rizla Ranger UK wrote in
, seen in
uk.transport.buses:

I have questions for those with knowledge
of bus services during the 1930's - 1950's

During this period, were there Nightbuses?
If yes, were there many, or just a few routes?
If so, what were these routes?

In Birmingham, night services ran on the main radial routes from the
city centre on an hourly basis regardless of the frequency of the
daytime service.


What times did these buses operate between and was
the fare pricing the same as daytime operations?

Again, for Birmingham:
23.30 - 04.30 Sun/Mon - Fri/Sat, 23.30 - 06.30 Sat/Sun.
Fares were (roughly) 50% higher than daytime services.


During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?

Cheap rate return tickets for pretty much anyone arriving at their
destination before 08.30 or some other specified time. Some operators
specified that office types (i.e. those who wore shirts and ties
instead of work clothes such as overalls) weren't entitled to those
fares.

The actual rates varied and on Midland Red, for example, a Workman's
Return at times cost little less than two single tickets - but at that
time Midland Red didn't generally issue return tickets and presumably
it was easier for the workers to keep hold of a bus ticket than not
spend the bus fare for the return journey...

AFAIK Workmen's Tickets were mostly withdrawn by the end of the 1960s.
--
Ross Hamilton, in Lincoln (UK)
From address *will* bounce

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

In article , (Terry Harper) wrote:

Regarding the above, typically workmen's tickets were issued before
08:00,
and were half-price, IIRC.

On LT buses the Workmen's Ticket (before 8 a.m.) was 2d flat fare. I used to get the 126 from Falconwood to Bromley South on my way to
school in the mid-1950s, and it was very useful when my bus pass was not valid for some reason: otherwise it would have cost 10d!

--
Peter Beale

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

In article , are (Acrosticus) wrote:

My information is that on LT trams and trolleybuses they ended in 1950.
Following a public outcry though they were introduced on LT buses (both
Central
and Country) in 1952 under the rather less proletarian title of "Early
Morning
Returns". When EMRs finished I don't know however.

Are you sure about the returns bit? To my knowledge from travelling on central buses throughout the 1950s return tickets were never issued -
I think they were Early Morning Singles.

--
Peter Beale

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

In article , (Rizla Ranger UK) wrote:

During this period, were there Nightbuses?
If yes, were there many, or just a few routes?
If so, what were these routes?

1959:

BUSES
168 Wandsworth to Farringdon Street via Clapham Junction
285 Charing Cross Underground Station (now Embankment) to Downham, 2 journeys to Grove Park
286 Charing Cross (as above) to New Cross Gate
287 Charing Cross to Charing Cross via Blackfriars or Westminster (alternately), Kennington, Clapham
288 Wandworth to Farringdon Street via Battersea
289 Southall to London Bridge Stn
290 Edmonton to Pimlico
291 Willesden to Liverpool Street Stn
292 Trafalgar Square to Highgate (Archway Road)
294 Cricklewood to Liverpool Street Stn
295 Becontree Heath to Trafalgar Square
296 Leyton to Waterloo Stn
297 Turnham Green to Liverpool Street Stn
298 Hornchurch to Trafalgar Square
Inter-Station Bus (Waterloo, Victoria, Paddington, Euston, King's Cross)

TROLLEYBUSES
513 Hampstead Heath to Holborn Circus via Gray's Inn Road, returning via Farringdon Road
543 Stamford Hill to Holborn Circus via Gray's Inn Road, returning via Farringdon Road
613 Reverse of 513
630 Tooting to Hammersmith
643 Reverse of 543
665 Poplar to Bloomsbury


--
Peter Beale

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:18 +0100 (BST), (Peter Beale)
wrote:

In article , are (Acrosticus) wrote:

My information is that on LT trams and trolleybuses they ended in 1950.
Following a public outcry though they were introduced on LT buses (both
Central
and Country) in 1952 under the rather less proletarian title of "Early
Morning
Returns". When EMRs finished I don't know however.

Are you sure about the returns bit? To my knowledge from travelling on central buses throughout the 1950s return tickets were never issued -
I think they were Early Morning Singles.

And identified by fare code EMS on Gibson ticket machines? We always
wondered what these were for.

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

In article , (Ken Wheatley) wrote:

And identified by fare code EMS on Gibson ticket machines? We always
wondered what these were for.

Probably. In my day they were proper tickets, pretty colours and punched by the conductor!

--
Peter Beale

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Peter Beale wrote:
In article ,
(Ken Wheatley) wrote:

And identified by fare code EMS on Gibson ticket machines?
We always
wondered what these were for.

Probably. In my day they were proper tickets, pretty
colours and punched by the conductor!

So violence on public transport is nothing new then? :-))

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Cast_Iron wrote:
Peter Beale wrote:
And identified by fare code EMS on Gibson ticket machines?
We always
wondered what these were for.

Probably. In my day they were proper tickets, pretty
colours and punched by the conductor!

So violence on public transport is nothing new then? :-))

There must have been many a time when unruly schoolchildren sat next to the
aisle on an RT/RTL, etc. were "accidentally on purpose" clouted on the head,
thereby re-arranging the grey cells, by a strategically height-adjusted
Gibson ticket machine!
Law and order/ peace and quiet for everyone else ... :-)

Have a nice Day
Paul


--
Get the mail to the right temperature :-

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Workemens tickets originated, as far as I know, when Liverpool St
station was built in London (about 1870?)

The station required demolition of a huge amount of cheap slum
housing, causing a public outcry, and a demand that the railway be
forced to do something in compensation for displacing all those low
income people. The result was cheap commuting tickets from new cheap
housing built up the line. The previous train users didn't really
welcome all those unwashed people on their trains, so the tickets
were timed so that the new users would have to travel at a different
time from the middle classes.

Jeremy Parker

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Paul Brown" wrote in message
...
Cast_Iron wrote:
Peter Beale wrote:
And identified by fare code EMS on Gibson ticket machines?
We always
wondered what these were for.

Probably. In my day they were proper tickets, pretty
colours and punched by the conductor!

So violence on public transport is nothing new then? :-))

There must have been many a time when unruly schoolchildren sat next to
the
aisle on an RT/RTL, etc. were "accidentally on purpose" clouted on the
head,
thereby re-arranging the grey cells, by a strategically height-adjusted
Gibson ticket machine!
Law and order/ peace and quiet for everyone else ... :-)

LOL and quite right too - noisy little beggars!!

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Paul Brown" wrote in message
...

There must have been many a time when unruly schoolchildren sat next to
the
aisle on an RT/RTL, etc. were "accidentally on purpose" clouted on the
head,
thereby re-arranging the grey cells, by a strategically height-adjusted
Gibson ticket machine!
Law and order/ peace and quiet for everyone else ... :-)

And before the advent of ticket machines, the ticket rack served a similar
purpose.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

Many thanks for all your help, guys!

Very informative replies.


The questions were in relation to a small family
history project, and I will likely return to ask
some more.


But for now, what were the old LT ticket machines
on buses called? Did they have a manufacturers name
or a colloquial name? I mean the aluminium ones with
black plastic 'cog' on the side (fare selector?) and
a handle to print out the ticket. The print was usually
purple and the machines looked ancient by the late 70's
early 80's.


Again, many thanks for the responses!





Rizla Ranger UK wrote
Hola all

I have questions for those with knowledge
of bus services during the 1930's - 1950's


During this period, were there Nightbuses?
If yes, were there many, or just a few routes?
If so, what were these routes?

What times did these buses operate between and was
the fare pricing the same as daytime operations?


During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?
I've heard this was a special pricing system for
workers in the Docks etc. How did this work?

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which
qualified for 'workmans ticket' and if so, how did
you prove you qualified?

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

When was the 'workmans ticket' introduced and when did it stop?


Finally, during this period, which were the most common
buses to see throughout East and Central London?





Many thanks for any help you can give.

Apologies for the crosspost


please reply to group

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Rizla Ranger UK" wrote in message
om...

But for now, what were the old LT ticket machines
on buses called? Did they have a manufacturers name
or a colloquial name? I mean the aluminium ones with
black plastic 'cog' on the side (fare selector?) and
a handle to print out the ticket. The print was usually
purple and the machines looked ancient by the late 70's
early 80's.

That would be the Gibson machine, named after its designer. If you find
one in good condition for sale, let me know..!!

Ivor

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:40:59 +0100, Ivor Jones wrote in
, seen in uk.transport.buses:

[...]
That would be the Gibson machine, named after its designer. If you find
one in good condition for sale, let me know..!!

I sold two earlier this year on eBay. Both went for well in excess of
£100.

I could do you a Setright instead, though. ;-)
--
Ross Hamilton, in Lincoln (UK)
From address *will* bounce

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Ross" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:40:59 +0100, Ivor Jones wrote in
, seen in uk.transport.buses:

[...]
That would be the Gibson machine, named after its designer. If you find
one in good condition for sale, let me know..!!

I sold two earlier this year on eBay. Both went for well in excess of
£100.

I could do you a Setright instead, though. ;-)

Already have one of those..! Didn't think of eBay, I'll take a look.

Ivor

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Terry Harper" wrote in message ...
"Rizla Ranger UK" wrote in message
om...

During this period, what were 'Workmans Tickets'?
I've heard this was a special pricing system for
workers in the Docks etc. How did this work?

Were there a list of prescribed occupations which
qualified for 'workmans ticket' and if so, how did
you prove you qualified?

How much below the standard fare did this price fall?

When was the 'workmans ticket' introduced and when did it stop?

Regarding the above, typically workmen's tickets were issued before 08:00,
and were half-price, IIRC. I took a train back in about 1947, from Ludlow to
Worcester, and we travelled on Workmen's tickets. As I was only about 14 at
the time, it just required one to leave before 08:00. No other qualification
required.

They had been available for a very long time, but I don't know when they
ceased. That was on the GWR still, I fancy. Presumably the same rules
applied elsewhere. Regarding buses, all the workmen's services I know of
charged normal fares.

Oh, what happy memories this brought back! Workmen's weeklies!!

When I was at university I supplemented my meagre allowance working
for the Lincolnshire Road Car (or Road Car as it was known locally) as
a conductor. My first allocation was to S****horpe where the workmen's
buses to the steelworks ran almost 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

The first SUNDAY morning turn was: 3.40 am sign on, 3.50 dead car to
Yaddlethorpe X Roads, 4.05 Service Yaddlethorpe X Rds - Appleby
Extensions.

Full house, 56 or 60 seater: 20 minutes to get in SEVEN DAY weeklies -
slot in front of Setright Speed machine, but you had to carry the
tickets by hand. When you went upstairs you couldn't see the front
windows for a "fug" created either by Woodbines, Players Weights or
the atrocious "Old Holborn".

At that time in the morning, few words were spoken, especially as the
conductor had to get up from his "digs" in Brigg Road at 3 a.m. on a
Sunday and cycle to the depot, breakfastless and the canteen didn't
open until 9 a.m.

Okay you finished at noon but I was so hard up I had to go back for
the evening peak "duplicates".

Just after the war, Eastern National in Essex had workmen's tickets
specifically for the big Chelmsford employers, Marconi, Crompton
Parkinson, English Electric, Hoffmann's etc and ran similar services
for Crittall in the Braintree-Witham area. These services were ONLY
available to passengers holding a weekly ticket and they were marked
in the timetable with a P for Priority. "Priority will be given to
weekly season ticket holders".

Outside of London, some operators simplified workmen's fares (usually
from 6 a.m. onwards until about 8) by making the Workmen's Return fare
the same as the ordinary single fare. It was, I think, part of
"getting Britain back on it's feet". Many timetables of the period
ask passengers to avoid 7-9 a.m. "when we are busy conveying workers"
Southern/Western National starred such journeys in their timetables
with "Limited Accommodation, subject to change without notice" (i.e.
non workers not welcome).

I do know that the London trams/trolleybuses/buses started as early as
we did for the Docks area and also for Smithfield and maybe other
places I do not know.

In far away Lincolnshire we didn't have any all night services but
there was only about a four hour gap when Road Car buses were not on
the road in the S****horpe area. We had ONE vehicle on the road, I
think, on an overnight express service from London to Cleethorpes
(certainly in the summer).

And three am on a Sunday morning is still a "killer" start even in
2003 I would guess. Do any still exist I wonder? But it's the
cigarette smoke upstairs that I mostly remember: it just hung in the
air and I probably got through the equivalent of a 100 Players Weights
on just a few journeys if reports about "passive" smoking are correct.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Alan Watkins" wrote in message
om...

Oh, what happy memories this brought back! Workmen's weeklies!!

big snip

What a super lot of reminiscences, Alan. I could almost smell the Woodbines.

I spent 3 months serving His Majesty at RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey, and spent
several Wednesdays visiting the Infirmary in S****horpe to have a sprained
wrist checked. I had slipped on our highly polished barrack room floor:-)

Transport to and fro was by the recently acquired Enterprise and Silver Dawn
service, with some in Lincolnshire green and some in the original red
livery.

We also had a trip home for Christmas1951 in an Albion coach (not a Nimbus,
but a 4-cylinder beast with a full front and not much urge) which dropped me
at home about 4 a.m. I can't recall who operated it, but it was fairly local
to the top end of Lincolnshire.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Night Buses, Workmans Tickets (history question)
 

"Terry Harper" wrote in message ...
"Alan Watkins" wrote in message
om...

Oh, what happy memories this brought back! Workmen's weeklies!!

big snip

What a super lot of reminiscences, Alan. I could almost smell the Woodbines.

I spent 3 months serving His Majesty at RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey, and spent
several Wednesdays visiting the Infirmary in S****horpe to have a sprained
wrist checked. I had slipped on our highly polished barrack room floor:-)

Transport to and fro was by the recently acquired Enterprise and Silver Dawn
service, with some in Lincolnshire green and some in the original red
livery.

We also had a trip home for Christmas1951 in an Albion coach (not a Nimbus,
but a 4-cylinder beast with a full front and not much urge) which dropped me
at home about 4 a.m. I can't recall who operated it, but it was fairly local
to the top end of Lincolnshire.

I remember RAF Kirton Lindsey although not as early as 1951! Service
103 :):) 2/11d return by the early 1960's. Last bus Saturday at 11
p.m. was three double deckers.

That was Road Car's problem: massive "peaks" at awkward hours and
nothing in between.

When I was sent to Louth depot one Christmas I discovered that the 4
p.m. Louth-Grimsby Service 50 on a Thursday (market day at Louth) was
three double deckers and and a saloon. Louth only had two double
deckers and one was at Grimsby at that time coming "back" to Louth so
the three duplicates were provided by Grimsby with massive dead
mileage.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins