Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

Ian Jelf wrote:
I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

Late Met trains stopped at Willesden Green and Neasden not too long ago....
I think that has stopped now.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

In message , Ian Jelf
writes

I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

I think the practice started in the early 60s, when District services
west of London were being cut back. Offering an interchange at Turnham
Green provided greater flexibility, but the additional stop was too
disruptive to the fast-running section of the Piccadilly line to be
offered during the main part of the Monday-Friday timetable.

There was a time in the 70s when the hours of the Turnham Green stoppers
were extended, but they were cut back again due to little usage. In
recent years, there has been much local demand (and a petition) to get
the Piccadilly to stop there throughout the day, but LU has maintained
the position that it would reduce the capacity of the line, at least
until signalling is improved.
--
Paul Terry

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

"Ian Jelf" wrote
I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham Green
the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

I've always liked to imagine that they have adjustable colour-coded signs
there. When the sparse service of Piccadilly Line trains is due, they change
them to blue. When the last Piccadilly train has gone, they turn'em green.

Sorry.
I'll go now.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 14, 9:02*am, Ian Jelf wrote:
I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? * How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? * (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Actually, I think it's very common for the faster or longer distance
trains to make additional stops Sundays and evenings.

Often, it coincides with a lack of local services and/or some stations
closed, leaving only the longer distance trains to call at the
remaining stations.

For example, trains from Liverpool Street to Southend call at Gidea
Park, Harold Wood and Brentwood on Sundays, trains from Charing Cross
to Ramsgate and Margate call at Orpington and Sevenoaks on Sundays etc
etc.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 14, 4:22*pm, MIG wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:02*am, Ian Jelf wrote:

I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? * How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? * (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Actually, I think it's very common for the faster or longer distance
trains to make additional stops Sundays and evenings.

Often, it coincides with a lack of local services and/or some stations
closed, leaving only the longer distance trains to call at the
remaining stations.

For example, trains from Liverpool Street to Southend call at Gidea
Park, Harold Wood and Brentwood on Sundays, trains from Charing Cross
to Ramsgate and Margate call at Orpington and Sevenoaks on Sundays etc
etc.

Or keeping it to LU, there used to be slow Amershams on Sundays only,
and still extra stops at Wembley Park on Sundays I think.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Apr 14, 4:22 pm, MIG wrote:
On Apr 14, 9:02 am, Ian Jelf wrote:

I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham
Green the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of
Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Actually, I think it's very common for the faster or longer distance
trains to make additional stops Sundays and evenings.

Often, it coincides with a lack of local services and/or some stations
closed, leaving only the longer distance trains to call at the
remaining stations.

For example, trains from Liverpool Street to Southend call at Gidea
Park, Harold Wood and Brentwood on Sundays, trains from Charing Cross
to Ramsgate and Margate call at Orpington and Sevenoaks on Sundays etc
etc.

Or keeping it to LU, there used to be slow Amershams on Sundays only,
and still extra stops at Wembley Park on Sundays I think.

Never heard of a slow Amersham train they must of taken a while.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Ian Jelf
writes

I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham Green
the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

I think the practice started in the early 60s, when District services west
of London were being cut back. Offering an interchange at Turnham Green
provided greater flexibility, but the additional stop was too disruptive
to the fast-running section of the Piccadilly line to be offered during
the main part of the Monday-Friday timetable.

As you say it allows connection into the District trains to/from Richmond
when the Ealin services are less frequent.

But IME, the evening service starts much later than it needs to without
disrupting the service. It could easily start an hour earlier and none of
the Picc pax would be disrupted.

tim

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009, John Salmon wrote:

"Ian Jelf" wrote
I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham Green
the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it come
to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel elsewhere
on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

I've always liked to imagine that they have adjustable colour-coded
signs there. When the sparse service of Piccadilly Line trains is due,
they change them to blue. When the last Piccadilly train has gone, they
turn'em green.

Oh, i thought the whole point of having the Picc occasionally stop there
was so that in the peaks, it can whizz right past the waiting commuters,
inducing feelings of great envy, and thus turn 'em green.

tom

--
Teach us how to die well

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

sweek wrote on 20 April 2009 11:23:23 ...
Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M). (2007 figures on the TfL
site, the most recent available)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

In message , at 09:31:57
on Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Richard J. remarked:
Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M).

There's a big college just across the road, isn't there? And it's not
exactly the sort of area any sane person would drive to on account of
all the major roads.
--
Roland Perry

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:31:57 on Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Richard J.
remarked:

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc
and replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the
station per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M).

That's only slightly more, and I wouldn't be surprised if switching the
Piccadilly Line stopping pattern caused a switch of the figures.

And it's not
exactly the sort of area any sane person would drive to on account of
all the major roads.

LOL.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On 20 Apr, 11:51, "John Rowland"
wrote:
That's only slightly more, and I wouldn't be surprised if switching the
Piccadilly Line stopping pattern caused a switch of the figures.

If you wanted to go west on the Piccadilly Line and were starting from
Baron's Court, you'd have a difficult change at Earl's Court. Whereas
Turnham Green has cross-platform changes to the Picc in both
directions.

U

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 20, 12:04*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 20 Apr, 11:51, "John Rowland"
wrote:
That's only slightly more, and I wouldn't be surprised if switching the
Piccadilly Line stopping pattern caused a switch of the figures.

If you wanted to go west on the Piccadilly Line and were starting from
Baron's Court, you'd have a difficult change at Earl's Court. Whereas
Turnham Green has cross-platform changes to the Picc in both
directions.


ITYM "If you wanted to go *east*"...

If you wanted to go *west* from Baron's Court then it's one stop on
the District to Hammersmith where there's cross-platform interchange
with the Picc, and the same applies v.v.

Of course going east from Baron's Court, into central London, would be
the fiddly change.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

John Rowland wrote on 20 April
2009 12:51:57 ...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
09:31:57 on Mon, 20 Apr 2009, Richard J.
remarked:
Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc
and replace it with Turnham Green?
No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the
station per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M).

That's only slightly more, and I wouldn't be surprised if switching the
Piccadilly Line stopping pattern caused a switch of the figures.

If Barons Court was a little-used station, there might be some merit in
the suggestion that the Picc should stop at Turnham Green instead of at
Barons Court. But it isn't, and those of us who have campaigned for an
all-day stop at TG are not trying to do so by taking away another busy
station's service.

In any case the problem in the short term is the signalling at TG which
is unsuitable for running the peak service reliably if all trains stop
at TG, and the fact that LU are not willing to spend money fiddling with
an old system which is going to be replaced within a few years anyway.
Swapping the situations at TG and Barons Court wouldn't help without
changes to the signalling at *both* locations.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On 20 Apr, 10:31, "Richard J." wrote:
sweek wrote on 20 April 2009 11:23:23 ...

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M). * (2007 figures on the TfL
site, the most recent available)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

I know that, but aside from the lower number of people getting on and
off at Turnham Green itself, it would also speed up journeys for all
the stations on the Richmond Branch. That's got be worth something?

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 20, 1:22*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 20, 12:04*pm, Mr Thant

wrote:
On 20 Apr, 11:51, "John Rowland"
wrote:
That's only slightly more, and I wouldn't be surprised if switching the
Piccadilly Line stopping pattern caused a switch of the figures.

If you wanted to go west on the Piccadilly Line and were starting from
Baron's Court, you'd have a difficult change at Earl's Court. Whereas
Turnham Green has cross-platform changes to the Picc in both
directions.

ITYM "If you wanted to go *east*"...

If you wanted to go *west* from Baron's Court then it's one stop on
the District to Hammersmith where there's cross-platform interchange
with the Picc, and the same applies v.v.

Of course going east from Baron's Court, into central London, would be
the fiddly change.

If I was going east in those circumstances, I'd still probably do
Hammersmith and back with a footbridge, rather than Earls Court. Not
that I am in favour of not stopping at Barons Court.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

sweek wrote on 20 April 2009 17:29:10 ...
On 20 Apr, 10:31, "Richard J." wrote:
sweek wrote on 20 April 2009 11:23:23 ...

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M). (2007 figures on the TfL
site, the most recent available)

I know that, but aside from the lower number of people getting on and
off at Turnham Green itself, it would also speed up journeys for all
the stations on the Richmond Branch. That's got be worth something?

Yes, of course, but if you're arguing benefits, you need to set them
against the corresponding disbenefit of whatever change is proposed - an
extra stop at TG or swapping Barons Court for TG or whatever. The extra
stop at TG doesn't quite produce a net benefit on current figures, but
LU have promised to review the situation when the Piccadilly
resignalling starts in a few year's time. Meanwhile there is arguably
the possibility of extending the hours during which Picc trains stop at
TG, but we haven't yet convinced LU.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:09:01 +0100, "John Salmon"
wrote:

"Ian Jelf" wrote
I was on a late night Piccadilly Line train which stopped at Turnham Green
the other, er, night.

I've often wondered, what's the story behind that oddity? How did it
come to be a feature of the timetable? (I can think of no parallel
elsewhere on the system, at least not in even remotely recent years.)

I've always liked to imagine that they have adjustable colour-coded signs
there. When the sparse service of Piccadilly Line trains is due, they change
them to blue. When the last Piccadilly train has gone, they turn'em green.

Sorry.
I'll go now.

Why were two yellow peas standing on the westbound District Line
platform at Earls Court? Because it was the only way to 'turn'em
green'.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On 20 Apr, 13:22, Mizter T wrote:
ITYM "If you wanted to go *east*"...

No, this is the Piccadilly Line we're talking about, where east is
north and east is west and south is west and, one can only assume, at
Baron's Court west is east.

U

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 21, 10:10*am, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 20 Apr, 13:22, Mizter T wrote:

ITYM "If you wanted to go *east*"...

No, this is the Piccadilly Line we're talking about, where east is
north and east is west and south is west and, one can only assume, at
Baron's Court west is east.

U

Fair enough! I remember some slightly ridiculous discussion over what
constituted what direction was "officially" what, with some arguing
that regardless of what the compass might say, what LU said was the
"official" direction meant that is what it was. To which I thought,
balls, East is East!

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On 20 Apr, 13:22, Mizter T wrote:
ITYM "If you wanted to go *east*"...

No, this is the Piccadilly Line we're talking about, where east is
north and east is west and south is west and, one can only assume, at
Baron's Court west is east.

I don't think so, but at Cockfosters, West is East.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On 21 Apr, 12:34, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I don't think so, but at Cockfosters, West is East.

Yep, passengers heading towards Cockfosters are heading west (even
though the signs say east). Therefore passengers heading from Baron's
Court to Earl's Court - which is also towards Cockfosters - must also
be heading west, whatever the so-called signs say.

U

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 21, 12:45*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 21 Apr, 12:34, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I don't think so, but at Cockfosters, West is East.

Yep, passengers heading towards Cockfosters are heading west (even
though the signs say east). Therefore passengers heading from Baron's
Court to Earl's Court - which is also towards Cockfosters - must also
be heading west, whatever the so-called signs say.

U

And no-one - neither staff nor passengers - wear piccadills either.
Someone's trying to have us on.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

On Apr 21, 12:45*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 21 Apr, 12:34, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I don't think so, but at Cockfosters, West is East.

Yep, passengers heading towards Cockfosters are heading west (even
though the signs say east). Therefore passengers heading from Baron's
Court to Earl's Court - which is also towards Cockfosters - must also
be heading west, whatever the so-called signs say.

U

And no-one - neither staff nor passengers - wear piccadills either.
Someone's trying to have us on.

Very good! You weren't on my Tyburn Trail walk in Sunday were you,
where this very subject featured? ;-)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:55:17 +0100, tim..... wrote:

As you say it allows connection into the District trains to/from Richmond
when the Ealin services are less frequent.

But IME, the evening service starts much later than it needs to without
disrupting the service. It could easily start an hour earlier and none of
the Picc pax would be disrupted.

Err, what? How can trains in that hour stop at Turnham Green without
increasing the journey time for Picc passengers not getting on/off
there?

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:31:57 GMT, Richard J. wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M). (2007 figures on the TfL
site, the most recent available)

I don't see any reason to link these two issues. If a Picc stop at
Barons Court is not justified, then that's the case regardless of
whether it stops at Turnham Green. And vice versa.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On Apr 22, 11:30*pm, asdf wrote:

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:31:57 GMT, Richard J. wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Barons Court on the Picc and
replace it with Turnham Green?

No. Baron's Court has more passengers entering and exiting the station
per year (6.7M) than Turnham Green (5.9M). * (2007 figures on the TfL
site, the most recent available)

I don't see any reason to link these two issues. If a Picc stop at
Barons Court is not justified, then that's the case regardless of
whether it stops at Turnham Green. And vice versa.

The point is if a Picc stop could be justified at both Barons Court
and Turnham Green, then this could mean the Picc making an extra stop
compared to the current service - and that has all sorts of knock-on
implications for journey durations (esp. notable is Heathrow - central
London), timetabling and the number of trains required. So if there's
a desire not to upset that apple cart, then it becomes a bit of a
battle between Barons Court and Turnham Green.

Of course once the Picc has new signalling and ATO (? I presume that's
the plan) then maybe another stop could be slotted in without messing
up the timings too much.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

If the main issue with a long term stop at Turnham Green is the
increased journey times for Piccadilly line users then i'm all up for
replacing the stop at Barons Court with a stop at Turnham Green.
Barons Court and Turnham Green may have similar entry and exit numbers
but Turnham Green is at a point where the district line divides and
hence it has potential as a very useful interchange stop. If I'm
travelling from Richmond, Kew or Gunnersbury on the District Line and
need to travel West on the Piccadilly Line, this currently requires me
to first change on to an Ealing bound district line service to Acton
Town and then change on to the Piccadilly Line from there, adding
10-15 minutes to my journey. Likewise, if a traveller is on the
Heathrow or Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly Line going east and
wishes to travel on the Richmond Branch of the District Line they also
have this time wasting double change.

Let's not forget that Richmond is a major station, Kew Gardens a major
tourist attraction, and Gunnersbury an important business location and
a link with the Overground. The Piccadilly lines mentioned above also
have a large number of stations and a large catchment area including
Heathrow Airport. So this 10-15 minute time saving could translate
into a big overall time saving for a lot of people.

A stop at Turnham green would also benefit Chiswick Park, Richmond,
Kew and Gunnersbury east bound travellers who could get on the quicker
Piccadilly line going east at an earlier opportunity, the Ravenscourt
Park and Stamford Brook west bound travellers who could get on the
Piccadilly line going west at an earlier opportunity and of course the
Turnham green residents themselves:-)

So overall, a benefit to lots of people compared with a disadvantage
for the people at 1 underground stop (Barons Court) who will still
have two District Line services and a 1 stop west/2 stops east easy
change on to the Piccadilly Line.

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

In article
,
() wrote:

If the main issue with a long term stop at Turnham Green is the
increased journey times for Piccadilly line users then i'm all up for
replacing the stop at Barons Court with a stop at Turnham Green.
Barons Court and Turnham Green may have similar entry and exit numbers
but Turnham Green is at a point where the district line divides and
hence it has potential as a very useful interchange stop. If I'm
travelling from Richmond, Kew or Gunnersbury on the District Line and
need to travel West on the Piccadilly Line, this currently requires me
to first change on to an Ealing bound district line service to Acton
Town and then change on to the Piccadilly Line from there, adding
10-15 minutes to my journey. Likewise, if a traveller is on the
Heathrow or Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly Line going east and
wishes to travel on the Richmond Branch of the District Line they also
have this time wasting double change.

Let's not forget that Richmond is a major station, Kew Gardens a major
tourist attraction, and Gunnersbury an important business location and
a link with the Overground. The Piccadilly lines mentioned above also
have a large number of stations and a large catchment area including
Heathrow Airport. So this 10-15 minute time saving could translate
into a big overall time saving for a lot of people.

A stop at Turnham green would also benefit Chiswick Park, Richmond,
Kew and Gunnersbury east bound travellers who could get on the quicker
Piccadilly line going east at an earlier opportunity, the Ravenscourt
Park and Stamford Brook west bound travellers who could get on the
Piccadilly line going west at an earlier opportunity and of course the
Turnham green residents themselves:-)

So overall, a benefit to lots of people compared with a disadvantage
for the people at 1 underground stop (Barons Court) who will still
have two District Line services and a 1 stop west/2 stops east easy
change on to the Piccadilly Line.

Baron's Court is also at a point where the District line divides (from the
Piccadilly), just in the other direction.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

On May 15, 12:40*am, wrote:
In article
,

Baron's Court is also at a point where the District line divides (from the
Piccadilly), just in the other direction.

--
Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Um, no it's not. The district line divides at Earls Court to Olympia,
High Street Ken, Upminster and Wimbledon. It doesn't divide at Barons
Court at all!

Why we are on the subject, why not bin the Olympia district line
connection and replace it with a better Overground service. Users will
still have a 1 stop service on to the district line at West Brompton
and it will help alleviate some of the congestion at Earls Court which
is always an annoying bottle neck!

Piccadilly Turnham Green
 

In article
,
() wrote:

On May 15, 12:40*am, wrote:
In article
,

Baron's Court is also at a point where the District line divides
(from the Piccadilly), just in the other direction.

Um, no it's not. The district line divides at Earls Court to Olympia,
High Street Ken, Upminster and Wimbledon. It doesn't divide at Barons
Court at all!

The Piccadilly divides from the District, I meant.

--
Colin Rosenstiel