In message , at 10:44:16 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:
As the police have the power to instruct a driver to pass a red light (but
not a flashing red light) then stating that 'police always give a blanket
"thou shalt not go through a red light' is patent rubbish.

When the only "instruction" to do so is sirens and lights behind, the
police advise you don't run the red light. Obviously a quite separate
policemen (not inside the car in question) could instruct you to - but
that's a very different set of circumstances.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:47:22 on Sun, 19
Apr 2009, rail remarked:

There are plenty of examples of people being fined for getting out of
the way of emergency vehicles.

Where are these 'plenty of examples'? My local paper is full of them, not.

Here are some that featured in a recent thread on this very same subject:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...nting-cost-of-
good.1087412.jp

"A Department of Transport spokesman said: "The Highway Code
states that a vehicle should get out of the way of emergency
vehicles but not in a way that would endanger other road users.
Passing through a red light is illegal."

http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/new...t_police_car_t
hrough.asp

South Wales police car - which nicked the bloke for getting out of the
way (rather than nicking him for *not* getting out of the way).

Second case, in Doncaster;

"The law does not make allowances for motorists breaking traffic
laws to let emergency vehicles through."

http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/ne...for_red_light_
good_deed/

Police van with sirens in Manchester.

"Magistrates said they had sympathy with Whittam but saw no
special circumstances to excuse his offence."

As for police advice, it's very specific (as part of a long list of things
they don't expect you to do):

"We do NOT expect you to put yourself in danger by crossing red
traffic lights to make way for us."

http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/advice.htm

There are still circumstances where you can be instructed by a police officer
in uniform to pass a red light. eg when the lights have failed and the
crossing is being controlled manually.

Those are not the circumstances being advised upon when people are making
decisions to clear the road for a following police car.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

There are plenty of examples of people being fined for getting out of
the way of emergency vehicles.

As for police advice, it's very specific (as part of a long list of
things they don't expect you to do):

"We do NOT expect you to put yourself in danger by crossing red
traffic lights to make way for us."

http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/advice.htm

Thank you, a very useful link.

In message
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:44:16 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:
As the police have the power to instruct a driver to pass a red light (but
not a flashing red light) then stating that 'police always give a blanket
"thou shalt not go through a red light' is patent rubbish.

When the only "instruction" to do so is sirens and lights behind, the
police advise you don't run the red light. Obviously a quite separate
policemen (not inside the car in question) could instruct you to - but
that's a very different set of circumstances.

I would take a police car behind me blipping his siren as an instruction to
move aside. Note that doesn't necessarily mean running the red light as in
crossing the junction, but, as in the two times I've done it (and not been
prosecuted) crossing the white stop line and moving in front of the car in
the next lane. Admittedly neither time was the Met involved.

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

In message , at 11:24:48 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:
I would take a police car behind me blipping his siren as an instruction to
move aside.

The Met advice makes it quite clear what their expectations are.

Note that doesn't necessarily mean running the red light as in
crossing the junction, but, as in the two times I've done it (and not been
prosecuted) crossing the white stop line

The offence is crossing the white line, not literally passing the red
light.

and moving in front of the car in the next lane.

--
Roland Perry

In message
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:24:48 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:
I would take a police car behind me blipping his siren as an instruction
to move aside.

The Met advice makes it quite clear what their expectations are.

I did point out that specifically the Met were not involved.


Note that doesn't necessarily mean running the red light as in
crossing the junction, but, as in the two times I've done it (and not been
prosecuted) crossing the white stop line

The offence is crossing the white line, not literally passing the red
light.

Hence why I said that, your point is?


and moving in front of the car in the next lane.


--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

In message , at 11:56:31 on Sun,
19 Apr 2009, rail remarked:

I would take a police car behind me blipping his siren as an instruction
to move aside.

The Met advice makes it quite clear what their expectations are.

I did point out that specifically the Met were not involved.

I would not expect other forces to have different advice, particularly
when it comes to running red lights.

Note that doesn't necessarily mean running the red light as in
crossing the junction, but, as in the two times I've done it (and not been
prosecuted) crossing the white stop line

The offence is crossing the white line, not literally passing the red
light.

Hence why I said that, your point is?

That you were leaving yourself open to prosecution, especially if there
had been a camera.
--
Roland Perry

Mizter T wrote:

Anyway I reckon the boat for significant structural police reform in
this country has already sailed, and it was missed. It'll be a while
until there's another sailing.

Why?

"John Rowland" wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:
redcat wrote:

I'm coming to London soon. Maybe I should just leave my camera at
home :-/

Change your plans and then write to Gordon and Boris and say that the
lack of proper control over the police and their treatment of
photographers has meant you have decided to spend your tourist pounds
elsewhere.

I read that as "terrorist pounds"!


They've managed to get inside your head, you see.

[for any value of "They"]

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 10:57:32 +0100, Roland Perry put finger to
keyboard and typed:

In message , at
10:27:15 on Sun, 19 Apr 2009, MB remarked:
As for police advice, it's very specific (as part of a long list of
things they don't expect you to do):

"We do NOT expect you to put yourself in danger by crossing red
traffic lights to make way for us."

http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/advice.htm

That sounds like a clever way of saying "we would like you get out of our
way at traffic lights if it is safe but if you have an accident we will not
accept any responsibility and probably charge you"

Except when you look at the page as a whole, when it's clear that's not
the hidden meaning.

I think the last one on that page is the most telling:

We do NOT expect you to risk road camera fines by, for example,
moving in to bus lanes during hours of operation to make way for us.

That is, effectively, saying that making way for an emergency vehicle
is not considered sufficient grounds to challenge an automatically
issued fixed penalty notice from a camera monitored location. Bus
lanes are one common example of such locations, others would be
light-controlled junctions that have red light cameras.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk