In uk.transport.london Alistair Bell wrote:
Question then. ?When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid
London Terminal from Watford Junction. ?When it closed peak trains were
diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool
Street a valid London Terminal,

At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized
and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'.

Tickets to London used to be to 'London (SR)' from Surrey/Sussex/Kent
directions. What would have applied to the north of London, and would it
have divided the terminals you could have travelled to?

Theo

Alistair Bell wrote:
On Apr 20, 9:05 am, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than
that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as
a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for
Vauxhall.

However, Watford Junction is a routeing point, and London is a (Group)
routeing point, so you don't have to do a fares check to determine valid
routes, just check the map(s).

Doing that gives Map OV as the only map showing valid route(s) between
Watford Junction and London[1], i.e. to Euston via Willesden Junction.

The FRPP[2] has the following to say about tickets to "London Terminals":

Fares for travel to and from London Terminals are valid at the following
London Stations *subject to the route of the rail journey being
undertaken*, but do *not* include travel between these stations on
London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or London Buses. /(In
addition London Terminals fares are *not* valid if travelling beyond St.
Pancras International from the north or beyond City Thameslink from the
south.)/

City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, London Cannon
Street, London Charing Cross, London Euston, London Fenchurch Street,
London Kings Cross, London Marylebone, London Liverpool Street, London
Paddington, London St Pancras International, London Victoria, London
Waterloo, Moorgate Underground, Old Street Underground, Vauxhall.

For example:-

+ A ticket from 'Birmingham Stations' to 'LONDON TERMINALS' may be valid
to Euston or Marylebone, or both, but it is not valid for onward travel
to Liverpool Street or Victoria via London Underground.

+ A ticket from 'LONDON TERMINALS' to 'Brighton' route 'ANY PERMITTED'
is valid from Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City
Thameslink, London Bridge, Victoria, Vauxhall or Waterloo. It is not
however valid from Euston or any other designated London terminal station.

*A Travelcard or other ticket valid for travel in Zone U1 will be
required if the customer wishes to end or start their journey at any
other London terminal station not on the line of route.*

YMMV, IANAL, etc.

Cheers,

Barry


[1] For routeing purposes, London comprises Bethnal Green, Blackfriars,
Cannon Street, Charing Cross, City Thameslink, Euston, Fenchurch Street,
Kings Cross, Kings Cross Thameslink(!), Liverpool Street, London Bridge,
Marylebone, Moorgate, Old Street, Paddington, St Pancras, Victoria,
Waterloo and Waterloo East.

[2] Fares and Retail Publications Portal

"Alistair Bell" wrote in message
...


So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well
differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and
sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway...

But that is probably because they ask for a ticket to London and in
ignorance are given a travel card. I work at Euston so I always get asked
inclding zone 1 and I say no but then I know what to ask for.

Kevin

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:40:56 -0700 (PDT),
Alistair Bell wrote:
On Apr 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than
that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as
a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for
Vauxhall.


Don't get your comment about fares to Clapham Junction?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares
Peak 4.00, Offpeak 2.00
(I have no idea what the Oyster fare would be via Euston. The above will
be avoiding Euston where you cannot avoid touching out and back in - but
not necessarily avoiding Z1 - changing at Harrow&W to the Bakerloo line
will get you via Z1 without the touch at Euston)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...res=Show+fares
Peak 6.00, Offpeak 3.50

GNER website gives
Single Watford Junction - London Euston 7.80
Watford Junction - Clapham Junction
7.10 Direct on SN (Some 6.00 offpeak)
10.90 WJ - Eus - Victoria - CJ
10.90 WJ - Eus - Vauxhall - CJ

Incidentally, Harrow&W to CJ oyster gives cash fare as 3.20 at any time
(Doesn't specify a route but presumably means not Z1?)

GNER gives this fare on all non via Euston trains. 6.30 via EUS.

GNER gives WJ-H&W as 3.20 making it 6.20/9.50 if you travel on a train
that stops at H&W.

Oyster gives WJ-H&W as 2.50/1.10 but its more than just needing a
train that stops, you've got to touch out (and back in on a different
card if you're intending to continue on oyster)

Tim.

p.s. GNER is NXEC now but I still go to www.gner.co.uk because I can
never remember the 40 character long domain they use.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:
I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season
ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was
at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them.

Kevin

On Apr 20, 8:28*pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

~~~~~~~~~~

Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season
ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was
at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them.

Kevin


You won't like what I'm going to say - but just because a ticket is
issued with assurances that it is valid doesn't actually mean it is
legit under the rules. The ticket you had issued at Vauxhall was from
London Terminals to Watford Jn - but just because Vauxhall is itself a
London Terminal that doesn't mean that the ticket is valid from
Vauxhall to Watford Jn. The ticket could just as well have been issued
at say Fenchurch Street - after all, theoretically speaking all ticket
offices are capable of issuing tickets from anywhere to anywhere else
on the National Rail network.

Certainly all longer distance tickets from Vauxhall are issued from
"London Terminals". I think it used to be the case that all tickets
from Vauxhall were issued from "London Terminals", but since zonal
fares for all rail journeys wholly within London were introduced in
2007 I believe this may have changed, reason being that Vauxhall is in
zone 2, so issuing a ticket as if it were also valid from/to Waterloo
in zone 1 would mean it would be more expensive than it should be - so
I think fares for journeys within London are now issued from Vauxhall.

Anyway, that's a sideline issue - as I said tickets for longer
distance journeys are all issued from "London Terminals". The fact
that this is how things are done might well have led to ticket office
staff at Vauxhall thinking that this means a London Terminals to
Watford Jn ticket that spews out of their machine is inevitably valid
from Vauxhall.

By the sounds of other posts on this thread it would appear there are
perhaps several systems - e.g. RJIS - that show it as a valid route. I
contend that they are likely to be wrong, and that a Watford Jn to
London Terminals ticket is actually only valid between Watford Jn and
Euston.

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Unless that is I'm very wrong and Watford Jn to Vauxhall via the WLL
really is valid. I just can't see that making much sense though.

"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.

Peter

On Apr 21, 10:46*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.


Absolutely.
But (a) if they enquire about the possibility of a cheaper route via
the WLL and are told that it is possible and indeed legit then they
might choose to go that way if they're price concious and are willing
to put up with the longer journey, or even just dislike the tube.
And (b) whilst it's obviously be against the predominant flow, there
undoubtedly will have been commuters who have started their journey at
Vauxhall with Watford Jn as the destination (though I quite agree that
in all likelihood they too will have gone via the Victoria line and
Euston).

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...


"Mizter T" wrote

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Of course, anyone actually travelling from Watford Junction or north of
there to Vauxhall would be much more likely to go via Euston and the
Victoria Line, and should be ticketed accordingly.

Peter
Why would they obviously go via Euston? Amitted I did this a few years ago.
Train started at Watford so you get the choice of a seat as opposed to
standing crammed on a Euston train. Air conditioned versed an overheated
321. Avoid the crush on the Victoria line and the stifling heat. A no
brainer really.

Kevin

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Apr 20, 8:28 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Apr 19, 9:34 pm, "Zen83237" wrote:

I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to
Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

~~~~~~~~~~

Believe me, I used to do it every day. And just to confirm it a season
ticket bought at Vauxhall to Watford was endorsed London terminals. It was
at Watford that I used to get trouble convincing them.

Kevin


You won't like what I'm going to say - but just because a ticket is
issued with assurances that it is valid doesn't actually mean it is
legit under the rules. The ticket you had issued at Vauxhall was from
London Terminals to Watford Jn - but just because Vauxhall is itself a
London Terminal that doesn't mean that the ticket is valid from
Vauxhall to Watford Jn. The ticket could just as well have been issued
at say Fenchurch Street - after all, theoretically speaking all ticket
offices are capable of issuing tickets from anywhere to anywhere else
on the National Rail network.

Certainly all longer distance tickets from Vauxhall are issued from
"London Terminals". I think it used to be the case that all tickets
from Vauxhall were issued from "London Terminals", but since zonal
fares for all rail journeys wholly within London were introduced in
2007 I believe this may have changed, reason being that Vauxhall is in
zone 2, so issuing a ticket as if it were also valid from/to Waterloo
in zone 1 would mean it would be more expensive than it should be - so
I think fares for journeys within London are now issued from Vauxhall.

Anyway, that's a sideline issue - as I said tickets for longer
distance journeys are all issued from "London Terminals". The fact
that this is how things are done might well have led to ticket office
staff at Vauxhall thinking that this means a London Terminals to
Watford Jn ticket that spews out of their machine is inevitably valid
from Vauxhall.

By the sounds of other posts on this thread it would appear there are
perhaps several systems - e.g. RJIS - that show it as a valid route. I
contend that they are likely to be wrong, and that a Watford Jn to
London Terminals ticket is actually only valid between Watford Jn and
Euston.

However, given the apparent state of distinct confusion on the matter,
replete with NRES proclaiming that it is valid to use it to Vauxhall,
along with ticket office staff at Vauxhall and seemingly also
Bletchley saying likewise, then if a passenger uses such a ticket for
a journey via the WLL then I can't see how they can possibly be
accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Unless that is I'm very wrong and Watford Jn to Vauxhall via the WLL
really is valid. I just can't see that making much sense though.

Well what can I say. With the exception of occasionally the staff at Watford
wanting to sell me a travel card the ticket I was sold was Watford Junc to
London terminals if I bought it at Watford or London terminals to Watford if
I bought it at Vauxhall. Not once, not twice, but every week for a year.
Whether it was right or not I don't care. That is what they sold me and it
worked at the gates at Vauxhall.

Kevin