Class 378s into service this week?
 

[original thread on uk.railway]
[crossposted to uk.transport.london]

On Jul 6, 6:46*pm, "Pat O'Neill" wrote:

"contrex" wrote:
A little bird whispered in my ear that 378 005 & 007 are to start
revenue service this week. It did not say which route(s).

On a very few occasions I have see the 378 units on the slow lines at
Purley.

Well they ain't going to be in revenue service down that way, that's
for sure!

Posts in another forum seems to suggest they'll be used on the North
London Line and/or West London Line routes (some NLL services run
through onto the WLL and v.v.).

If it is this week it's just that little bit too late for the hot
weather!

(Incidentally I note that the current May-September London Overground
timetable booklet features a 378 on the front cover picture I think
for the first time, alongside the roof of Stratford station, the
Hackney Empire and the Camden Market.)

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 6, 7:10*pm, Mizter T wrote:

[original thread on uk.railway]
[crossposted to uk.transport.london]

On Jul 6, 6:46*pm, "Pat O'Neill" wrote:

"contrex" wrote:
A little bird whispered in my ear that 378 005 & 007 are to start
revenue service this week. It did not say which route(s).

On a very few occasions I have see the 378 units on the slow lines at
Purley.

Well they ain't going to be in revenue service down that way, that's
for sure!

Posts in another forum seems to suggest they'll be used on the North
London Line and/or West London Line routes (some NLL services run
through onto the WLL and v.v.).

An insider on the aforementioned forum (no need for me to be
secretive, it's the District Dave forum!) says that diagrams have been
issued showing the trains (two of them I think) being in service from
Monday 13 July - so it might happen then, or a bit later next week.
Looks to be sometime pretty soon at least.

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 7, 7:59*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On the NLL / WLL? * I thought it was always planned that Euston -
Watford would see the 378s first?

There could be an argument that says something like if Euston Watford
is to get squadron 378 service first because it is more important
route, then it is the very place you do *not* do your initial in
service running.


--
Nick

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 7, 8:56*pm, D7666 wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:59*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On the NLL / WLL? * I thought it was always planned that Euston -
Watford would see the 378s first?

There could be an argument that says something like if Euston Watford
is to get squadron 378 service first because it is more important
route, then it is the very place you do *not* do your initial in
service running.

If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.

I too was under the impression that the new units would start off on
the Watford to Euston DC Line run, as a more gentle way of bringing
them into service. However there seems to be some suggestion of there
being an issue with the CCTV system of some sort - it's unclear
whether that problem is specifically related to running on DC Line, or
just a more general issue of some potential bugs with the units' CCTV
systems. Point being, the NLL and WLL are staying as guard and driver
operations at least for the moment, so any CCTV issues aren't show
stoppers. (My guess is that the push to go DOO on the NLL and WLL is a
fight that's being saved for another day.)

The latest gen is that the runs will all be in the NLL, apart from
three NLL & WLL turns - the 07:37 Stratford to Clapham Junction, the
08.53 CJ back to Stratford, and then in the evening the 18:39
Stratford to CJ. I am merely acting as a conduit for information from
elsewhere (see above), so of anyone is thinking of making a special
trip... well, to be blunt, I wouldn't make a special trip if I was you!

Class 378s into service this week?
 

Mizter T wrote:

If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.


Why do you think that?

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 7, 10:39*pm, Tony Polson wrote:
If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.

Why do you think that? *

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Because it's duplicated long-distance by LM, short distance by the
Bakerloo, runs at a lower frequency than the NLL, and trains are
rarely as full as NLL trains.

Otherwise, yes, definitely more important.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 7, 9:42*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 7, 8:56*pm, D7666 wrote:

On Jul 7, 7:59*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On the NLL / WLL? * I thought it was always planned that Euston -
Watford would see the 378s first?

There could be an argument that says something like if Euston Watford
is to get squadron 378 service first because it is more important
route, then it is the very place you do *not* do your initial in
service running.

If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.

I too was under the impression that the new units would start off on
the Watford to Euston DC Line run, as a more gentle way of bringing
them into service. However there seems to be some suggestion of there
being an issue with the CCTV system of some sort - it's unclear
whether that problem is specifically related to running on DC Line, or
just a more general issue of some potential bugs with the units' CCTV
systems. Point being, the NLL and WLL are staying as guard and driver
operations at least for the moment, so any CCTV issues aren't show
stoppers. (My guess is that the push to go DOO on the NLL and WLL is a
fight that's being saved for another day.)

The latest gen is that the runs will all be in the NLL, apart from
three NLL & WLL turns - the 07:37 Stratford to Clapham Junction, the
08.53 CJ back to Stratford, and then in the evening the 18:39
Stratford to CJ. I am merely acting as a conduit for information from
elsewhere (see above), so of anyone is thinking of making a special
trip... well, to be blunt, I wouldn't make a special trip if I was you!

My understanding was that the 378s would initially be introduced onto
the Euston - Watford service to replace the 508s which should have
gone off-lease. Of course, any 313s released from the NLL/WLL services
can do that equally well. Another advantage of introduction on the DC
lines would be that the units would only need to run on one electric
system, but as mileage accumulation appears to mainly be happening on
AC power, this is probably irrelevant. Rescue of any failures might
well be easier on NLL/WLL routes as there'll be no 1972 stock in the
way!!

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 7, 10:39*pm, Tony Polson wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.

Why do you think that? *

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Just look at the overcrowding (even with the enhanced peak service) on
the NLL. Highbury - Willesden Junction is overcrowded nearly all the
time, hence the extension of the WLL services from Willesden Junction
- Stratford during the peaks, giving a 10 minute interval. The WLL
similarly gets an increase in peak services from every 30 mins to
every 20 mins. The DC line service stays at every 20 mins throughout
the day and is normally only busy Euston - Willesden and then only
during the peaks or when LM is having problems. The DC service may be
more visible, but it certainly in less need of the extra standing room
that the 378s will provide, especially with most of the busy bit
shadowed by the Bakerloo.

Class 378s into service this week?
 

Andy wrote:
On Jul 7, 10:39*pm, Tony Polson wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

If there is a hierarchy of LO routes, then the NLL would I think be a
"more important route" than Watford to Euston.

Why do you think that? *

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Just look at the overcrowding (even with the enhanced peak service) on
the NLL. Highbury - Willesden Junction is overcrowded nearly all the
time, hence the extension of the WLL services from Willesden Junction
- Stratford during the peaks, giving a 10 minute interval. The WLL
similarly gets an increase in peak services from every 30 mins to
every 20 mins. The DC line service stays at every 20 mins throughout
the day and is normally only busy Euston - Willesden and then only
during the peaks or when LM is having problems. The DC service may be
more visible, but it certainly in less need of the extra standing room
that the 378s will provide, especially with most of the busy bit
shadowed by the Bakerloo.


Now I understand. Thanks, Andy.

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 8, 7:59*pm, Tony Polson wrote:

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.


Just look at the overcrowding

I did not say the Euston route was the most important to have 378s, I
said it was the most important route, and its importance means it
should NOT have them early.

I would argue that the priority for NLL to have 378s to relieve over
crowding is not the same as it being the most important route to avoid
having a 378 on, but it is more important to get it tright.

If the Euston Watford service were not there, the Bakerloo would be
desperately over loaded beyond capacity; the NLL is simply crowded.

A brand new out of the packet 378 failing during warranty / mileage
accumulation / crews-ramping-up-routine-familiarisation would screw
the Bakerloo completely if it happened in the wrong place i.e. between
Queens and Stonebridge Parks say just before the pm peak and stranding
X number of Bakerloo sets in depot. Bear in mind that 377/5s are
capably failing mosdt days every week of bringing TL core to a halt
for up to half an hour at a time for the most trivial issues, then
378s might be the same.

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important - not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.

--
Nick

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 8, 8:24*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Jul 8, 7:59*pm, Tony Polson wrote:

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Just look at the overcrowding

I did not say the Euston route was the most important to have 378s, I
said it was the most important route, and its importance means it
should NOT have them early.

I would argue that the priority for NLL to have 378s to relieve over
crowding is not the same as it being the most important route to avoid
having a 378 on, but it is more important to get it tright.

If the Euston Watford service were not there, the Bakerloo would be
desperately over loaded beyond capacity; the NLL is simply crowded.

A brand new out of the packet 378 failing during warranty / mileage
accumulation / crews-ramping-up-routine-familiarisation would screw
the Bakerloo completely if it happened in the wrong place i.e. between
Queens and Stonebridge Parks say just before the pm peak and stranding
X number of Bakerloo sets in depot. Bear in mind that 377/5s are
capably failing mosdt days every week of bringing TL core to a halt
for up to half an hour at a time for the most trivial issues, then
378s might be the same.

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important *- not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.

--
Nick

OOps, apologies Tony, I cut too many quotes, looks like I'm quoting
all as if you said it, of course thats not right. I'm sure you know
what I meant to leave as quoted quotes.

--
Nick

Class 378s into service this week?
 

D7666 wrote:

On Jul 8, 8:24*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Jul 8, 7:59*pm, Tony Polson wrote:

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Just look at the overcrowding

I did not say the Euston route was the most important to have 378s, I
said it was the most important route, and its importance means it
should NOT have them early.

I would argue that the priority for NLL to have 378s to relieve over
crowding is not the same as it being the most important route to avoid
having a 378 on, but it is more important to get it tright.

If the Euston Watford service were not there, the Bakerloo would be
desperately over loaded beyond capacity; the NLL is simply crowded.

A brand new out of the packet 378 failing during warranty / mileage
accumulation / crews-ramping-up-routine-familiarisation would screw
the Bakerloo completely if it happened in the wrong place i.e. between
Queens and Stonebridge Parks say just before the pm peak and stranding
X number of Bakerloo sets in depot. Bear in mind that 377/5s are
capably failing mosdt days every week of bringing TL core to a halt
for up to half an hour at a time for the most trivial issues, then
378s might be the same.

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important *- not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.

--
Nick

OOps, apologies Tony, I cut too many quotes, looks like I'm quoting
all as if you said it, of course thats not right. I'm sure you know
what I meant to leave as quoted quotes.


No need to apologise, Nick, it was quite clear what you meant. It is an
interesting discussion; I am considering working in London and it would
mean a house move, so I am looking at a few alternative locations that
would keep commuting to a minimum.

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 8, 8:24*pm, D7666 wrote:
On Jul 8, 7:59*pm, Tony Polson wrote:

I ask because, like Nick, I would have thought that the Watford-Euston
DC route was more important than the North London Line.

Just look at the overcrowding

I did not say the Euston route was the most important to have 378s, I
said it was the most important route, and its importance means it
should NOT have them early.

I would argue that the priority for NLL to have 378s to relieve over
crowding is not the same as it being the most important route to avoid
having a 378 on, but it is more important to get it tright.

If the Euston Watford service were not there, the Bakerloo would be
desperately over loaded beyond capacity; the NLL is simply crowded.


I really don't think that's the case. The NLL is the route that you
can't get on during the peaks. The 313s on the DC lines have a
capacity of 202 seated, the refurbished 1972 Mk II stock has a
capacity of 276 seated.During the peaks, the Bakerloo line runs every
6-7 mins to Stonebridge Park (SP) with 1 out of 3 trains running to
Harrow & Wealdstone (interval 9-11 mins). The basic pattern is LO
train, Bakerloo - SP, Bakerloo - H&W, Bakerloo - SP and repeat.

So in the busy part of the line, the Bakerloo has 828 seats every 20
mins compared to LO's 202 and the 313s provide 20% of the seated
capacity and with less standing room as well having fewer doorways for
people to stand in . I've never had any problem with overcrowding on
the Bakerloo during the peak, some carriages get crowded due to people
not moving down the platform, but there has always been space
somewhere. Even during the various LM disruptions the Bakerloo
capacity line was OK in the mornings.

A brand new out of the packet 378 failing during warranty / mileage
accumulation / crews-ramping-up-routine-familiarisation would screw
the Bakerloo completely if it happened in the wrong place i.e. between
Queens and Stonebridge Parks say just before the pm peak and stranding
X number of Bakerloo sets in depot. Bear in mind that 377/5s are
capably failing mosdt days every week of bringing TL core to a halt
for up to half an hour at a time for the most trivial issues, then
378s might be the same.

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important *- not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.


I do agree with the reasoning for not having the units introduced on
the DC lines first, especially as I made a similar point in my reply
to Mister T's post. ;)

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 8, 9:01*pm, Andy wrote:

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important *- not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.

I do agree with the reasoning for not having the units introduced on
the DC lines first, especially as I made a similar point in my reply
to Mister T's post. ;)- Hide quoted text -


Errr yes you did, sorry, I should have said I was restating it.

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my very first comment as this
is what was driving it.

--
Nick

Class 378s into service this week?
 

On Jul 8, 8:24*pm, D7666 wrote:
If the Euston Watford service were not there, the Bakerloo would be
desperately over loaded beyond capacity; the NLL is simply crowded.

? - the BL is surely one of the emptiest Tube lines, and the 3tph on
the DC lines don't add all that much...

A brand new out of the packet 378 failing during warranty / mileage
accumulation / crews-ramping-up-routine-familiarisation would screw
the Bakerloo completely if it happened in the wrong place i.e. between
Queens and Stonebridge Parks say just before the pm peak and stranding
X number of Bakerloo sets in depot.

So there's a few hundred metres where it'd matter (ie 'stops Bakerloo
trains being brought out of depot to run the QP-Central London
service). Whereas a failure on the NLL (pretty much any of the NLL,
given the 3rd track is out of commission) would create havoc.

Bear in mind that 377/5s are
capably failing mosdt days every week of bringing TL core to a halt
for up to half an hour at a time for the most trivial issues, then
378s might be the same.

Cite? As someone who uses TL every day, that doesn't seem to be
anything even vaguely close to what's happening.

Thats why I think the Euston DC route is more important *- not to have
378s (I never implied that) but because it is a more important route
full stop.

Except for not being.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org