Tottenham Hale Bus Station
Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes
123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
Paul Corfield wrote:
I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. I'm still waiting for a response to two out of three e-mails I sent to LBL Customer Services back in May. I've had a response to the last of the mails I sent, but not either of the first two. :-( The subject being the atrocious operation of First's route W6 (Edmonton Green Bus Station - Southgate Station), where I had a 45 minute wait for a bus on May Day Bank Holiday Monday (when buses are supposed to be every 15 minutes), a 30 minute wait on Wednesday of the same week (when they're supposed to be every 10) and an effective 40 minute wait at Southgate the following week (when they're every 20 minutes) due to the bus doing a short working before it had even left Southgate, despite being on time! Cheers, Barry |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Thanks If you do get a reply, please post it here. This problem is going a major pain, especially as over the next three weekends there is no service on the Victoria line, and the replacement buses will not be able to stop there. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 8, 7:44*am, Barry Salter wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote: I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. I'm still waiting for a response to two out of three e-mails I sent to LBL Customer Services back in May. I've had a response to the last of the mails I sent, but not either of the first two. :-( The subject being the atrocious operation of First's route W6 (Edmonton Green Bus Station - Southgate Station), where I had a 45 minute wait for a bus on May Day Bank Holiday Monday (when buses are supposed to be every 15 minutes), a 30 minute wait on Wednesday of the same week (when they're supposed to be every 10) and an effective 40 minute wait at Southgate the following week (when they're every 20 minutes) due to the bus doing a short working before it had even left Southgate, despite being on time! While I appreciate it's a TfL tendered service and therefore an approach to TfL is the recommended route I would be tempted to send something in via the First London website as well. When First ran the 123 a few years back I would regularly send First my praise as well as my complaints and the response time was generally pretty quick. -- Paul C via Google |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:44:23 +0100
Barry Salter wrote: The subject being the atrocious operation of First's route W6 (Edmonton Green Bus Station - Southgate Station), where I had a 45 minute wait for a bus on May Day Bank Holiday Monday (when buses are supposed to be every 15 minutes), a 30 minute wait on Wednesday of the same week (when they're supposed to be every 10) and an effective 40 minute wait at Southgate the following week (when they're every 20 minutes) due to the bus doing a short working before it had even left Southgate, despite being on time! And ecomentalists wonder why people drive cars. B2003 |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Don't Arriva run the 123 at the moment? Their website makes it clear that for any comments about London Bus services you should contact Tfl direct. They only want to be contacted directly for enquiries about lost property. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 8, 11:53*am, Paul wrote:
On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Don't Arriva run the 123 at the moment? Their website makes it clear that for any comments about London Bus services you should contact Tfl direct. They only want to be contacted directly for enquiries about lost property Yes Arriva do run the 123 *now* - don't I know it! Interestingly my last complaint - about driver behaviour - went to TfL but the reply came from Arriva which was something of a surprise. My earlier response referred to a few years ago when First ran things. The complaints process has changed since then but I was simply remarking that I found First to be helpful and my suggested E Mail would be *in addition* to the complaint Barry has sent to TfL. The issue about the bus station is completely a TfL decision and the operators would have no comment to make. -- Paul C via Google |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 8 July, 13:05, plcd1 wrote:
On Jul 8, 11:53*am, Paul wrote: On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Don't Arriva run the 123 at the moment? Their website makes it clear that for any comments about London Bus services you should contact Tfl direct. They only want to be contacted directly for enquiries about lost property Yes Arriva do run the 123 *now* - don't I know it! *Interestingly my last complaint - about driver behaviour - went to TfL but the reply came from Arriva which was something of a surprise. My earlier response referred to a few years ago when First ran things. The complaints process has changed since then but I was simply remarking that I found First to be helpful and my suggested E Mail would be *in addition* to the complaint Barry has sent to TfL. The issue about the bus station is completely a TfL decision and the operators would have no comment to make. -- Paul C via Google- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thinking about it, the only possible "safety concern" that I can think of is that someone from "Health And Safety" has deemed it "unsafe" for buses on the through routes (123, 230, W4 and N73) to pass buses on the terminating routes (41 and 192) that are on stand. Granted there is limited clearance, but I am not aware of any serious accidents or fatalities. Even if there had been an accident, the problem could be solved by making sure that buses on stand only park in designated areas. How typical of Tfl to not give a flying f**k about passengers, and find a solution which causes them as much inconvenience as possible. I would not like to be member of LU staff there on Saturday (when there is no Victoria line running) having to explain why the replacement buses toward Walthamstow are having to sail past the bus station without stopping. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 8 July, 13:25, Paul wrote:
On 8 July, 13:05, plcd1 wrote: On Jul 8, 11:53*am, Paul wrote: On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Don't Arriva run the 123 at the moment? Their website makes it clear that for any comments about London Bus services you should contact Tfl direct. They only want to be contacted directly for enquiries about lost property Yes Arriva do run the 123 *now* - don't I know it! *Interestingly my last complaint - about driver behaviour - went to TfL but the reply came from Arriva which was something of a surprise. My earlier response referred to a few years ago when First ran things. The complaints process has changed since then but I was simply remarking that I found First to be helpful and my suggested E Mail would be *in addition* to the complaint Barry has sent to TfL. The issue about the bus station is completely a TfL decision and the operators would have no comment to make. -- Paul C via Google- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thinking about it, the only possible "safety concern" that I can think of is that someone from "Health And Safety" has deemed it "unsafe" for buses on the through routes (123, 230, W4 and N73) to pass buses on the terminating routes (41 and 192) that are on stand. Granted there is limited clearance, but I am not aware of any serious accidents or fatalities. Even if there had been an accident, the problem could be solved by making sure that buses on stand only park in designated areas. How typical of Tfl to not give a flying f**k about passengers, and find a solution which causes them as much inconvenience as possible. I would not like to be member of LU staff there on Saturday (when there is no Victoria line running) having to explain why the replacement buses toward Walthamstow are having to sail past the bus station without stopping.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have now received the following reply from London Buses Thank you for contacting me regarding Tottenham Hale Bus Station. I am sorry you are unhappy with the current stopping arrangements. As stated on our website, routes 123, 230, W4 and N73 will no longer be serving the station. Concerns were recently raised that, in order to ensure the safety of alighting passengers, bus numbers should be reduced in the station. Now that these numbers have been reduced, routes 41 and 192, which terminate at Tottenham Hale, continue to use the station. We appreciate that this is not an ideal situation. Discussions are taking place to see if an improved solution can be found, and we will be monitoring the situation closely. I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Thank you again for raising your concerns with us. If I can be of any help in the future, please feel free to contact me. As I said previously, how typical of Tfl to think of a solution which causes the maximum inconvenience to passengers - how many accidents have there actually been, and have any of these been serious? |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 8 July, 15:20, Paul wrote:
On 8 July, 13:25, Paul wrote: On 8 July, 13:05, plcd1 wrote: On Jul 8, 11:53*am, Paul wrote: On 7 July, 20:30, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 04:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Paul wrote: Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are which mean that routes 123, 230, N73 and W4, plus the Victoria Line replacement buses are not able to call at the bus station in an eastbound direction? *If the bus station is unsafe, how is it that routes 41 and 192 are still able to call there? Is this situation likely to last for a long time? I ask as my e-mail to London Buses on the subject has, unsurprisingly, not been answered. No but I have raised a query internally today that covers the points you mention and some others besides. I hate to say it but in my experience you do not get quick responses to E Mails to TfL Customer Services. It may take a couple of weeks - my last query took a very long time due to computer system problems for which TfL apologised. -- Paul C Don't Arriva run the 123 at the moment? Their website makes it clear that for any comments about London Bus services you should contact Tfl direct. They only want to be contacted directly for enquiries about lost property Yes Arriva do run the 123 *now* - don't I know it! *Interestingly my last complaint - about driver behaviour - went to TfL but the reply came from Arriva which was something of a surprise. My earlier response referred to a few years ago when First ran things.. The complaints process has changed since then but I was simply remarking that I found First to be helpful and my suggested E Mail would be *in addition* to the complaint Barry has sent to TfL. The issue about the bus station is completely a TfL decision and the operators would have no comment to make. -- Paul C via Google- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thinking about it, the only possible "safety concern" that I can think of is that someone from "Health And Safety" has deemed it "unsafe" for buses on the through routes (123, 230, W4 and N73) to pass buses on the terminating routes (41 and 192) that are on stand. Granted there is limited clearance, but I am not aware of any serious accidents or fatalities. Even if there had been an accident, the problem could be solved by making sure that buses on stand only park in designated areas. How typical of Tfl to not give a flying f**k about passengers, and find a solution which causes them as much inconvenience as possible. I would not like to be member of LU staff there on Saturday (when there is no Victoria line running) having to explain why the replacement buses toward Walthamstow are having to sail past the bus station without stopping.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have now received the following reply from London Buses Thank you for contacting me regarding Tottenham Hale Bus Station. *I am sorry you are unhappy with the current stopping arrangements. As stated on our website, routes 123, 230, W4 and N73 will no longer be serving the station. *Concerns were recently raised that, in order to ensure the safety of alighting passengers, bus numbers should be reduced in the station. *Now that these numbers have been reduced, routes 41 and 192, which terminate at Tottenham Hale, continue to use the station. We appreciate that this is not an ideal situation. *Discussions are taking place to see if an improved solution can be found, and we will be monitoring the situation closely. *I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Thank you again for raising your concerns with us. *If I can be of any help in the future, please feel free to contact me. As I said previously, how typical of Tfl to think of a solution which causes the maximum inconvenience to passengers - how many accidents have there actually been, and have any of these been serious?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It's funny, last time I went that way on a 123, I was surprised to find it going into the bus station, it not having done so during the many years when I used it a lot, although I remember the 41 always being there (is it the least-changed route in London?). I am stuggling to understand what the problem is though. Surely the whole point of bus stations is to have buses in them. Or are they referring to railway passengers having to pass too many buses? |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 8, 3:20*pm, Paul wrote: On 8 July, 13:25, Paul wrote: Thinking about it, the only possible "safety concern" that I can think of is that someone from "Health And Safety" has deemed it "unsafe" for buses on the through routes (123, 230, W4 and N73) to pass buses on the terminating routes (41 and 192) that are on stand. Granted there is limited clearance, but I am not aware of any serious accidents or fatalities. Even if there had been an accident, the problem could be solved by making sure that buses on stand only park in designated areas. How typical of Tfl to not give a flying f**k about passengers, and find a solution which causes them as much inconvenience as possible. I would not like to be member of LU staff there on Saturday (when there is no Victoria line running) having to explain why the replacement buses toward Walthamstow are having to sail past the bus station without stopping. I have now received the following reply from London Buses Thank you for contacting me regarding Tottenham Hale Bus Station. *I am sorry you are unhappy with the current stopping arrangements. As stated on our website, routes 123, 230, W4 and N73 will no longer be serving the station. *Concerns were recently raised that, in order to ensure the safety of alighting passengers, bus numbers should be reduced in the station. *Now that these numbers have been reduced, routes 41 and 192, which terminate at Tottenham Hale, continue to use the station. We appreciate that this is not an ideal situation. *Discussions are taking place to see if an improved solution can be found, and we will be monitoring the situation closely. *I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Thank you again for raising your concerns with us. *If I can be of any help in the future, please feel free to contact me. As I said previously, how typical of Tfl to think of a solution which causes the maximum inconvenience to passengers - how many accidents have there actually been, and have any of these been serious? If you want to take this further you could perhaps put in an FOI request for documents relating to this decision. That might highlight the incidents that have apparently occurred. You could also try asking the staff at the station, the bus drivers (or controllers if there are any about), or even the shopkeeper in the station building or the bods in the minicab office whether they know about any particular incidents of late. I quite agree that on the face of it, it seems a trifle absurd. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
"Paul" wrote in message ... I have now received the following reply from London Buses Thank you for contacting me regarding Tottenham Hale Bus Station. I am sorry you are unhappy with the current stopping arrangements. As stated on our website, routes 123, 230, W4 and N73 will no longer be serving the station. Concerns were recently raised that, in order to ensure the safety of alighting passengers, bus numbers should be reduced in the station. Now that these numbers have been reduced, routes 41 and 192, which terminate at Tottenham Hale, continue to use the station. We appreciate that this is not an ideal situation. Discussions are taking place to see if an improved solution can be found, and we will be monitoring the situation closely. I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Thank you again for raising your concerns with us. If I can be of any help in the future, please feel free to contact me. As I said previously, how typical of Tfl to think of a solution which causes the maximum inconvenience to passengers - how many accidents have there actually been, and have any of these been serious? It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Peter Smyth |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 8 July, 22:30, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... I have now received the following reply from London Buses Thank you for contacting me regarding Tottenham Hale Bus Station. *I am sorry you are unhappy with the current stopping arrangements. As stated on our website, routes 123, 230, W4 and N73 will no longer be serving the station. *Concerns were recently raised that, in order to ensure the safety of alighting passengers, bus numbers should be reduced in the station. *Now that these numbers have been reduced, routes 41 and 192, which terminate at Tottenham Hale, continue to use the station. We appreciate that this is not an ideal situation. *Discussions are taking place to see if an improved solution can be found, and we will be monitoring the situation closely. *I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Thank you again for raising your concerns with us. *If I can be of any help in the future, please feel free to contact me. As I said previously, how typical of Tfl to think of a solution which causes the maximum inconvenience to passengers - how many accidents have there actually been, and have any of these been serious? It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Peter Smyth- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have written to Tfl suggesting that (a) buses on all routes can only set down or pick up if they are adjacent to the kerb (b) buses on stand at the terminus should only park in specially designated areas, so that there is enough room for buses on the through routes to pass safely (c) A suitable speed restriction is imposed in the bus station This should reduce any risk to an acceptable level, although I do realise that a busy times there can sometimes be a queue of buses waiting to pass through the bus station. Considering the large number of people who board and alight from the through routes at the bus station, it seems that many people are being inconvenienced for a relatively small risk. I don't think that Tfl have really thought this one through properly. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
Peter Smyth wrote:
It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. Cheers, Barry |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 9 July, 15:40, Barry Salter wrote:
Peter Smyth wrote: It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. Cheers, Barry The N73 is a normal double decker, and not a bendy bus. Of all the routes that use the bus station, it will have the least trouble getting round, especially at 3am when the N41 is the only other bus still running. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
Barry Salter wrote in news:7bmdrbF247r5vU2
@mid.individual.net: Peter Smyth wrote: It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 10 July, 03:52, James Farrar wrote:
Barry Salter wrote in news:7bmdrbF247r5vU2 @mid.individual.net: Peter Smyth wrote: It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. Not the 453? |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 10, 7:31*am, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 03:52, James Farrar wrote: Barry Salter wrote: Peter Smyth wrote: It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. Not the 453? The N453 is indeed a bendy bus. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 10 July, 10:21, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 10, 7:31*am, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 03:52, James Farrar wrote: Barry Salter wrote: Peter Smyth wrote: It seems odd that the N73 can't stop there. Is Tottenham Hale Bus Station really that busy in the middle of the night? Isn't the N73 an artic? I can't see one of those getting around the loop all that easily. londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. Not the 453? The N453 is indeed a bendy bus.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I realised after that his 153 must be a typo for 453, which I think is just 24-hour rather than a N. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 10, 7:16*pm, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 10:21, Mizter T wrote: On Jul 10, 7:31*am, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 03:52, James Farrar wrote: [snip] londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. Not the 453? The N453 is indeed a bendy bus. I realised after that his 153 must be a typo for 453, which I think is just 24-hour rather than a N. It is indeed, you are correct, and James did a typo - the 24-hour 453 is featured here on the Westminster night bus map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro...uses-11497.pdf I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in teh results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 10 July, 19:37, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 10, 7:16*pm, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 10:21, Mizter T wrote: On Jul 10, 7:31*am, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 03:52, James Farrar wrote: [snip] londonbusroutes.net says that the only night bus routes that run bendies are the 12, 25, N29, 149 and 153. Not the 453? The N453 is indeed a bendy bus. I realised after that his 153 must be a typo for 453, which I think is just 24-hour rather than a N. It is indeed, you are correct, and James did a typo - the 24-hour 453 is featured here on the Westminster night bus map:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaro...westminsternig... I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in teh results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453:http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. I ought to know, but I can't remember. Other changes did happen fairly recently though, around the defunct N36 being replaced by a N136 plus the 36 going 24-hour. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On 10 July, 20:58, wrote:
In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in teh results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. Surely yellow plates came in some time before the bendys to soften people up for their introduction. I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
MIG wrote:
I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. You're correct (apart from the 453 running with deckers for the first month or so at first until the artics were delivered). So the yellow plates would have been on the stops for all of about a week before the routes were over to pay before boarding. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
In article
, (MIG) wrote: On 10 July, 20:58, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in teh results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. Surely yellow plates came in some time before the bendys to soften people up for their introduction. I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. You might be right. I'm not sure even though I was cycling amongst them at the time. It doesn't detract from my point that off-bus ticketing came in before the end of the Routemasters. They couldn't be scrapped without off bus ticketing being in place and well established first. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 10, 10:26*pm, John Swallow wrote: MIG wrote: I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. *They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. You're correct (apart from the 453 running with deckers for the first month or so at first until the artics were delivered). So the yellow plates would have been on the stops for all of about a week before the routes were over to pay before boarding. Yes, I sort of remember that remember that - a great fleet of double- deckers was laid on instead. I'm guessing they operated as per normal, with the driver checking the tickets. I've a vague recollection of double-deckers stood in for bendy buses on some routes after the artics had been withdrawn after a number of them infamously caught fire - however I've just found this BBC News story from 2004 which states they were withdrawn altogether on few bendy bus routes pending modifications: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3563279.stm ---quote--- There are no services on the 436, 453 and 521. Reduced services are operating on the number 18, 293, 507, and RV1 have been replaced by ordinary buses. Extra services are running on routes 36, 53 and 185. ---quote--- So it seems my recollection is wrong (unless there was a separate incidence of this happening, but on reflection I don't think there was). Interesting to see that at least some of the 18, 507 and RV1 (a non-bendy Citaro) fleets were apparently considered ok enough to be out on the street - maybe they'd had the crucial modifications done. (And the 293 - that's not an artic - is it a Citaro then?) I'm half-curious to know whether the 36 and 53 were extended to cover the extra stretches normally covered by the missing bendies (that's New Cross to Lewisham for the 436, and Whitehall/Horse Guards to Marylebone for the 453). Maybe other routes were left to take the strain (though no other route from Whitehall or Trafalgar Square exactly replicates the 453). |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 10, 10:07*pm, MIG wrote: On 10 July, 20:58, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in teh results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. Surely yellow plates came in some time before the bendys to soften people up for their introduction. I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. *They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. Yes, the 453 was indeed a 'new' route (as John Swallow conforms downthread), as was the 436 - they''ve been bendy bus routes from the outset (though see John's caveat re the 453). These are two routes that I really don't think will cope well with being 'de-bendified'. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
On Jul 10, 10:45 pm, wrote: In article , (MIG) wrote: On 10 July, 20:58, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in the results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. Surely yellow plates came in some time before the bendys to soften people up for their introduction. I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. You might be right. I'm not sure even though I was cycling amongst them at the time. It doesn't detract from my point that off-bus ticketing came in before the end of the Routemasters. They couldn't be scrapped without off bus ticketing being in place and well established first. Hmmm... that's not really right. Let me run through the choronology... * First off I recall seeing an installation of several roadside ticket machines at the new Waterloo 'bus plaza' - next to the big roundabout (with the IMAX in the middle) - quite some time ago - 2001 maybe, or 2002, I'm really not too sure (dunno if this was pre-or-post bendification of the 521). I *think* this was the first time I'd come across these machines - it was certainly the first time I'd used one, and I bought a one-day bus pass that was viewed with a somewhat quizzical suspicion by the drivers I presented it to that day (I think it was only a couple of buses). * The first bendy bus routes in London were the Red Arrow routes 507 and 521, introduced on 5 June 2002 - source: http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/507.htm Obviously as these were going to be 'buy before you board' routes, like all bendy bus routes to come, then roadside ticket machines had to be installed at all the bus stops served by these two routes. I presume the yellow plates (on the bus totem signs) with the instruction to 'buy tickets before boarding' came in at this point. It should however be noted that the 507 and 521 buses are only used by a very small sub-set of London's bus passengers - notably, commuters heading to and from London termini stations (the market they're essentially aimed at). * The next bendy bus route was the 436, introduced on 8 February 2003 - source: http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...fdea99d9aeb9ae * And a week after that, the 453 was introduced on the 15 February 2003 - source: http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/453.htm In the case of both of these routes, again, roadside ticket machines needed to be installed at all the bus stops they served. I'm not quite sure if any new bendy bus routes were introduced over the next few months, bit the next event I want to highlight is... * The central London 'pay before you board' area was introduced on 23 August 2003 - this was a big change and meant that passengers had to buy their tickets before boarding any bus in the area, whether bendy or not. This led to yellow plates indication the requirement to 'buy before you board' being introduced across the whole of the affected area. My source for the date is this webpage held in the Internet Archive - see the URL for confirmation of the year: http://web.archive.org/web/200308061...y-before.shtml So whilst the apparatus of the roadside ticketing machines *had* to be in place before the introduction of these routes, to say it was "well established" is I think wrong. For the great majority of passengers on the 436 and 453 routes, it was an entirely new concept (as evidenced by the number of people trying to pay the driver in the early days). Whilst the Red Arrow (507 and 521) buses had 'buy before you board' first, most pax on the 436 and 453 routes won't have been using Red Arrow buses and hence won't have been exposed to the 'buy before you board' scenario beforehand. Even after the August 2003 introduction of the central London 'pay before you board' area, any notion that this would instantly have educated all Londoners about the concept of 'buy before you board' wouldn't be right - many Londoners use buses in central London infrequently, and the idea that all Londoners are well versed in the ways of central London ain't true either. In essence, off bus ticketing got established as it went along, when bendy bus routes were introduced and when the central London 'pay before you board' area came into being. It simply wasn't well established before this, not by any means. One quick last thing - you seem to imply that all the Routemaster routes were replaced by bendy buses. This certainly wasn't universally the case - off the top of my head, the 14, 19 and 159 were converted straight from Routemasters to OPO double-deckers. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
Mizter T wrote:
I've a vague recollection of double-deckers stood in for bendy buses on some routes after the artics had been withdrawn after a number of them infamously caught fire ... Yes, that's right. For example, Stagecoach used its own Tridents (I think from Hull if memory serves) on the 453, so in full white-based livery (and the world didn't end because they used non-red buses, but that's another story entirely :) ). (And the 293 - that's not an artic - is it a Citaro then?) The 293 at the time was operated by Epsom Coaches with conventional Citaro single deckers. It isn't anymore. I'm half-curious to know whether the 36 and 53 were extended to cover the extra stretches normally covered by the missing bendies (that's New Cross to Lewisham for the 436, and Whitehall/Horse Guards to Marylebone for the 453). Maybe other routes were left to take the strain (though no other route from Whitehall or Trafalgar Square exactly replicates the 453). There were no service changes during the bendy-off-the-road saga. Most routes eventually had something, even if was ridiculous things like recently-withdrawn single door Darts trying to run limited Red Arrow services. |
Tottenham Hale Bus Station
In article
, (Mizter T) wrote: On Jul 10, 10:45 pm, wrote: In article , (MIG) wrote: On 10 July, 20:58, wrote: In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I couldn't remember if it was a 24 hour route or not, so instead of checking a bus spider map or the TfL journey planner I did a Google image search for "n453 london bus", one of the first thumbnails in the results led me to this page - which has an out of date photo of a bus stop at Baker Street which displays 'plates' for both 453 and N453: http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/...uses.htm#Stops It's obviously taken after the introduction of bendy buses, as they both appear on yellow 'plates' with the advice/warning "Buy tickets before boarding" (and it's just outside the central London 'pay before you board' area too). So my half-remembered recollection of there being a distinct N453 service in the recent past wasn't so far wide of the mark! I'm not sure when the separate N453 was dropped and the daytime 453 went 24-hours though. Surely yellow plates came in some time before the bendys to soften people up for their introduction. I don't think there was such a thing as a 453 before bendys though. Or a 436. They made overlapping sections with the 53 and 36 which were shortened, and my impression was that it happened with bendification. You might be right. I'm not sure even though I was cycling amongst them at the time. It doesn't detract from my point that off-bus ticketing came in before the end of the Routemasters. They couldn't be scrapped without off bus ticketing being in place and well established first. Hmmm... that's not really right. Let me run through the choronology... * First off I recall seeing an installation of several roadside ticket machines at the new Waterloo 'bus plaza' - next to the big roundabout (with the IMAX in the middle) - quite some time ago - 2001 maybe, or 2002, I'm really not too sure (dunno if this was pre-or-post bendification of the 521). I *think* this was the first time I'd come across these machines - it was certainly the first time I'd used one, and I bought a one-day bus pass that was viewed with a somewhat quizzical suspicion by the drivers I presented it to that day (I think it was only a couple of buses). * The first bendy bus routes in London were the Red Arrow routes 507 and 521, introduced on 5 June 2002 - source: http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/507.htm Obviously as these were going to be 'buy before you board' routes, like all bendy bus routes to come, then roadside ticket machines had to be installed at all the bus stops served by these two routes. I presume the yellow plates (on the bus totem signs) with the instruction to 'buy tickets before boarding' came in at this point. It should however be noted that the 507 and 521 buses are only used by a very small sub-set of London's bus passengers - notably, commuters heading to and from London termini stations (the market they're essentially aimed at). * The next bendy bus route was the 436, introduced on 8 February 2003 - source: http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...fdea99d9aeb9ae * And a week after that, the 453 was introduced on the 15 February 2003 - source: http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/453.htm In the case of both of these routes, again, roadside ticket machines needed to be installed at all the bus stops they served. I'm not quite sure if any new bendy bus routes were introduced over the next few months, bit the next event I want to highlight is... * The central London 'pay before you board' area was introduced on 23 August 2003 - this was a big change and meant that passengers had to buy their tickets before boarding any bus in the area, whether bendy or not. This led to yellow plates indication the requirement to 'buy before you board' being introduced across the whole of the affected area. My source for the date is this webpage held in the Internet Archive - see the URL for confirmation of the year: http://web.archive.org/web/200308061...uk/buses/about -pay-before.shtml So whilst the apparatus of the roadside ticketing machines *had* to be in place before the introduction of these routes, to say it was "well established" is I think wrong. For the great majority of passengers on the 436 and 453 routes, it was an entirely new concept (as evidenced by the number of people trying to pay the driver in the early days). Whilst the Red Arrow (507 and 521) buses had 'buy before you board' first, most pax on the 436 and 453 routes won't have been using Red Arrow buses and hence won't have been exposed to the 'buy before you board' scenario beforehand. Even after the August 2003 introduction of the central London 'pay before you board' area, any notion that this would instantly have educated all Londoners about the concept of 'buy before you board' wouldn't be right - many Londoners use buses in central London infrequently, and the idea that all Londoners are well versed in the ways of central London ain't true either. In essence, off bus ticketing got established as it went along, when bendy bus routes were introduced and when the central London 'pay before you board' area came into being. It simply wasn't well established before this, not by any means. One quick last thing - you seem to imply that all the Routemaster routes were replaced by bendy buses. This certainly wasn't universally the case - off the top of my head, the 14, 19 and 159 were converted straight from Routemasters to OPO double-deckers. I think we're getting this the wrong way round. Off bus ticketing had to be firmly established before the Routemasters with their conductors could be done away with. They weren't all replaced by bendies of course. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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