Can some of you more knowledgeable people please explain in what
circumstance(s) would it be of benefit to add a travelcard to an Oyster
PAYG?

I always though that Oyster was valid throughout the London Underground
network and in all zones and that you are charged the minimum rate for
whichever journey you made. Is this not the case or am I missing something
somewhere?

Regards,

Clint

On 10 July, 00:06, "AJM" wrote:
Can some of you more knowledgeable people please explain in what
circumstance(s) would it be of benefit to add a travelcard to an Oyster
PAYG?

I always though that Oyster was valid throughout the London Underground
network and in all zones and that you are charged the minimum rate for
whichever journey you made. Is this not the case or am I missing something
somewhere?

Regards,

Clint

A travelcard is valid on National Rail. Pay As You Go (which I think
you mean by Oyster) is not valid on most of National Rail yet,
although there are some routes where it is.

If you want to travel on National Rail on a given day, it's probably
cheaper to have a travelcard than to use a combination of PAYG and
National Rail tickets, but you'd need to work it out for each case.

A travelcard season ticket can be added to an Oyster Card. If it's
valid for whole of the journey you are making, none of your PAYG
credit will be deducted.

On Jul 10, 12:17*am, MIG wrote:
Can some of you more knowledgeable people please explain in what
circumstance(s) would it be of benefit to add a travelcard to an Oyster
PAYG?

I always though that Oyster was valid throughout the London Underground
network and in all zones and that you are charged the minimum rate for
whichever journey you made. Is this not the case or am I missing something
somewhere?

A travelcard is valid on National Rail. *Pay As You Go (which I think
you mean by Oyster) is not valid on most of National Rail yet,
although there are some routes where it is.

If you want to travel on National Rail on a given day, it's probably
cheaper to have a travelcard than to use a combination of PAYG and
National Rail tickets, but you'd need to work it out for each case.

A travelcard season ticket can be added to an Oyster Card. *If it's
valid for whole of the journey you are making, none of your PAYG
credit will be deducted.

Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Jul 10, 10:50*am, John B wrote:

On Jul 10, 12:17*am, MIG wrote:

[snip]

A travelcard is valid on National Rail. *Pay As You Go (which I think
you mean by Oyster) is not valid on most of National Rail yet,
although there are some routes where it is.

If you want to travel on National Rail on a given day, it's probably
cheaper to have a travelcard than to use a combination of PAYG and
National Rail tickets, but you'd need to work it out for each case.

A travelcard season ticket can be added to an Oyster Card. *If it's
valid for whole of the journey you are making, none of your PAYG
credit will be deducted.

Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

Worth emphasising that John is referring to an *annual* Travelcard, as
opposed to a weekly or a monthly, in which case the situation might be
different an Oyster PAYG *may* be cheaper.

Also, the statement isn't necessarily true for journeys that don't
involve zone 1 anyway! Example - a two zone commute (that's a
combination of any two zones outside zone 1). The Oyster PAYG fare is
£1.10 (and is the same at peak and off-peak PAYG times) - so a weekly
commute (there and back five out of seven days) is £11, and even if
one was to do this 52 weeks of the year without a break, it would come
to £572. Meanwhile a two-zone annual Travelcard (for any two zone
combo outside z1) costs £664.

Of course the Travelcard would bring with it the benefit of allowing
unlimited travel in those two zones on LU and NR (and DLR), and
unlimited bus travel anywhere in London, and would also mean one would
likely pay less for LU journeys that started in one of those two zones
and ended elsewhere (courtesy of the automatic ticket extension
facility granted by having a combo of Travelcard and PAYG on one card)
- and the annual Travelcard would provide Gold Card benefits too - so
it'd certainly be worthwhile considering it.

Point being, there's no absolute rule that says an annual Travelcard
will be cheaper than merely using PAYG.

On Jul 10, 12:06*am, "AJM" wrote:
Can some of you more knowledgeable people please explain in what
circumstance(s) would it be of benefit to add a travelcard to an Oyster
PAYG?

I always though that Oyster was valid throughout the London Underground
network and in all zones and that you are charged the minimum rate for
whichever journey you made. Is this not the case or am I missing something
somewhere?

MIG has provided his own answer which I think basically covers it, but
let me just add my own anyway.

If you make a nigh-on daily commute using London Underground (LU)
only, then a Travelcard is effectively a season ticket (as there are
no LU-only season tickets). Note however that it *may* nonetheless
still be cheaper to use Oyster PAYG - the calculation depends on what
journey you are making, how often you make it, whether you'd like
effectively 'free' leisure journeys and bus travel, and what length of
season ticket you were prepared to buy (weekly/monthly/annual or pro-
rata longer than a month) amongst other considerations.

A season Travelcard on Oyster is the same as a printed season
Travelcard [1], the advantage being that you can travel outside the
zones covered by your Travelcard on routes that accept Oyster PAYG
(i.e. the whole LU network, plus a few National Rail (NR) routes) - in
such a scenario the cost of the extension fare will automatically be
deducted from the Oyster PAYG credit held on the Oyster card.

Which brings me to the next important point - any Oyster card can hold
PAYG credit and also be loaded with a Travelcard - there's no
distinction between an Oyster PAYG card and an Oyster card that holds
a Travelcard, any Oyster card can do both. (Note that monthly or
longer season Travelcards can only be loaded on a registered Oyster
card.)

Also note that Day Travelcards *cannot* be loaded onto Oyster - they
only come as printed (paper) tickets. As MIG said, if you want to use
National Rail services on routes which don't accept Oyster PAYG -
which is the majority of them - then as a basic rule of thumb you'll
be best off buying a Day Travelcard at the beginning of your day's
travels as opposed to using Oyster PAYG and buying paper tickets for
your NR journeys.


If you want to describe the kind of journeys you regularly make by
public transport in London, then we could certainly suggest what would
be the best ticketing route for you to go down. If all you do is make
occasional trips by Underground and/or London bus, then Oyster PAYG is
likely the best thing for you. Unless that is you're travelling into
London from a station somewhere in (very broadly speaking) south-east
England, in which case you can buy a Day Travelcard from your origin
station that includes return travel into London as well as a
Travelcard for unlimited use on trains, Tubes and buses across London
that day.


(And I haven't even mentioned season Bus Passes on Oyster!
Essentially, their the same as Travelcards except they only provide
for unlimited bus travel, obviously! Well... unlimited bus and tram
travel actually!)

-----
[1] MIG's battles with Virgin Trains aside... but may I suggest we
'don't go there' right now and end up confusing the OP - he's come
here for some clarity!

On Jul 10, 11:18*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 10, 10:50*am, John B wrote:





On Jul 10, 12:17*am, MIG wrote:

[snip]

A travelcard is valid on National Rail. *Pay As You Go (which I think
you mean by Oyster) is not valid on most of National Rail yet,
although there are some routes where it is.

If you want to travel on National Rail on a given day, it's probably
cheaper to have a travelcard than to use a combination of PAYG and
National Rail tickets, but you'd need to work it out for each case.

A travelcard season ticket can be added to an Oyster Card. *If it's
valid for whole of the journey you are making, none of your PAYG
credit will be deducted.

Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

Worth emphasising that John is referring to an *annual* Travelcard, as
opposed to a weekly or a monthly, in which case the situation might be
different an Oyster PAYG *may* be cheaper.

Also, the statement isn't necessarily true for journeys that don't
involve zone 1 anyway! Example - a two zone commute (that's a
combination of any two zones outside zone 1). The Oyster PAYG fare is
£1.10 (and is the same at peak and off-peak PAYG times) - so a weekly
commute (there and back five out of seven days) is £11, and even if
one was to do this 52 weeks of the year without a break, it would come
to £572. Meanwhile a two-zone annual Travelcard (for any two zone
combo outside z1) costs £664.

Of course the Travelcard would bring with it the benefit of allowing
unlimited travel in those two zones on LU and NR (and DLR), and
unlimited bus travel anywhere in London, and would also mean one would
likely pay less for LU journeys that started in one of those two zones
and ended elsewhere (courtesy of the automatic ticket extension
facility granted by having a combo of Travelcard and PAYG on one card)
- and the annual Travelcard would provide Gold Card benefits too - so
it'd certainly be worthwhile considering it.

Point being, there's no absolute rule that says an annual Travelcard
will be cheaper than merely using PAYG.

Oops. Forgot about those lucky[*] types who don't have to go into/
through Z1 for their commute!
[*] FSVO lucky. I'm still slightly traumatised by the six months I
spent attempting to commute z2-z2 using the Silverlink in pre-LO days.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:06:51 -0700 (PDT), John B wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:18*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 10, 10:50*am, John B wrote:
Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

Worth emphasising that John is referring to an *annual* Travelcard, as
opposed to a weekly or a monthly, in which case the situation might be
different an Oyster PAYG *may* be cheaper.

Also, the statement isn't necessarily true for journeys that don't
involve zone 1 anyway! Example - a two zone commute (that's a
combination of any two zones outside zone 1). The Oyster PAYG fare is
£1.10 (and is the same at peak and off-peak PAYG times) - so a weekly
commute (there and back five out of seven days) is £11, and even if
one was to do this 52 weeks of the year without a break, it would come
to £572. Meanwhile a two-zone annual Travelcard (for any two zone
combo outside z1) costs £664.

Point being, there's no absolute rule that says an annual Travelcard
will be cheaper than merely using PAYG.

Oops. Forgot about those lucky[*] types who don't have to go into/
through Z1 for their commute!

Even with zone 1 if all you do is go to work and back by tube an
annual pass can cost more than PAYG. For example zone 1-4 is 2.80
each way on Oyster PAYG which at 5 times a week for 52 weeks is
1456, less than the annual travelcard at 1472.

Since you need to take off 5 and a bit weeks holiday there is some
room for leisure travel and an annual travelcard still costing more.

David

On Jul 10, 1:39*pm, David Walters wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:06:51 -0700 (PDT), John B wrote:

On Jul 10, 11:18*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:50*am, John B wrote:
Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

Worth emphasising that John is referring to an *annual* Travelcard, as
opposed to a weekly or a monthly, in which case the situation might be
different an Oyster PAYG *may* be cheaper.

Also, the statement isn't necessarily true for journeys that don't
involve zone 1 anyway! Example - a two zone commute (that's a
combination of any two zones outside zone 1). The Oyster PAYG fare is
£1.10 (and is the same at peak and off-peak PAYG times) - so a weekly
commute (there and back five out of seven days) is £11, and even if
one was to do this 52 weeks of the year without a break, it would come
to £572. Meanwhile a two-zone annual Travelcard (for any two zone
combo outside z1) costs £664.
Point being, there's no absolute rule that says an annual Travelcard
will be cheaper than merely using PAYG.

Oops. Forgot about those lucky[*] types who don't have to go into/
through Z1 for their commute!

Even with zone 1 if all you do is go to work and back by tube an
annual pass can cost more than PAYG. For example zone 1-4 is 2.80
each way on Oyster PAYG which at 5 times a week for 52 weeks is
1456, less than the annual travelcard at 1472.

Since you need to take off 5 and a bit weeks holiday there is some
room for leisure travel and an annual travelcard still costing more.

Thanks David, I think I did know (or once knew) that were some such
Underground commutes involving zone 1 that could nonetheless be
cheaper with Oyster PAYG than with the equivalent annual Travelcard,
having spent some time with the relevant fares tables and a calculator
a while back.

So essentially, there's no rule of thumb to go on here - one needs to
look at the particular circumstances involved and make an educated
decision (/guesstimate) as to what's best for any one individual.
There are of course benefits to a season Travelcard - unlimited use
for leisure purposes, 'free' bus travel across London, and with an
annual there's the Gold Card benefits - so it's really up to a
commuter to sit down and work out what's best for them.

FWIW, I have come across a significant number of people who have
switched to Oyster PAYG and reckon they've made savings - how
rigorously they've assessed this is of course another question. In the
case of some friends, a like for like comparison isn't possible - the
switch to Oyster PAYG has encouraged them to ponder their travel
options a bit more instead of just relying on the Tube, e.g. a few of
them now regularly walk to and from town (pleasant routes being
available to and from work and other places), they make greater use of
buses instead of the Tube, and being specific a couple of them
recently-ish bought bicycles for leisure time use, one of whom now
cycle commutes instead of using public transport.

In article ,
David Walters wrote:
Even with zone 1 if all you do is go to work and back by tube an
annual pass can cost more than PAYG. For example zone 1-4 is 2.80
each way on Oyster PAYG which at 5 times a week for 52 weeks is
1456, less than the annual travelcard at 1472.

Since you need to take off 5 and a bit weeks holiday there is some
room for leisure travel and an annual travelcard still costing more.

Factor in the interest, too: either that cash will be earning you
interest or not having to spend it up-front will mean you don't
have to pay so much interest on the plastic.

--
:wq

On Jul 10, 1:06*pm, John B wrote:

On Jul 10, 11:18*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:50*am, John B wrote:

[snip]

Also, if you make two peak journeys a day even just on London
Underground, an annual Travelcard is cheaper per day than Oyster PAYG
would be.

Worth emphasising that John is referring to an *annual* Travelcard, as
opposed to a weekly or a monthly, in which case the situation might be
different an Oyster PAYG *may* be cheaper.

Also, the statement isn't necessarily true for journeys that don't
involve zone 1 anyway! Example - a two zone commute (that's a
combination of any two zones outside zone 1). The Oyster PAYG fare is
£1.10 (and is the same at peak and off-peak PAYG times) - so a weekly
commute (there and back five out of seven days) is £11, and even if
one was to do this 52 weeks of the year without a break, it would come
to £572. Meanwhile a two-zone annual Travelcard (for any two zone
combo outside z1) costs £664.

Of course the Travelcard would bring with it the benefit of allowing
unlimited travel in those two zones on LU and NR (and DLR), and
unlimited bus travel anywhere in London, and would also mean one would
likely pay less for LU journeys that started in one of those two zones
and ended elsewhere (courtesy of the automatic ticket extension
facility granted by having a combo of Travelcard and PAYG on one card)
- and the annual Travelcard would provide Gold Card benefits too - so
it'd certainly be worthwhile considering it.

Point being, there's no absolute rule that says an annual Travelcard
will be cheaper than merely using PAYG.

Oops. Forgot about those lucky[*] types who don't have to go into/
through Z1 for their commute!

[*] FSVO lucky. I'm still slightly traumatised by the six months I
spent attempting to commute z2-z2 using the Silverlink in pre-LO days.

As they say on the box, 'Other non-zone 1 commutes are also available'
i.e. apart from London Overground of course! And many of these are
perfectly ok, especially - and unsurprisingly - the contra-peak flow
commutes (and there are of course a sizeable number of people who do
these too).

Also, there are a significant number of opportunities for piling out
of a train or Tube in zone 2 territory before making an onward journey
by bus into zone 1 - of course this entirely depends upon the location
trying to be reached (and I suppose to some extent the price
conciousness of the commuter too - but not necessarily).

An example would be someone who works somewhere on Vauxhall Bridge
Road (that's the road north of Vauxhall Bridge that leads up to
Victoria station). Say they live in Barnes - they can then catch the
train from Barnes (z3) to Vauxhall (z1/2 border - so for this purpose
z2), then catch one of the many frequent buses (2, 36, 436, 185)
that's heading over Vauxhall Bridge up to work.

Incidentally my limited-ish experience of these buses in the morning
at Vauxhall is that a good number of people pile out at Vauxhall to
get on the Victoria line - and some presumably onto SWT for journeys
heading out of town - which means there's space for people to get on,
and a sizeable number of people seem to do just that (many
transferring from other buses, but I'd think a good number must come
off SWT to do this as well - no, I've no stat to back this up, merely
my limited observation that some of them look like they've come from
SWT-land - sterotypes-R-us!).

The same situation applies to greater and lesser extents on the
fringes of zone 1 and 2 elsewhere - in some cases those who would
perhaps do well to exploit it are indeed perhaps more likely to be
price-concious commuters - but this isn't necessarily so, e.g. leave
the train at Battersea Park or Queenstown Road Battersea for buses
(137 or 452) to Sloane Square or Knighsbridge, or perhaps leave the
train or Tube at Elephant & Castle for buses to Holborn.