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London Heritage Routes
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch. The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to south and one that actually crosses the Thames. An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453 running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate though. Has anyone any thoughts on this? |
London Heritage Routes
"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch. The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to south and one that actually crosses the Thames. On the assumption 'heritage route' resourcing remains static, I would scrap the 9H (with its random and useless western terminus), and put the vehicles onto the 15H to extend it beyond Trafalgar Square. Marble Arch would be nice, but Oxford Circus would be more realistic with a 10 vehicle run out I suspect. No doubt stand space would be problematic. Such a route would, however, be of more use to regular commuters/shoppers than the current 15H. An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453 running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate though. Has anyone any thoughts on this? A nice idea which won't happen. Chris |
London Heritage Routes
On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism. Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is worthwhile. (And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment, but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is nothing new...!) |
London Heritage Routes
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London Heritage Routes
Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced That would involve an interest in the detail. He's not that interested in the detail. He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no. He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation. I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door that's left open during the day. This allows them to reduce the crewing cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics. The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out a few months later Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement comes out on time. My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than Routemasters of any variety come May 2012. Tom |
London Heritage Routes
On Jul 12, 11:49*pm, Tom Barry wrote: Mizter T wrote: On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote: "West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced That would involve an interest in the detail. *He's not that interested in the detail. *He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no. He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation. I hadn't picked up on the KPMG review until fairly recently when Paul C provided a head's up on it. It is a bit worrying... I'm hoping that all they'll recommend doing is tinkering around the edges (because they have to recommend something), rather than wrecking the whole thing. I hope that those doing the review, and those making decisions subsequently, also take note of this March 2006 report from the Assembly's Transport Committee entitled "Value added? The Transport Committee’s assessment of whether the bus contracts issued by London Buses represent value for money." It's available here as a PDF: http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/re...alue-added.pdf Essentially it answers yes. But what's notable about it in particular is that it provides a potted history of the attempts over the last couple of decades or so in organising the service along different lines (such as net cost contracts), none of which were particularly successful/ some of which were arguably something of a disaster. The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up. Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story that doesn't need to be ruined. I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all.. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be that similar to the old Routemasters. It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door that's left open during the day. *This allows them to reduce the crewing cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics. The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out a few months later *Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement comes out on time. My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than Routemasters of any variety come May 2012. Interesting prediction. Probably accurate too. FWIW, I think ditching the bendy bus is a stupid decision, but ultimately if that's the sacrificial lamb that has to be slaughtered in order for the rest of the network to survive and flourish then regretfully I say so be it. However, of course things aren't as simple as that, as Boris has said that current bendy bus contracts will be left to run all the way to the end (I wonder if things would have taken a different course if TfL had still been relatively flush with money?). If he won a second term then they'd presumably all go. Though the other factor is of course what the reaction will be to the withdrawal of bendies on certain routes, and replacement with slower double deckers. "The people" might speak out (as they were encouraged to do with regards to the CC Western Extension for example), though said people are perhaps not those Boris is terribly interested in listening to. |
London Heritage Routes
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London Heritage Routes
West Yorkshire Bus wrote:
Has anyone any thoughts on this? One of the treats of London was to ride upstairs at the front over Tower Bridge. I think all the regular buses over Tower Bridge are now single decker, which is a shame. I'd like the Routemasters to go over Tower Bridge, but I can't see that happening. |
London Heritage Routes
"Mizter T" wrote: (re Heritage RMs) There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be immense. To the average Londoner, the Routemaster has gone. Where would this 'immense furore' come from? Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism. I remember similar doom-mongering about tourism when the mainstream Routemaster routes were taken off. Who else remembers Matthew 'I'm moving away' Wharmby's website? Since then, despite the recession, the number of visitors to London has increased considerably. I accept the Routemaster is part of 'brand London', but how many intending visitors would boycott London if the 9H and 15H were taken off? My own guess is a two digit number per annum, no more. The key determinant of the success of UK tourism is the exchange rate - boring but true. Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is worthwhile. In many cases, it is cheaper to repair older buildings than knock them down and start again. And some of these buildings will be listed, so you can't do much to them anyway. But it comes down to a debate about where you spend a budget which is being squeezed. Difficult choices will need to be made. I think we (all of us - but especially the public sector) have forgotten what it's like to have to make cuts. (And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment, but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is nothing new...!) Well there we can agree on something. I too am a bendy bus fan, and I think taking them off the Red Arrow routes, where they are well-suited, is an expensive political stunt. Ironically, I think they are disappearing just as Londoners learn to love them. The reasons we didn't like the bendies we i) They were new, and anything new in this country is treated with wariness, if not hostility. Especially if it's also foreign. ii) They were blamed for seeing off the beloved Routemaster, although most bendy routes had not been RM operated latterly. iii) The Evening Standard told us they were rubbish, and were responsible for the mass murder of cyclists. Three irrational reasons for disliking the bendy bus. But we are a rational nation, and now quite like the idea of a bus which swallows huge crowds, has easy access and a very good turn of speed. You wait for the moaning and groaning when the Dennis Darts arrive on the 521. Chris |
London Heritage Routes
On 12 July, 22:37, "Chris Read" wrote:
"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote: With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in London since they were introduced I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their cameras. They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the service, even if that were desirable. In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis. Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch. The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to south and one that actually crosses the Thames. On the assumption 'heritage route' resourcing remains static, I would scrap the 9H (with its random and useless western terminus), and put the vehicles onto the 15H to extend it beyond Trafalgar Square. Marble Arch would be nice, but Oxford Circus would be more realistic with a 10 vehicle run out I suspect. No doubt stand space would be problematic. Such a route would, however, be of more use to regular commuters/shoppers than the current 15H. An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453 running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate though. Has anyone any thoughts on this? A nice idea which won't happen. Chris I'm sure some extra Routemasters could be sourced if they needed to be, many of the main bus operators seem to have about 10 each in their fleet and there are probably loads that were bought for preservation or private hire which hasn't worked out The low profile routes may not help loadings, hence why it would be better if they served the likes of Oxford Circus, Parliament Square etc I wonder if the advert space on the Routemasters should carry adverts saying that Travelcards and Oyster cards are valid. Many tourists may think they are seperate paid service like the open top routes, or alternatively maybe the Routemaster routes could be sold off to become part of say the Arriva Original Tour operation Andrew |
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