Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Now here are the prices for tickets from Ashford to London St. Pancras
with the surcharge.

Anytime Single (SDS) £26.60
Anytime Day Return (SDR) £48.70
(HS Upgrade Anytime Single (HUA) £4.40)
(HS Upgrade Anytime Return (HUB) £8.10)

However, if you get a ticket from Ashford to Kentish Town that is any
route permitted, and therefore allows you to travel on the fast
Southeastern services, the prices are as follows:

ASHFORD INTL 5004 - KENTISH TOWN 1553
(Derived from ASHFORD INTL 5004 - W HAMPSTEAD STNS 0265)
rte Any Permitted

SET
FDS S 33.90
FDR R 67.80
SDS S 22.60
SDR R 42.50
SVR 4A R 28.60
CDR C4 R 23.10

Looks like you can save yourself £4 on a single,, or £6.20 on an
anytime return... or am I missing something?

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

On Jul 17, 7:57*pm, Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Now here are the prices for tickets from Ashford to London St. Pancras
with the surcharge.

Anytime Single (SDS) £26.60
Anytime Day Return (SDR) £48.70
(HS Upgrade Anytime Single (HUA) £4.40)
(HS Upgrade Anytime Return (HUB) £8.10)

However, if you get a ticket from Ashford to Kentish Town that is any
route permitted, and therefore allows you to travel on the fast
Southeastern services, the prices are as follows:

ASHFORD INTL 5004 - KENTISH TOWN 1553
(Derived from ASHFORD INTL 5004 - W HAMPSTEAD STNS 0265)
rte Any Permitted

SET
FDS * * *S * * *33.90
FDR * * *R * * *67.80
SDS * * *S * * *22.60
SDR * * *R * * *42.50
SVR * * 4A * * *R * * * 28.60
CDR * * C4 * * *R * * * 23.10

Looks like you can save yourself £4 on a single,, or £6.20 on an
anytime return... or am I missing something?

I think this information is out of date. None of the public websites
(nationalrail, SEtrains etc.) will show the cheaper fare as valid on
the HS1 preview trains, only on the slow route. The fares to/from
Kentish Town via HS1 are shown as £27.00 SDS. It would be worth
checking if the fare you quote above is the old any permitted which
would now be 'not HS1'

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1 supplements.

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer distance
ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby to Ashford
International), and passengers holding appropriate First Class tickets.

snip

[Kentish Town - Ashford vice London - Ashford]

Looks like you can save yourself £4 on a single,, or £6.20 on an
anytime return... or am I missing something?

You'd fall foul of the fares rule when checking for valid routeing
points for the journey.

Kentish Town has London Group and West Hampstead Group as potential
routeing points. Ashford International is a routeing point.

Doing a fare check:

Ashford International - Kentish Town Anytime Day Single: £22.60

London Terminals - Ashford International Anytime Day Single: £22.20
route Not HS1, £26.60 route via HS1

So you can only use London Group as the destination routeing point by
avoiding HS1, as the fare via HS1 is more than the fare for the through
journey.

HTH,

Barry

[1] The new name for the FRPP since the May fares round

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to
stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel
on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1 supplements.

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer
distance ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby to
Ashford International), and passengers holding appropriate First Class
tickets.

The point is that Kentish Town - Ashford is routed Any Permitted and
therefore is valid in the same way that Derby - Ashford is valid. Maybe
this is not what SET intended, but until they change the tickets to "not
via HS1" they are valid.

[Kentish Town - Ashford vice London - Ashford]

Looks like you can save yourself £4 on a single,, or £6.20 on an
anytime return... or am I missing something?

You'd fall foul of the fares rule when checking for valid routeing
points for the journey.

Kentish Town has London Group and West Hampstead Group as potential
routeing points. Ashford International is a routeing point.

Doing a fare check:

Ashford International - Kentish Town Anytime Day Single: £22.60

London Terminals - Ashford International Anytime Day Single: £22.20
route Not HS1, £26.60 route via HS1

So you can only use London Group as the destination routeing point by
avoiding HS1, as the fare via HS1 is more than the fare for the
through journey.

What about West Hampstead - Ashford? This is the same price as Kentish
Town and because it is a routeing point there is no requirement to check
any fares.

Peter Smyth

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...


"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to
stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel
on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1
supplements.

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer
distance ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby
to Ashford International), and passengers holding appropriate First
Class tickets.

The point is that Kentish Town - Ashford is routed Any Permitted and
therefore is valid in the same way that Derby - Ashford is valid.
Maybe this is not what SET intended, but until they change the
tickets to "not via HS1" they are valid.

That statement is incorrect

As you say they are valid by any permitted route, but HS1 is NOT a
permitted route for any fare unless it explicitly says via HS1 (or
whatever they actually write on the tickets, as I suspect HS1 means
nothing to the average punter)

The exact wording in The Manual is

Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations.
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On
HS1” (00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview
supplement. All other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000)
are valid for travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer
distance flows (such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed
“Any Permitted” (00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which
a Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.

Peter Smyth

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...


"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...


"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1 supplements.

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer distance
ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby to Ashford
International), and passengers holding appropriate First Class tickets.

The point is that Kentish Town - Ashford is routed Any Permitted and
therefore is valid in the same way that Derby - Ashford is valid. Maybe
this is not what SET intended, but until they change the tickets to "not
via HS1" they are valid.

That statement is incorrect

As you say they are valid by any permitted route, but HS1 is NOT a
permitted route for any fare unless it explicitly says via HS1 (or
whatever they actually write on the tickets, as I suspect HS1 means
nothing to the average punter)

The exact wording in The Manual is

Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations.
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On HS1”
(00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview supplement. All
other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000) are valid for
travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer distance flows
(such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed “Any Permitted”
(00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which a
Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.

well this isn't what was in the original announcement (perhaps someone
updated the manual wrongly?)

tim

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

On Jul 19, 3:48*pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"tim....." wrote in message

...







"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to
stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel
on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1
supplements.

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer
distance ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby
to Ashford International), and passengers holding appropriate First
Class tickets.

The point is that Kentish Town - Ashford is routed Any Permitted and
therefore is valid in the same way that Derby - Ashford is valid.
Maybe this is not what SET intended, but until they change the
tickets to "not via HS1" they are valid.

That statement is incorrect

As you say they are valid by any permitted route, but HS1 is NOT a
permitted route for any fare unless it explicitly says via HS1 (or
whatever they actually write on the tickets, as I suspect HS1 means
nothing to the average punter)

The exact wording in The Manual is

Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations.
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On
*HS1” (00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview
supplement. All other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000)
are valid for travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer
distance flows (such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed
“Any Permitted” (00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which
a Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.


Actually, that is very ambigous regarding Kentish Town as I don't
think you could regard it as a 'longer distance flow' or 'a station
beyond London'

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

On Jul 19, 8:24*pm, Andy wrote:
Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations..
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On
*HS1” (00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview
supplement. All other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000)
are valid for travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer
distance flows (such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed
“Any Permitted” (00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which
a Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.

Actually, that is very ambigous regarding Kentish Town as I don't
think you could regard it as a 'longer distance flow' *or 'a station
beyond London'

Not a 'longer distance flow', but it shouldn't be too hard to
establish that it's a 'station beyond London' - trying to get out of
the barriers on a London Terminals ticket, and keeping the PF notice
you're thereby given, should do the trick.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

On Jul 19, 5:31*pm, "tim....." wrote:
"Peter Smyth" wrote in message

...







"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Peter Smyth" wrote in message
...

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Lucas wrote:
Someone I know who has access to the FRPP website confirmed to me
that:

For domestic tickets, a journey from the Southeastern area to stations
beyond London which would normally be routed via Ashford will allow
travel by "Any Permitted Route", and that would be valid for travel on
the Javelin preview service without a supplement. A local journey
Ashford - London would need the supplement, however.

Said friend obviously hasn't read the information contained in The
Manual[1] correctly then.

There's a list of 100 Southeastern and Southern stations defined as
being high speed catchment stations, with associated HS1 supplements..

The only journeys that *don't* require a supplement are longer distance
ones routed "Any Permitted" (the example given being Derby to Ashford
International), and passengers holding appropriate First Class tickets.

The point is that Kentish Town - Ashford is routed Any Permitted and
therefore is valid in the same way that Derby - Ashford is valid. Maybe
this is not what SET intended, but until they change the tickets to "not
via HS1" they are valid.

That statement is incorrect

As you say they are valid by any permitted route, but HS1 is NOT a
permitted route for any fare unless it explicitly says via HS1 (or
whatever they actually write on the tickets, as I suspect HS1 means
nothing to the average punter)

The exact wording in The Manual is

Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations..
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On HS1”
(00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview supplement. All
other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000) are valid for
travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer distance flows
(such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed “Any Permitted”
(00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which a
Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.

well this isn't what was in the original announcement (perhaps someone
updated the manual wrongly?)

ITYF that official documents like fares manuals count as 'right',
whereas press releases don't.

....although the courts are obliged to interpret such discrepancies in
the customer's favour anyway, so *if you can be bothered to contest it
legally* then you'll be in the clear. Note: this is not advice to do
so, as prolonged court proceedings are An Expensive Pain In The Arse.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Southeastern surcharge loophole?
 

On 20 July, 12:08, John B wrote:
On Jul 19, 8:24*pm, Andy wrote:

Travel between stations beyond London and high speed catchment stations.
For travel between a station listed in Table A [basically any station in
Kent] and a station beyond London, only tickets routed “Not Valid On
*HS1” (00130) will require the passenger to purchase a Preview
supplement. All other routed tickets, including “Any Permitted” (00000)
are valid for travel on high speed services. This will apply to longer
distance flows (such as Ashford International to Derby) which are routed
“Any Permitted” (00000).

So it is clear that as long as the ticket is routed Any Permitted (which
a Ashford-Kentish Town ticket is) then it is valid on HS1.

Actually, that is very ambigous regarding Kentish Town as I don't
think you could regard it as a 'longer distance flow' *or 'a station
beyond London'

Not a 'longer distance flow', but it shouldn't be too hard to
establish that it's a 'station beyond London' - trying to get out of
the barriers on a London Terminals ticket, and keeping the PF notice
you're thereby given, should do the trick.


But the wording isn't beyond 'London Terminals' but beyond London.
You'd be hard pushed to argue that Kentish Town isn't in London.