Bus route numbering
 

Ok , this is a hopeless anoraky question but something I suddenly wondered
last night... How come most bus routes have a simple number (eg 13, 221) but
some have a letter in them , eg W6. Why do some routes have letters too? Its
not like they've used up all the numbers in the universe so do these letters
denote something special (ok , I know what the N in the night bus routes mean ,
I'm talking about daytime routes)?

B2003

Bus route numbering
 

Ok , this is a hopeless anoraky question but something I suddenly
wondered
last night... How come most bus routes have a simple number (eg 13,
221) but
some have a letter in them , eg W6. Why do some routes have letters
too? Its
not like they've used up all the numbers in the universe so do these
letters
denote something special (ok , I know what the N in the night bus
routes mean ,
I'm talking about daytime routes)?

I defer to those who know what they are talking about, but I believe
that the routes with letters are those that were introduced with flat
fares at a time when that wasn't the norm. For example the Wally 8
was a flat fare replacement for the 128. So presumably for most of
the routes it is just a historical thing and as there has been no need
to change the route numbers they have been left well alone.

Bus route numbering
 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:17:03 -0000, "Graham J" wrote:


I defer to those who know what they are talking about, but I believe
that the routes with letters are those that were introduced with flat
fares at a time when that wasn't the norm.

There are several letter-prefixed routes in my area which were
introduced on normal fare routes.

Bus route numbering
 

Bus route numbering
 

"Graham J" wrote in message
...

For example the W8
was a flat fare replacement for the 128.
So presumably for most of the routes it is just
a historical thing and as there has been no need
to change the route numbers they have been left well alone.

Although it is slightly odd that they have been left alone, because routes
with a letter suffix (as opposed to prefix) have been systematically
renumbered. Perhaps the suffix ones were mostly 4 characters long... Maybe
the suffix routes with 3-characters have remained unaltered.

Incidentally, I think that the W10, P13 and several of the U routes in
Uxbridge have had the same fare structure as every other bus in London since
introduction.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus route numbering
 

"John Rowland" typed


"Graham J" wrote in message
...

For example the W8
was a flat fare replacement for the 128.
So presumably for most of the routes it is just
a historical thing and as there has been no need
to change the route numbers they have been left well alone.

Although it is slightly odd that they have been left alone, because routes
with a letter suffix (as opposed to prefix) have been systematically
renumbered. Perhaps the suffix ones were mostly 4 characters long... Maybe
the suffix routes with 3-characters have remained unaltered.

2B is not 2B!
There again they don't have l-o-n-g routes like that anymore. Can't even
get from Golders Green to Barnet in one hop now.

Incidentally, I think that the W10, P13 and several of the U routes in
Uxbridge have had the same fare structure as every other bus in London since
introduction.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Bus route numbering
 

In article , Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)

Really? The H26 which runs Feltham Station - Hatton Cross must really
be lost, then...

The H22 too, come to think of it.

Niklas
--
"IMO, the primary historical significance of Unix is that it marks the time in
computer history where CPUs became so cheap that it was possible to build an
operating system without adult supervision."
-- Russ Holsclaw in a.f.c

Bus route numbering
 

"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
(Boltar)typed

I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I don't know if Wood Green or Walthamstow gave their W to the W* buses
though.
A* buses are airport buses.

And T for associated with Croydon Tramlink I believe (eg T33)

Bus route numbering
 

Bus route numbering
 

Incidentally, I think that the W10, P13 and several of the U routes
in
Uxbridge have had the same fare structure as every other bus in
London since
introduction.

Yes I was going to add to my original response that the W6 that was
mentioned by the OP is one I've only been aware of in recent years and
I wasn't sure if it had any history before it served Edmonton Green.

Although I believe my first response was correct as far as it went it
cannot be the whole story. I suspect that letter prefixed route
numbers were also used for the first 'midibus' routes.

This may trigger an example of a letter prefixed route that was
neither introduced as a flat fare route or as a midibus but it will do
until someone who actually knows the facts can contribute!

Bus route numbering
 

On 12 Nov 2003 01:45:14 -0800, (Boltar) wrote:

Ok , this is a hopeless anoraky question but something I suddenly wondered
last night... How come most bus routes have a simple number (eg 13, 221) but
some have a letter in them , eg W6. Why do some routes have letters too? Its
not like they've used up all the numbers in the universe so do these letters
denote something special (ok , I know what the N in the night bus routes mean ,
I'm talking about daytime routes)?

B2003
Ok, anorak on:


a) Routes numbered in the 600 series are school routes. With the
exception of the 607, which is a limited stop version of the 207.

b) Route numbered in the 800/900 series are Mobility Bus Routes.
Before the introduction of low-floor buses the Mobility Bus Routes
provided a limited bus network accessible to disabled people. The
network is being slowly withdrawn as the mainstream network becomes
accessible.

c) Routes with a prefix (e.g. W7, E3) have two origins:
i) They were originally flat fare routes in the 1970s under
the Bus Re-shaping plan.
ii) They were introduced as part of a network review in the
1980s/1990s
iii) They're specially branded (e.g. PR1/PR2)

d) The 300/400 number space was originally used by routes operated by
the Country Department of London Transport. Recently, the numberspace
has being used as an 'over flow' by TfL.

e) Routes prefixed with 'N' are Night Buses. Historically these
didn't follow day routes. Most now do, but a few don't.

f) Suffixed routes are being withdrawn (e.g. 207A). These are related
to the Bassom system of route numbering.


I think I've got the above right, but I'm sure an expert will be along
shortly....


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus route numbering
 

On 12 Nov 2003 01:45:14 -0800, (Boltar) wrote:

Ok , this is a hopeless anoraky question but something I suddenly wondered
last night... How come most bus routes have a simple number (eg 13, 221) but
some have a letter in them , eg W6. Why do some routes have letters too? Its
not like they've used up all the numbers in the universe so do these letters
denote something special (ok , I know what the N in the night bus routes mean ,
I'm talking about daytime routes)?

The use of letters on bus routes goes back to changes in the late 1960s
when LT introduced the Bus Reshaping Plan that introduced short suburban
routes, Red Arrows and attempted to spread one person operation. Notable
at that time were W routes introduced in Wood Green and Walthamstow -
the W3 being a notable survivor from that time along with the W7 and W8.

When LT dabbled in minibuses in the 70s a number of these were letter
routes like the B1, P4, H1-3, W9. Some of those have grown to the extent
that the buses used today are certainly not "mini".

We then get the 1980s when the tendering regime led to network changes
in places like Walthamstow, Bexleyheath, Harrow. Other areas adopted a
similar strategy using mini and then midibuses - the Hounslow area and
Roundabout (a subsidiary set up to run the routes) in Orpington being
examples.

You therefore got B routes in Bexleyheath, W routes in Walthamstow plus
some fill in routes in the Wood Green area like the W4, W5 and W6.
Harrow got H routes higher than H10 but less than H20 while Hounslow got
H20 up to H37 plus oddities like the H98. Orpington got "R" routes,
Uxbridge got U routes etc. Docklands got "D", Kingston "K", Central area
"C", Ealing "E",

The use of letters seems to have stabilised a bit these days. There
aren't that many gaps in the numbering cycle if you work on 1-400 or so
being London Area routes, things in the 500s being Red Arrows, 600s
being Schools typically and 700 was the old Green Line series and to
some extent still is.

If there are more knowledgeable bus historians reading this then I'm
happy to be corrected.
--
Paul C
Admits to Working for London Underground!

Bus route numbering
 

"Robert Woolley" wrote in message
...
On 12 Nov 2003 01:45:14 -0800, (Boltar) wrote:

Ok , this is a hopeless anoraky question but something I suddenly
wondered
last night... How come most bus routes have a simple number (eg 13, 221)
but
some have a letter in them , eg W6. Why do some routes have letters too?
Its
not like they've used up all the numbers in the universe so do these
letters
denote something special (ok , I know what the N in the night bus routes
mean ,
I'm talking about daytime routes)?

B2003
Ok, anorak on:


a) Routes numbered in the 600 series are school routes. With the
exception of the 607, which is a limited stop version of the 207.

b) Route numbered in the 800/900 series are Mobility Bus Routes.
Before the introduction of low-floor buses the Mobility Bus Routes
provided a limited bus network accessible to disabled people. The
network is being slowly withdrawn as the mainstream network becomes
accessible.

c) Routes with a prefix (e.g. W7, E3) have two origins:
i) They were originally flat fare routes in the 1970s under
the Bus Re-shaping plan.
ii) They were introduced as part of a network review in the
1980s/1990s
iii) They're specially branded (e.g. PR1/PR2)

d) The 300/400 number space was originally used by routes operated by
the Country Department of London Transport. Recently, the numberspace
has being used as an 'over flow' by TfL.

e) Routes prefixed with 'N' are Night Buses. Historically these
didn't follow day routes. Most now do, but a few don't.

f) Suffixed routes are being withdrawn (e.g. 207A). These are related
to the Bassom system of route numbering.


I think I've got the above right, but I'm sure an expert will be along
shortly....

I think 3 will probably come along together :-)

Bus route numbering
 

Paul Corfield writes:

Hounslow got H20 up to H37 plus oddities like the H98.

The H91 follows the 391 route most of the way between Hammersmith and
the Chiswick Roundabout, which has always seemed to me to be more than
just coincidence. The other oddities may have similar similarities,
or maybe Hounslow just ran out of numbers and took 90-99 as well.

Bus route numbering
 

And S for Sutton, we also have R for the Orpington Roundabout routes
and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

Martin



"Henry" wrote in message ...
"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
(Boltar)typed

I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I don't know if Wood Green or Walthamstow gave their W to the W* buses
though.
A* buses are airport buses.

And T for associated with Croydon Tramlink I believe (eg T33)

Bus route numbering
 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:13:00 GMT, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:



I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I don't know if Wood Green or Walthamstow gave their W to the W* buses though.

Yes, they were about the first in the '60s. The W1 - w6 were in the
Wood Green area, the W21 in Walthamstow. At about the same time E1/2/3
were introduced in Ealing.

They were flat-fare routes with very few seats, based on the 500 Red
Arrow model.

I think posters here are right in that initially the letter prefix
routes were the flat-fare routes, but later ones were either new
routes fitting in with an existing scheme (W7, W8); routes that were a
little different for the time (H1, C11, W9 for instance, with
hail-and-ride on parts of the route.) or sometimes just to identify
routes introduced as part of a new, but traditional, scheme, such as
the U routes.

Bus route numbering
 

In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I think there was once a "PB1 (?) in Potters Bar, too?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Bus route numbering
 

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I think there was once a "PB1 (?) in Potters Bar, too?

And "R*" in Richmond.

Bus route numbering
 

Ian Jelf typed


In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I think there was once a "PB1 (?) in Potters Bar, too?

Yebbut Potters Bar isn't in London. It's even on the other side of the
M25. (Just)

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Bus route numbering
 

On 12 Nov 2003 23:29:09 +0000, jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote:

Paul Corfield writes:

Hounslow got H20 up to H37 plus oddities like the H98.

The H91 follows the 391 route most of the way between Hammersmith and
the Chiswick Roundabout, which has always seemed to me to be more than
just coincidence. The other oddities may have similar similarities,
or maybe Hounslow just ran out of numbers and took 90-99 as well.

IIRC the 391 and H91 used to be the 91. They were split and renumbered.
The current 91 used to be the 14A when it was split away from the old 14
which ran Hornsey Rise to Putney. It was chopped in two with the top bit
being converted to one person operation and then later being renumbered,
rerouted and tendered.

IIRC the H98 used to be the 98 long before the 98 was a Routemaster
route in Central London which was the old number 8 before it.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Bus route numbering
 

To add my 2p, in the bus reshaping plan, the network was to change to a
model of 'trunk routes' linking nodal points (ideally at tube, or
rail/tube, interchanges) with local 'feeder routes' to carry traffic to
the nodal point.

Wood Green was the main model (with Turnpike Lane as the Nodal Point),
Walthamstow and Golders Green were others. I still have no idea why the
128 was changed in it's entirety to W8, but made flat-fare (unless it
was to test the concept away from the 'Nodal' model) even though I used
it everyday for school (both as the 128 and the W8).

So the 'Lettered' routes were basically local services.
--
Steve
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCM/B$ d++(-) s+:+ a+ C++ UL++ L+ P+ W++ N+++ K w--- O V
PS+++ PE- t+ 5++ X- R* tv+ b+++ DI++ G e h---- r+++ z++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Bus route numbering
 

jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote in message ...
Paul Corfield writes:

Hounslow got H20 up to H37 plus oddities like the H98.

The H91 follows the 391 route most of the way between Hammersmith and
the Chiswick Roundabout, which has always seemed to me to be more than
just coincidence. The other oddities may have similar similarities,
or maybe Hounslow just ran out of numbers and took 90-99 as well.

The H40 (now replaced by 440 and 272) was a Hounslow route.

I believe the H91 is going to be rerouted soon in the Chiswick area.
One plan was for it to run along the A4 between Hammersmith and Chiswick
Roundabout.


Robin

Bus route numbering
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:32:37 GMT, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:

Ian Jelf typed


In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I think there was once a "PB1 (?) in Potters Bar, too?

Yebbut Potters Bar isn't in London. It's even on the other side of the
M25. (Just)

I believe these prefixess were introduced when Country Buses was still
part of London Transport. Some more letters were S for St Albans
(still in use) and SB for Stevenage. W is in use for Watford and B
fro Borehamwood but I don't know how far these go back.
--
Peter Lawrence

Bus route numbering
 

In article , Robert Woolley
writes
a) Routes numbered in the 600 series are school routes. With the
exception of the 607, which is a limited stop version of the 207.

Routes numbered in the 500 series are Red Arrow buses. Used to be
limited stop and special fares.

Before that, 500/600 was the trolleybus series. Where a trolleybus route
replaced a tram route, the last two digits remained the same (so if tram
14 became a trolleybus, it would be 514 or 614).

--
Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address

Bus route numbering
 

From: Helen Deborah Vecht
Date: 12/11/2003 13:13 GMT Standard Time

I don't know if Wood Green or Walthamstow gave their W to the W* buses
though.

Back in the sixties (I was there, so presumably am not supposed to remember
it!) Wood Green contributed its W to prefixed routes followed by a single
digit. Walthamstow's W was always followed by a two digit number beginning with
2.

Therefore, strictly speaking, I suppose Wood Green was regarded as "W" by 55
Broadway and Walthamstow was "W2".

Bus route numbering
 

On 12 Nov 2003 23:29:09 +0000, jasonr (Jason Rumney) @ f2s.com wrote:

Paul Corfield writes:

Hounslow got H20 up to H37 plus oddities like the H98.

The H91 follows the 391 route most of the way between Hammersmith and
the Chiswick Roundabout, which has always seemed to me to be more than
just coincidence. The other oddities may have similar similarities,
or maybe Hounslow just ran out of numbers and took 90-99 as well.

Similarly I think the H37 used to be part of the 37, along with the
337 and what is still called the 37

Martin

Bus route numbering
 

In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
Ian Jelf typed


In article , Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
I *think* it has something to do with where these buses run.
U* buses mostly run around the Uxbridge area
H* buses mostly cover Harrow (except H1, H2 & H3, which go round
Hampstead Garden Suburb)
E* buses have an Ealing connection
PR* run around Park Royal

I think there was once a "PB1 (?) in Potters Bar, too?

Yebbut Potters Bar isn't in London. It's even on the other side of the
M25. (Just)

No but it was an LT bus route, the PB1, wasn't it?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG, Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
London & the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Bus route numbering
 

In article ,
(Martin Whelton) wrote:

and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

and RV1. Any others with more than one letter?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bus route numbering
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Martin Whelton) wrote:

and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

and RV1. Any others with more than one letter?

PL1, where PL stands for Lea Valley Leisure Centre... [1]







































[1] ...which is in Picketts Lock, of course.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus route numbering
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Martin Whelton) wrote:

and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

and RV1. Any others with more than one letter?

PL1, where PL stands for Lea Valley Leisure Centre... [1]
[1] ...which is in Picketts Lock, of course.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Was that the route with the bike attachment bus? does it still run?

A strange one is the G1 (Streatham-Battersea) where the G stands for St
Georges Hospital.
What does the P in P4 (Brixton-Lewisham) stand for?

& one other why did the southern bit of the Station Link get 705?

Paul

Bus route numbering
 

"Paul Dredge" wrote in message
...
What does the P in P4 (Brixton-Lewisham) stand for?


Peckham, I think.

Jonn

Bus route numbering
 

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:01:54 -0000, "Paul Dredge"
wrote:


"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Martin Whelton) wrote:

and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

and RV1. Any others with more than one letter?

PL1, where PL stands for Lea Valley Leisure Centre... [1]
[1] ...which is in Picketts Lock, of course.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Was that the route with the bike attachment bus? does it still run?

A strange one is the G1 (Streatham-Battersea) where the G stands for St
Georges Hospital.
What does the P in P4 (Brixton-Lewisham) stand for?

& one other why did the southern bit of the Station Link get 705?


Originally it was going to be 900 - in the Mobility Bus sequence.

It has been numbered 705, as

7XX - limited stop sequence (only other service is the 726)

X05 - ties in with 205.


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus route numbering
 

In article ,
(Clive D. W. Feather) wrote:

Before that, 500/600 was the trolleybus series. Where a trolleybus
route replaced a tram route, the last two digits remained the same (so
if tram 14 became a trolleybus, it would be 514 or 614).

or both. Usually for routes with terminal loops, 5xx working one way
round, 6xx the other.

However, there with 5xx and 6xx combinations that were independent of each
other and in different parts of London. This is mainly because tram route
numbers were never rationalised after the merger of undertakings into the
LPTB.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Bus route numbering
 

John Rowland wrote:

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Martin Whelton) wrote:

and of course C-Central for the C1 and C3

and RV1. Any others with more than one letter?

PL1, where PL stands for Lea Valley Leisure Centre... [1]

PR (Park Royal) 1 and 2.

Colin McKenzie