On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What is planned?
Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird.
It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations.

A tunnel between the bus and tube station!

An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There
are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office.

Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office
always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a
proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger
estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing
everyone to the BR ticket office?

There never was a LU ticket office at Walthamstow Central. It was just
like Richmond or Wimbledon in having TOC only facilities.

When we came to install the gates on the top end of the Vic Line (a
project I was Client for) we had to do something to provide for excess /
penalty fare collection. At the line's request we compromised the manual
gate installation so the window could serve both paid and unpaid sides
in order to provide some more ticket selling capacity (and income to LU,
of course).

We did look at putting a ticket office under the NR tracks but that
would have been hugely expensive and would have undermined the entire
business case for the whole gating scheme given the design and civil
engineering issues. At that time there was no thought of a new bus
station or the subway link.

The gates scheme was not at all popular with WAGN because they wanted
them at their ticket office level so they got their traffic gated as
well. However they weren't prepared to pay anything towards the scheme
nor to adjust their staffing to ensure the gates were operated at all
times - pretty much essential given the high traffic levels so as to
maximise the scheme benefits. Similarly they were enraged at the
provision of a ticket office that could sell tickets from the unpaid
side of the gateline as they felt they'd lose money and commission on
sales. Quite how "one" feel about an even bigger ticket selling capacity
in the new set up I can only guess at.

I'll readily accept the scheme at Walthamstow was a compromise but given
the lack of money we had for investment it was a case of the "art of the
possible" rather than trying for perfection and getting nothing done. I
still feel proud of those gates as I go through every day and know I was
instrumental in getting them installed. Unfortunately we were not able
to do anything about Finsbury Park but a colleague is piloting the
latest scheme through the design stage so perhaps we will get it
expanded and gated at long last!

A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go
from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central,
through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street
then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one'
platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid
ticket.

However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the
Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse
Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street.

Don't know to be honest as I am unclear as to whether Walthamstow
Central is configured as an OSI for PAYG validation. If it was then
provided there was the correct "in" "out" sequence within the time
parameters for interchange then it should charge one through fare. If
you then went out at Liv St NR and in at Liv St LU in the correct time
parameter then you're still on one through PAYG fare provided you reach
your destination in under 2 hours.

It will get interesting to see what happens when "one" extend PAYG to
their London network in January as I suppose you might argue someone
might go Blackhorse Road - Tottenham Hale - Hackney Downs and that
theoretically requires an OSI at Tottenham Hale. Thinking further though
I'd say Tottenham Hale is already like that because PAYG is valid
Tottenham Hale - Stratford on the "one" service there and taking it
further if you then changed to DLR or Jubilee Line at Stratford for
Canary Wharf you should be charged one through PAYG fare for Blackhorse
Road - Canary Wharf.

Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger
touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing
to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU
station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus.
I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just
extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an
unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'.

I'm not aware of any "tolerance" in the system. It's touch in, touch out
for each leg. I would guess (as I've not seen the logic) that the card
journey history is checked at each validation device and provided
entries, exits and journey times are fine then the charge will
eventually align to the overall through PAYG fare when the final value
is added back on at final exit (given that maximum fare is deducted on
each entry stage).

The only other complication to all of the above and especially the
examples from Vic Line to say "one" intermediate stations in Hackney or
even on towards Chingford is quite what the underlying ticket type is.
Zone 1 - Walthamstow is interavailable which means the LU fare and PAYG
rate applies. However interavailability does not apply at intermediate
stops in Hackney on the Chingford line and therefore tube/train rates
should apply. However these are only cash rates at present - I expect
PAYG discounted rate to emerge at the Fares Revision. Similarly the same
might apply for NR only journeys where NR zonal fares are charged - e.g.
Clapton - Highams Park. Quite how the system is going to differentiate
all of this I'm not very sure but it does it today on magnetics with
through ticketing so Smartcards should be able to cope. I wonder if the
passengers can?
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!