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#1
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Walthamstow Central
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote: What is planned? Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird. It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations. A tunnel between the bus and tube station! An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office. Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing everyone to the BR ticket office? There never was a LU ticket office at Walthamstow Central. It was just like Richmond or Wimbledon in having TOC only facilities. When we came to install the gates on the top end of the Vic Line (a project I was Client for) we had to do something to provide for excess / penalty fare collection. At the line's request we compromised the manual gate installation so the window could serve both paid and unpaid sides in order to provide some more ticket selling capacity (and income to LU, of course). We did look at putting a ticket office under the NR tracks but that would have been hugely expensive and would have undermined the entire business case for the whole gating scheme given the design and civil engineering issues. At that time there was no thought of a new bus station or the subway link. The gates scheme was not at all popular with WAGN because they wanted them at their ticket office level so they got their traffic gated as well. However they weren't prepared to pay anything towards the scheme nor to adjust their staffing to ensure the gates were operated at all times - pretty much essential given the high traffic levels so as to maximise the scheme benefits. Similarly they were enraged at the provision of a ticket office that could sell tickets from the unpaid side of the gateline as they felt they'd lose money and commission on sales. Quite how "one" feel about an even bigger ticket selling capacity in the new set up I can only guess at. I'll readily accept the scheme at Walthamstow was a compromise but given the lack of money we had for investment it was a case of the "art of the possible" rather than trying for perfection and getting nothing done. I still feel proud of those gates as I go through every day and know I was instrumental in getting them installed. Unfortunately we were not able to do anything about Finsbury Park but a colleague is piloting the latest scheme through the design stage so perhaps we will get it expanded and gated at long last! A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central, through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one' platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid ticket. However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street. Don't know to be honest as I am unclear as to whether Walthamstow Central is configured as an OSI for PAYG validation. If it was then provided there was the correct "in" "out" sequence within the time parameters for interchange then it should charge one through fare. If you then went out at Liv St NR and in at Liv St LU in the correct time parameter then you're still on one through PAYG fare provided you reach your destination in under 2 hours. It will get interesting to see what happens when "one" extend PAYG to their London network in January as I suppose you might argue someone might go Blackhorse Road - Tottenham Hale - Hackney Downs and that theoretically requires an OSI at Tottenham Hale. Thinking further though I'd say Tottenham Hale is already like that because PAYG is valid Tottenham Hale - Stratford on the "one" service there and taking it further if you then changed to DLR or Jubilee Line at Stratford for Canary Wharf you should be charged one through PAYG fare for Blackhorse Road - Canary Wharf. Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus. I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'. I'm not aware of any "tolerance" in the system. It's touch in, touch out for each leg. I would guess (as I've not seen the logic) that the card journey history is checked at each validation device and provided entries, exits and journey times are fine then the charge will eventually align to the overall through PAYG fare when the final value is added back on at final exit (given that maximum fare is deducted on each entry stage). The only other complication to all of the above and especially the examples from Vic Line to say "one" intermediate stations in Hackney or even on towards Chingford is quite what the underlying ticket type is. Zone 1 - Walthamstow is interavailable which means the LU fare and PAYG rate applies. However interavailability does not apply at intermediate stops in Hackney on the Chingford line and therefore tube/train rates should apply. However these are only cash rates at present - I expect PAYG discounted rate to emerge at the Fares Revision. Similarly the same might apply for NR only journeys where NR zonal fares are charged - e.g. Clapton - Highams Park. Quite how the system is going to differentiate all of this I'm not very sure but it does it today on magnetics with through ticketing so Smartcards should be able to cope. I wonder if the passengers can? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
#2
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Walthamstow Central
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:15:50 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:02:57 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:47:41 +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote: What is planned? Recently, I found no ticket selling facilities near the gate line weird. It cries out for a pedestrian tunnel between rail and bus stations. A tunnel between the bus and tube station! An enlarged LU ticket office where the old assistance office was. There are several (3?) LU ticket machines as part of the enlarged office. Glad to hear that this is all coming along. The 'one' ticket office always seems somewhat deluged. Did LU run out of money to build a proper ticket office in the first place, or were the passenger estimates low enough to think they could get away with directing everyone to the BR ticket office? There never was a LU ticket office at Walthamstow Central. It was just like Richmond or Wimbledon in having TOC only facilities. When we came to install the gates on the top end of the Vic Line (a project I was Client for) we had to do something to provide for excess / penalty fare collection. At the line's request we compromised the manual gate installation so the window could serve both paid and unpaid sides in order to provide some more ticket selling capacity (and income to LU, of course). We did look at putting a ticket office under the NR tracks but that would have been hugely expensive and would have undermined the entire business case for the whole gating scheme given the design and civil engineering issues. At that time there was no thought of a new bus station or the subway link. The gates scheme was not at all popular with WAGN because they wanted them at their ticket office level so they got their traffic gated as well. However they weren't prepared to pay anything towards the scheme nor to adjust their staffing to ensure the gates were operated at all times - pretty much essential given the high traffic levels so as to maximise the scheme benefits. Similarly they were enraged at the provision of a ticket office that could sell tickets from the unpaid side of the gateline as they felt they'd lose money and commission on sales. Quite how "one" feel about an even bigger ticket selling capacity in the new set up I can only guess at. I'll readily accept the scheme at Walthamstow was a compromise but given the lack of money we had for investment it was a case of the "art of the possible" rather than trying for perfection and getting nothing done. I still feel proud of those gates as I go through every day and know I was instrumental in getting them installed. Unfortunately we were not able to do anything about Finsbury Park but a colleague is piloting the latest scheme through the design stage so perhaps we will get it expanded and gated at long last! A question for you Paul. If, when using Oyster PAYG, you were to go from Blackhorse Road on the Victoria line to Walthamstow Central, through the gates and then board a 'one' train to Liverpool Street then you should obviously touch-in on the readers on the 'one' platforms at Walthamstow Central - otherwise you wouldn't have a valid ticket. However let's say you did this anyway, I'm wondering whether the Oyster system might not just go along with it an extend the Blackhorse Road - Walthamstow Central journey to Liverpool Street. Don't know to be honest as I am unclear as to whether Walthamstow Central is configured as an OSI for PAYG validation. If it was then provided there was the correct "in" "out" sequence within the time parameters for interchange then it should charge one through fare. If you then went out at Liv St NR and in at Liv St LU in the correct time parameter then you're still on one through PAYG fare provided you reach your destination in under 2 hours. It will get interesting to see what happens when "one" extend PAYG to their London network in January as I suppose you might argue someone might go Blackhorse Road - Tottenham Hale - Hackney Downs and that theoretically requires an OSI at Tottenham Hale. Thinking further though I'd say Tottenham Hale is already like that because PAYG is valid Tottenham Hale - Stratford on the "one" service there and taking it further if you then changed to DLR or Jubilee Line at Stratford for Canary Wharf you should be charged one through PAYG fare for Blackhorse Road - Canary Wharf. Perhaps that's a bad example - a similar scenario would be a passenger touching-in at Walthamstow Central, going to Liverpool Street, failing to touch-out (let's say the gates were left open) then entering the LU station through the gates and exiting the system at say Oxford Circus. I'm inclined to think that the system might tolerate this and just extend the journey to cover both legs rather than in leading to an unresolved journey and hence the £4 'charge'. I'm not aware of any "tolerance" in the system. It's touch in, touch out for each leg. I would guess (as I've not seen the logic) that the card journey history is checked at each validation device and provided entries, exits and journey times are fine then the charge will eventually align to the overall through PAYG fare when the final value is added back on at final exit (given that maximum fare is deducted on each entry stage). The only other complication to all of the above and especially the examples from Vic Line to say "one" intermediate stations in Hackney or even on towards Chingford is quite what the underlying ticket type is. Zone 1 - Walthamstow is interavailable which means the LU fare and PAYG rate applies. However interavailability does not apply at intermediate stops in Hackney on the Chingford line and therefore tube/train rates should apply. However these are only cash rates at present - I expect PAYG discounted rate to emerge at the Fares Revision. Similarly the same might apply for NR only journeys where NR zonal fares are charged - e.g. Clapton - Highams Park. Quite how the system is going to differentiate all of this I'm not very sure but it does it today on magnetics with through ticketing so Smartcards should be able to cope. I wonder if the passengers can? I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card. |
#3
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Walthamstow Central
On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote:
(snip previous quoted posts) I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card. There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the 'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that. |
#4
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Walthamstow Central
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote: (snip previous quoted posts) I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card. There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the 'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that. Err no there are not. They are strictly at the entrances to the platform from each of the "one" ticket offices. The OP is correct. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
#5
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Walthamstow Central
On 26 Nov, 20:07, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote: (snip previous quoted posts) I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card. There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the 'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that. Err no there are not. They are strictly at the entrances to the platform from each of the "one" ticket offices. The OP is correct. -- Paul C Misunderstanding alert. I thought Martyn Dawe was saying he had to go *down* to the Tube ticket hall and validate his Oyster there, so I was merely trying to point out that Oyster readers existed at overground platform level on both platforms. But of course I now see his point, that the subway provides a new route to the 'one' platforms that doesn't pass any Oyster readers. That's something I daresay 'one' railway should address before PAYG goes live on their network in London in January. |
#6
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Walthamstow Central
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:11:20 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: On 26 Nov, 20:07, Paul Corfield wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:54:30 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On 26 Nov, 17:06, Martyn Dawe wrote: (snip previous quoted posts) I used the Bus rail subway recently to use the NR to Liverpool St and had to go to the ticket hall to Validate my Oyster Card. There are Oyster readers (or more precisely validators) on both of the 'one' platforms so you shouldn't have needed to do that. Err no there are not. They are strictly at the entrances to the platform from each of the "one" ticket offices. The OP is correct. -- Paul C Misunderstanding alert. I thought Martyn Dawe was saying he had to go *down* to the Tube ticket hall and validate his Oyster there, so I was merely trying to point out that Oyster readers existed at overground platform level on both platforms. But of course I now see his point, that the subway provides a new route to the 'one' platforms that doesn't pass any Oyster readers. That's something I daresay 'one' railway should address before PAYG goes live on their network in London in January. I entered the subway from the bus station & carried on to the Liverpool St bound platform ! |
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