On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:36:19 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:44:18 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT), Rupert Candy
wrote:
Incidentally, why did they have to make a 'pretend Underground train'
out of a watered-down suburban train with only 2 doors per side?
Surely the future S stock would have made a much better base vehicle
for this sort of application?
The whole of LO appears to me to be an almighty expensive cop-out for a
capital city. Look at Merseyrail for how it should be done (and
without any new MUs), then try again. Tube-style trains are a
compromise for the Tube. There is no need for a heavy-rail S-Bahn to
be like that.
That's an interesting comparison but I really don't see Overground being
remotely like a German style S Bahn service. I suspect that if TfL had
sought to construct Overground to the lavish specification that's
typically used in Germany we'd have got precisely nowhere in terms of
getting the lines improved.
Hang on, hang on: what are the differences between what we're getting and
what the Germans have got that are significant? I've never been to Germany
or gone on any kind of bahn, so i don't know what they're like.
They are like a mix of suburban train services with central area tunnel
sections to distribute people into the central business district as well
as providing a cross regional link. Not unlike Crossrail or the RER in
some respects. Berlin has orbital services and I think the Rhine Ruhr
does too but I don't see London Overground being remotely comparable to
those sorts of networks.
Is it seats vs standing space? Do S-bahnen have more? Isn't that because
they're like a RER or Thameslink, and run from far out? Whereas the Goblin
only runs for a few miles, so doesn't need to be all-seater, and since
it's going to be two cars every fifteen minutes but will hopefully attract
lots more people because of the rebranding, benefits from the extra
standing capacity that comes with longitudinal seating.
In my limited experience - I accept Neil will know more - the Germans
have typically done a comprehensive rebuild and separation of S Bahn
services from other services. Stations are rebuilt to a common standard,
conflicting junctions are removed, signalling is redone, new fleets of
trains are introduced and you usually get integrated ticketing. In some
cases you also get underground sections through city centres to link up
parts of the network and / or remove the problems of stub end terminals
with all the reversing issues that arise.
The service networks are often very extensive in their reach with pretty
intensive service levels but I think some more recent schemes have been
more modest in their scope to contain costs.
We are getting new trains, tarted up stations (ignoring ELLX which is on
a different scale), some signalling works and some limited segregation
Highbury - Camden Road. We've also got Oyster ticketing which is partly
integrated at the moment but obviously Overground is more to do with the
rail network that say buses or DLR. Much of the infrastructure work is
to try to accommodate ELLX reaching Highbury and to accommodate freight
not segregate it! We've also just had yet more cost cutting at Camden
Road which compromises the service offer and potentially service
quality.
I'm grateful we're getting the work done but a rebuild to S Bahn
standards it is not - perhaps because the lines that constitute
Overground could never really mirror what I see as a German S Bahn
network. Still I'm sure we'll see Neil's response in due time and see
what aspects he is critical of.
Basically i don't get the use of 'tube-style trains' as a diss. Tube-style
trains aren't a compromise, they're exactly what's needed on the tube.
If it's the paucity of doors that's being criticised, then i'm with that.
Given that none of us have travelled in a 378 or seen one in action yet
I think it's too early to be critical. Having seen one or two busy NLL
trains I can see why there is an emphasis on standing space rather than
seats. Whether the design is correct internally we shall wait and see. I
doubt it will prove impossible to rejig the interior if it is deemed not
to "work" correctly.
--
Paul C