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The UK march agaimst Bush
In Stimpy wrote: kedron wrote: But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war, pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong. I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens. What do the rest of you think? I've been around for 43 years now... Deepest sympathies. and know no-one who has ever been on any kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care *that* much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover - So WHO are all these people who demonstrate? How can you account for all those examples I provided above? I left a few examples out -- like trade union demonstrators, animal rights activists, environmentalists etc People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things, many of which you never hear about...like this one which appeared in the news only yesterday: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/3272961.stm I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised. they, like me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to create a secure future for their families. You think demonstrators don't do that as well? Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration about them - I have better things to do with my time And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't care enough about anything to want to do something about it. Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week. The difference between caring enough and not caring enough is a world of a difference. And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened in THEIR names. -- kedron |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
kedron wrote:
In Stimpy wrote: kedron wrote: But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war, pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong. I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens. What do the rest of you think? I've been around for 43 years now... Deepest sympathies. Much appreciated ;-) and know no-one who has ever been on any kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care *that* much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover - So WHO are all these people who demonstrate? How can you account for all those examples I provided above? I don't know and don't really care. You asked what 'the rest' of us think and I replied. I can't really see the point in getting into an argument about someone else views. I was only trying to be polite by answering your question. I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised. Oddly enough, I was with 5 other friends last night and we discussed this very subject, apropos the Bush visit and the ongoing hunting ban debate. None of them had ever been on a demontrstation or would even consider it. Other friends I have known since school and/or university would also fall into that category. they, like me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to create a secure future for their families. You think demonstrators don't do that as well? Where did I say I thought that? Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration about them - I have better things to do with my time And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't care enough about anything to want to do something about it. Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week. I agree. I don't recall stating I disagreed with the right to demonstrate. I was merely posting that *I* didn't know anyone who would ever attend such an event. Methinks you doth protest too much! And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened in THEIR names. Ah-ha... so just because I don't have the time or inclination to demonstrate, that makes me smug does it? |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?
I think your subsequent sentence:- trade union demonstrators, animal rights activists, environmentalists etc gives the answer you were seeking, i.e. the usual rent-a-mob suspects. People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things, Really? I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised. I have already stated that, amongst my friends, NONE of them has ever been on a demonstration. Now that I think of it, the same applies to my neighbours - the ones that I know. they, like me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to create a secure future for their families. You think demonstrators don't do that as well? Not at the same time that they are demonstrating! Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most likely going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate. But I do agree with their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising that right than you suppose. A 100,000 or even a million or so - hardly a significant number when compared with the population as a whole. Try as you will, all the hype against Bush and the war cannot change the basic facts. I also believe that they can make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week. I believe in fairies too! The difference between caring enough and not caring enough is a world of a difference. Well, perhaps those of us who supported the war and wish to welcome Bush should take a day off work and demonstrate our support for the war and him. I care passionately about the World in which I live. The anti-Bush and anti-war brigade do not have an exclusive on this subject. And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened in THEIR names. The war did happen "in my name", which is why I take exception to those "not in my name" twits. Just because we don't take to the streets with "in my name" banners etc. does not mean our views are invalid or that we don't care about the World. Those who say "not in my name" legitimately represent nobody but themselves and they are exaggerating their own self-importance if they claim to be speaking on behalf of anyone else. Marc. |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
In Mait001 wrote: So WHO are all these people who demonstrate? I think your subsequent sentence:- trade union demonstrators, animal rights activists, environmentalists etc gives the answer you were seeking, i.e. the usual rent-a-mob suspects. Yeah, like pensioners. You're just a bigot. This is all about your dumb feelings, about yobs and people you think are beneath you -- isn't that right? People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things, Really? Aren't they? I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised. I have already stated that, amongst my friends, NONE of them has ever been on a demonstration. Now that I think of it, the same applies to my neighbours - the ones that I know. So who are all those people? More than a million people is just a rent-a-mob? Or do you actually want people to take what you say seriously? they, like me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to create a secure future for their families. You think demonstrators don't do that as well? Not at the same time that they are demonstrating! Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most likely going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate. So you'd rather get your day's pay than do something to prevent thousands of people from being slaughtered in a war, not sanctioned by the UN, and prosecuted based on pack of lies? Ok, so you agreed with the war -- but millions didn't. And many more are starting to realise they were conned. But I do agree with their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising that right than you suppose. A 100,000 or even a million or so - hardly a significant number when compared with the population as a whole. Try as you will, all the hype against Bush and the war cannot change the basic facts. Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like children, people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people who had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot more significant than you are trying to suggest. I also believe that they can make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week. I believe in fairies too! Tell that to the Eastern Europeans. -- kedron |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most
likely going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate. So you'd rather get your day's pay than do something to prevent thousands of people from being slaughtered in a war, not sanctioned by the UN, and prosecuted based on pack of lies? I do not for one moment live in the cloud cuckoo-land that tells me that those who demonstrate will " prevent thousands of people from being slaughtered in a war". Legal opinion is that the was was lawful and sanctioned by the United Nations. prosecuted based on pack of lies? That has not (yet) been proved to be the case, but I believe, with or without weapons of mass destruction, the war was justifiable. Ok, so you agreed with the war -- but millions didn't. And many more are starting to realise they were conned. Well, just because I happen to agree with the war, as opposed to opposing it, should I go on the streets to make my point? Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like children, people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people who had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot more significant than you are trying to suggest. There you go again, trying to spin a million (or whatever the actual number was) to represent many more than just themselves. I do not accept that, but even if they did, on your argument, represent say 10 million, that is still hardly the population as a whole or even "the mass of the population" or whatever other exaggeration you may care to use. I also believe that they can make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week. I believe in fairies too! Tell that to the Eastern Europeans. -- kedron The difference between the Eastern Europeans prior to the fall of the Russian Empire was that they had NO democratic process by which to vent their views. I do not accept that we, in the U.K. are in any way comparable to that situation. Marc. |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
In Mait001 wrote: Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like children, people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people who had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot more significant than you are trying to suggest. There you go again, trying to spin a million (or whatever the actual number was) to represent many more than just themselves. What are you saying? Are you saying this casual million, I'm spinning, represents the only people who would have marched had they been able to, or had it been more convenient for them to do so? The bigots, liars and morons of this country are the real rabble. eh? -- kedron |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
There you go again, trying to spin a million (or whatever the actual number
was) to represent many more than just themselves. What are you saying? Are you saying this casual million, I'm spinning, represents the only people who would have marched had they been able to, or had it been more convenient for them to do so? The bigots, liars and morons of this country are the real rabble. eh? -- kedron You cannot produce any evidence to suggest that the numbers who demonstrate(d) represent anyone but themselves. You are attempting to extrapolate those numbers into a much larger mass who, for one reason or another cannot, or decided no to, demonstrate. What I am suggesting is that, even if ten times the number did demonstrate, that would still be nowhere near a majority of the population. The bigots, liars and morons of this country are the real rabble. Now you are just indulging in a rant. Marc. |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
"Mait001" wrote in message
... You cannot produce any evidence to suggest that the numbers who demonstrate(d) represent anyone but themselves. You are attempting to extrapolate those numbers into a much larger mass who, for one reason or another cannot, or decided no to, demonstrate. What I am suggesting is that, even if ten times the number did demonstrate, that would still be nowhere near a majority of the population. I have pointed you towards numbers being quoted by several publications. WHile I admit that without knowing the exact questions asked these aren't 100% authoritativ, they are all we have at present. I'd be interested if you could supply polls that suggest that the majority of the people in this country do want to see Bush visit. Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with the only numbers we have, not your gut instincts. Best wishes, Jonn |
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The UK march agaimst Bush
In Mait001 wrote: What are you saying? Are you saying this casual million, I'm spinning, represents the only people who would have marched had they been able to, or had it been more convenient for them to do so? You cannot produce any evidence to suggest that the numbers who demonstrate(d) represent anyone but themselves. You are attempting to extrapolate those numbers into a much larger mass who, for one reason or another cannot, or decided no to, demonstrate. There is sufficient information by way of polls, both before and after the war, to get the measure of public opinion. Before the war, a pro-war majority was predicated on UN support -- without it, pro-war opinion was about 25%. Post war, support has fluctuated, but the country is pretty much split down the middle. (A substantial majority of the public now believe they were lied to). That's what the polls have said -- not your feelings. If now half the country does not support the military action that was taken, are you then asserting that none of that anti-war opinion has any support for the demonstrators? -- kedron |
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