Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

I have been pondering recently whether it would be worthwhile for the
collective brains on u.t.l to put together an unofficial guide to
Oyster - with all the basic info that was previously in the booklet,
alongside the slightly more complex stuff that's not quite as widely
published, such as OSIs, split ticketing, and whether you can get
railcard-discounted PAYG capping when you're just travelling on buses.
Would anyone be interested in some kind of a web 2.0-type
collaboration?

I'd happily provide hosting for it and whatnot. I was going to FOI for
an updated OSI list in January to post on Reconnections anyway.

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be
cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you
need to currently"

OK, so please explain that last sentence.
"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

On Dec 31, 3:34*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:28:51 -0800 (PST), Chris



wrote:
"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be
cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you
need to currently"

OK, so please explain that last sentence.
"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

I assume it means that because Gold Card holders are unable to have a
discount set on their Oyster card they might be disadvantaged by using
normal PAYG. However I fail to see why, given the £13 minimum fare M-F
for an adult Network discounted ticket that anyone would be concerned
about a Network discount for an extension ticket.

At weekends there is no minimum fare so it might be advantageous for
them to use their Network Card to obtain a 1/3 off an Anytime single or
return (given that there are no off peak tickets within the zones post
2/1/10).

I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch considering
the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as queuing at a ticket
office to purchase a ticket.

No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster
(which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still need
to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than getting an
IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:
Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

I wonder if the DfT has specifically approved this extension of the
penalty fare scheme?

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

On Dec 31, 5:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch considering
the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as queuing at a ticket
office to purchase a ticket.

No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster
(which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still need
to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than getting an
IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton.

You're speaking from your own experience. I was attempting to translate
the London Travelwatch words. *We seem to have come to two different
conclusions - hardly a shock when it comes to this complex subject!

I wasn't speaking from experience here (since IEPs haven't yet come
in) - just putting in concrete examples to make it a bit clearer. LTW
said:

"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

To me, that means:

"If you have an annual Travelcard on Oyster and want to travel outside
your zones on NR, it will be cheaper to get a paper extension ticket
with the Gold Card discount from a manned ticket office (which is
inconvenient, and which you need to do at the moment) than to use the
Oyster PAYG functionality with no Gold Card discount".

IEP doesn't even apply here - this point simply reflects the
unfathomably weird / crooked (according to taste) fact that even
though discounts for YP, Senior and Disabled railcards have been
enabled on Oyster, Network and Gold Card discounts haven't.

You could then go on to say "Also, because IEP means Oyster PAYG will
be a pain in the arse to use with a Travelcard on NR, the
inconvenience of getting an extension ticket is only a bit greater
than that", but LTW don't.

Agreed that their wording could be much better.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:02:49 -0600,
wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They
have been abolished. You are stuck with using the TfL website.

Isn't there even a downloadable PDF version of the booklet?

No and believe me I have looked. Barry Salter confirmed in a recent post
that there is no publicly issued document.

Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has
zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

In article
,
(John B) wrote:

On Dec 31, 5:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch
considering the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as
queuing at a ticket office to purchase a ticket.

No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster
(which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still
need to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than
getting an IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton.

You're speaking from your own experience. I was attempting to
the London Travelwatch words. *We seem to have come to two translate
different conclusions - hardly a shock when it comes to this complex
subject!

I wasn't speaking from experience here (since IEPs haven't yet come
in) - just putting in concrete examples to make it a bit clearer. LTW
said:

"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

To me, that means:

"If you have an annual Travelcard on Oyster and want to travel outside
your zones on NR, it will be cheaper to get a paper extension ticket
with the Gold Card discount from a manned ticket office (which is
inconvenient, and which you need to do at the moment) than to use the
Oyster PAYG functionality with no Gold Card discount".

I'm not clear what the fares are either way in this example from Saturday.
What are they?

IEP doesn't even apply here - this point simply reflects the
unfathomably weird / crooked (according to taste) fact that even
though discounts for YP, Senior and Disabled railcards have been
enabled on Oyster, Network and Gold Card discounts haven't.

But the only railcard discounts are to caps, so would they apply anyway
for a simple BZ2-Surbiton day return trip?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

In article
,
(martin) wrote:

On Dec 30, 9:52*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They have
been abolished. *You are stuck with using the TfL website.

Not to worry, you can always call a friendly travel advisor on a local
020 number for information.

Oh, wait...

I have been pondering recently whether it would be worthwhile for the
collective brains on u.t.l to put together an unofficial guide to
Oyster - with all the basic info that was previously in the booklet,
alongside the slightly more complex stuff that's not quite as widely
published, such as OSIs, split ticketing, and whether you can get
railcard-discounted PAYG capping when you're just travelling on buses.
Would anyone be interested in some kind of a web 2.0-type
collaboration?

What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at
when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document,
albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if
not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have
dug out that PDF.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

I hadn't appreciated what dreadful value for money the Network Card now
is given the minimum fare restrictions. I could, perhaps, understand a
peak times minimum fare but off peak? Are the trains really so full
that generating more marginal trips by offering standard discounts at
these times would be such a disaster?

It's mainly been more use from outside Greater London than within it since
the minimum weekday fare was set at £10 a few years ago. It's only ever
been usable at all after 10 am on weekdays but was good value for me, even
when I travelled to London four times or more a year for meetings. For
part time commuting its remains popular here in Cambridge. Now I have
moved to a Senior Railcard I get to work nearly an hour earlier.

--
Colin Rosenstiel