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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I think I've used http://www.prepayortravelcard.com/ in the past but it doesn't seem to be fully updated for 2010 yet and my local Underground station doesn't yet have any 2010 fare booklets.. Regards Sunil |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In message
, Sunil Sood writes Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I don't, but I can't see how PAYG would ever be cheaper than an annual Travelcard for somebody making the same journey for 5 days a week throughout most of the year. Although there is a big up-front payment, with interest rates at their current low levels I suspect that an annual travel card will always be cheaper - and, of course, it can also be used for shopping or leisure trips at any time without additional cost. The advantage of PAYG is for occasional travellers, part-time workers, those that often wish to go beyond their Travelcard zones, tourists, and the like. -- Paul Terry |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:07:52 +0000, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Sunil Sood writes Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I don't, but I can't see how PAYG would ever be cheaper than an annual Travelcard for somebody making the same journey for 5 days a week throughout most of the year. It used to be for me. Zone 4 into zone 1 at 2.80 each way, 5 days a week for 46 weeks a year (bank holidays and 4 weeks annual leave) is 1288 rather than 1472 for an annual travel card. In 2010 PAYG increases to 1426 which makes it close enough that a travelcard is worth it for the added flexibility. David |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 30, 7:07*pm, Paul Terry wrote:
Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I don't, but I can't see how PAYG would ever be cheaper than an annual Travelcard for somebody making the same journey for 5 days a week throughout most of the year. As David indicates - even for regular travellers - the difference between a PAYG Oyster and an annual Travelcard can be stacked in favour of PAYG especially if one leaves work outside the 4:30pm-7pm window (thus benefiting from off-peak prices) and/or your annual leave is taken into account. I gather for 2010 most annual Travelcard prices have been frozen, while PAYG fares are going up.. - which may well alter which is the best value for any particular individual.. Regards Sunil |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 30, 9:52*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I think I've used http://www.prepayortravelcard.com/ in the past but it doesn't seem to be fully updated for 2010 yet and my local Underground station doesn't yet have any 2010 fare booklets.. Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They have been abolished. *You are stuck with using the TfL website. Thanks for letting me know - it wouldn't be so bad if I could find a .pdf detailing all the fares.. even if there isn't a paper version! Regards Sunil |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Paul Corfield wrote on 30 December 2009 21:52:17 ...
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:23:10 -0800 (PST), Sunil Sood wrote: Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? Not that I am aware of. I think I've used http://www.prepayortravelcard.com/ in the past but it doesn't seem to be fully updated for 2010 yet and my local Underground station doesn't yet have any 2010 fare booklets.. Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They have been abolished. You are stuck with using the TfL website. And as far as I can see, you have to look at vast numbers of different web pages to get the whole picture. It was easy with a handy booklet to be able to compare different fares in order to decide which option to go for. Now you're forever clicking and scrolling through the jungle of the TfL site. Yuk! Or have I missed a nice comprehensive PDF file somewhere? Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station staff faced with a customer query about fares? -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In an attempt to find the answer I went to tfl.gov.uk. And here's the
email I subsequently sent: Good morning A journey through the website is even harder than a TfL bus trip in the snow! The news is that fares are going up. I want to know what the new fares will be using Oyster. For travelcards, single journeys – including PAYGo on National Rail - and price caps. From talk at work, in the pub and on the bus, I’m sure lots of people want to do the same. CLICK – I’ve got a bookmark for your home page. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/ OK, there’s a button on the top bar labelled TICKETS. Looks promising: CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx Good! New Fares for 2010 and Oyster on National Rail and just below that: Fares in 2010 CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Good! This looks like the right place: FARE FINDER – how much you’ll pay for single tickets CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...refinder/next/ Good! That all works. Now back to the previous page to check travelcards CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx Here we a Travelcards and passes If you travel a lot you might be better off with a daily, 7 day, monthly or annual travelcard. Find out more about travelcards and passes CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ets/10628.aspx Well, I suppose you need to explain what and how they work, so can’t really complain. But where are the fares? Oh, there’s a link on the left. 7 Day, Monthly and Annual Travelcards, it says. Sounds promising CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1059.aspx A more detailed explainer. But where are the fares? Ah! found it. ADULT TRAVELCARD looks promising CLICK http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...kets/4805.aspx Three cheers for TfL – only EIGHT CLICKS TO EIGHT PAGES to find the fare. But hang on a minute: Are these the fares for a ticket bought TODAY? or a ticket bought next week, when lots of us will be returning to work from holiday. THE PAGE DOESN’T TELL US!!!! SO what’s the answer? The DLR station in Woolwich doesn’t have a ticket office, so it looks as thought I will have to take a bus trip to North Greenwich to see if there’s a leaflet. If so, I will pay cash, retain the tickets and send them to Mayor Boris, asking him for a refund. Or maybe I should go to Wimbledon. At least they might understand my feelings – in the words of John McEnroe: YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS! Your website structure is incredibly well organised – it just ignores the needs of CUSTOMERS. Yes it would disrupt the incredible tidy structure, but a few days before the price rise, couldn’t we have direct links to the prices for Adult and Child Travelcards? PLEASE If the leaflet exists as a pdf please forward – or email me the link to the page with the new fares. Thanks. Obviously someone here knows the answer, but shouldn't TfL make it easier for us? Or am I missing something? Ken On 2009-12-30 18:23:10 +0000, Sunil Sood said: Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I think I've used http://www.prepayortravelcard.com/ in the past but it doesn't seem to be fully updated for 2010 yet and my local Underground station doesn't yet have any 2010 fare booklets.. Regards Sunil -- Writer / editor on London's River |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In message of Thu, 31 Dec
2009 10:59:11 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield writes [delete] Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station staff faced with a customer query about fares? There is internal documentation which I have copies of but I can't provide copies. I'd get shot at dawn I'm afraid. LU CSC did not know there is no intention to publish a couple of days ago. At what time would you be shot if you provided document titles? I feel an FOI Act enquiry coming on. ;) -- Walter Briscoe |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 30, 9:52*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They have been abolished. *You are stuck with using the TfL website. Not to worry, you can always call a friendly travel advisor on a local 020 number for information. Oh, wait... I have been pondering recently whether it would be worthwhile for the collective brains on u.t.l to put together an unofficial guide to Oyster - with all the basic info that was previously in the booklet, alongside the slightly more complex stuff that's not quite as widely published, such as OSIs, split ticketing, and whether you can get railcard-discounted PAYG capping when you're just travelling on buses. Would anyone be interested in some kind of a web 2.0-type collaboration? |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
I have been pondering recently whether it would be worthwhile for the
collective brains on u.t.l to put together an unofficial guide to Oyster - with all the basic info that was previously in the booklet, alongside the slightly more complex stuff that's not quite as widely published, such as OSIs, split ticketing, and whether you can get railcard-discounted PAYG capping when you're just travelling on buses. Would anyone be interested in some kind of a web 2.0-type collaboration? I'd happily provide hosting for it and whatnot. I was going to FOI for an updated OSI list in January to post on Reconnections anyway. |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here - http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says "Oyster Extension Permits If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" OK, so please explain that last sentence. "If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 31, 3:34*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:28:51 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote: "Oyster Extension Permits If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" OK, so please explain that last sentence. "If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" I assume it means that because Gold Card holders are unable to have a discount set on their Oyster card they might be disadvantaged by using normal PAYG. However I fail to see why, given the £13 minimum fare M-F for an adult Network discounted ticket that anyone would be concerned about a Network discount for an extension ticket. At weekends there is no minimum fare so it might be advantageous for them to use their Network Card to obtain a 1/3 off an Anytime single or return (given that there are no off peak tickets within the zones post 2/1/10). I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch considering the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as queuing at a ticket office to purchase a ticket. No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster (which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still need to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than getting an IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:
Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says "Oyster Extension Permits If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit on your card. I am pretty sure that this is illegal. There is no way that it could comply with the penalty fare rules. I wonder if the DfT has specifically approved this extension of the penalty fare scheme? |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote: Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says "Oyster Extension Permits If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit on your card. I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could comply with the penalty fare rules. How d'you figure that? In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand "produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy, inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel). For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that train, so you're eligible for a PF. It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes) - the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means of payment. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/ -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Dec 31, 5:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch considering the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as queuing at a ticket office to purchase a ticket. No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster (which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still need to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than getting an IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton. You're speaking from your own experience. I was attempting to translate the London Travelwatch words. *We seem to have come to two different conclusions - hardly a shock when it comes to this complex subject! I wasn't speaking from experience here (since IEPs haven't yet come in) - just putting in concrete examples to make it a bit clearer. LTW said: "If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" To me, that means: "If you have an annual Travelcard on Oyster and want to travel outside your zones on NR, it will be cheaper to get a paper extension ticket with the Gold Card discount from a manned ticket office (which is inconvenient, and which you need to do at the moment) than to use the Oyster PAYG functionality with no Gold Card discount". IEP doesn't even apply here - this point simply reflects the unfathomably weird / crooked (according to taste) fact that even though discounts for YP, Senior and Disabled railcards have been enabled on Oyster, Network and Gold Card discounts haven't. You could then go on to say "Also, because IEP means Oyster PAYG will be a pain in the arse to use with a Travelcard on NR, the inconvenience of getting an extension ticket is only a bit greater than that", but LTW don't. Agreed that their wording could be much better. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:05:14 -0600, wrote: [2010 fares document] Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares? I have no idea at all. I was expecting a booklet to be published as normal. While the 2010 package is undoubtedly more complex it is not beyond a written explanation as evidenced by the TfL website. I expect ticket selling staff have been getting it in the neck for weeks and that next week will be hell for them. My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. It's also very hard on those without access to the internet or familiarity with how to use it, mainly the old, if the internet is the only means of access to information. I'm surprised some disabled groups haven't got on to them. They don't get free travel on NR or do they? -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote:
What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document, albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have dug out that PDF. This document covers most things: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...fares-2010.pdf It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes have been made. U |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
David Walters wrote
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:07:52 +0000, Paul Terry wrote: Sunil Sood writes Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual? I don't, but I can't see how PAYG would ever be cheaper than an annual Travelcard for somebody making the same journey for 5 days a week throughout most of the year. It used to be for me. Zone 4 into zone 1 at 2.80 each way, 5 days a week for 46 weeks a year (bank holidays and 4 weeks annual leave) is 1288 rather than 1472 for an annual travel card. In 2010 PAYG increases to 1426 which makes it close enough that a travelcard is worth it for the added flexibility. So any such website would need an estimate of your normal travel plus how often you took a bus rather than walking (£1.00 extra) plus how often you left for work after 9:30 or started your journey home after 19.00 (£0.60 less for each - overtime or shifts or after work evening shopping). Best case would reduce 1288 to 1012 for comparison with the annual 1472. -- Mike D |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 12:05:14 -0600, wrote: [2010 fares document] Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares? I have no idea at all. I was expecting a booklet to be published as normal. While the 2010 package is undoubtedly more complex it is not beyond a written explanation as evidenced by the TfL website. I expect ticket selling staff have been getting it in the neck for weeks and that next week will be hell for them. My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. But it's not on the web in a usable form, not that I can find tim |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:
On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote: On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote: Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says "Oyster Extension Permits If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit on your card. I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could comply with the penalty fare rules. How d'you figure that? In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand "produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy, inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel). For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that train, so you're eligible for a PF. It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes) - the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means of payment. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/ But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the circumstances. An OEP isn't a means of payment. Will the exit barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the end of an ungripped journey? But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your journey? That's going to be the main issue. It's not enough having the information on the Web or discussed in forums. Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having touched in for liability. |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Mr Thant wrote on 31 December
2009 19:45:46 ... On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote: What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document, albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have dug out that PDF. This document covers most things: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...fares-2010.pdf It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes have been made. Did the Mayor actually sign that "Request for Mayoral Decision" or were any changes made? I'm not inclined to trust what is only a proposal. I urge everyone who is concerned about this to complain vigorously to TfL and their elected GLA representatives/councillors/members or whatever they are supposed to be called these days. (It's easier in Paris where they are just "élus" - the elected ones.) -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
wrote
(John B) wrote: "If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to currently" To me, that means: "If you have an annual Travelcard on Oyster and want to travel outside your zones on NR, it will be cheaper to get a paper extension ticket with the Gold Card discount from a manned ticket office (which is inconvenient, and which you need to do at the moment) than to use the Oyster PAYG functionality with no Gold Card discount". I'm not clear what the fares are either way in this example from Saturday. What are they? I take it that paper extensions like all in-zone paper singles will be 'Anytime' so I think cheaper only applies if you intend to travel in the evening peak. At other times "anytime fare less 1/3" won't be more than "Oyster Off-Peak" IEP doesn't even apply here - this point simply reflects the unfathomably weird / crooked (according to taste) fact that even though discounts for YP, Senior and Disabled railcards have been enabled on Oyster, Network and Gold Card discounts haven't. But the only railcard discounts are to caps, so would they apply anyway for a simple BZ2-Surbiton day return trip? Hee ! Now /that/ is in a paper leaflet _Oyster pay as you go on National Rail - From 2 January 2010_ as well as online "Senior, 16-25, Disabled Persons and Forces Railcard holders can get 1/3 discounts on the adult Off-Peak Oyster PAYG /fare/ for most journeys on National Rail as well as 1/3 reduction on the Off-Peak daily price cap." Peak fares, no discount on fares, of course apply for journeys that start between 06:30-09:30 or between 16:00-19:00. So further, as above, if a single journey on NR in the evening peak is the only significant travel that day (no capping) it will be cheaper to buy a Rail/Goldcard discounted paper ticket at "anytime fare less 1/3" than use Oyster PAYG. I think. (Copying from this NG) The BBC article[1] quotes the 'Mayor's Transport Spokesman' as saying that Oyster will offer the cheapest fare available; "the only exceptions are holders of certain national railcards for whom cheaper paper tickets for travel on national rail maybe available." -- Mike D |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Mr Thant wrote:
It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes have been made. "TfL has seen the biggest fall in journeys for economic reasons in over twenty years, particularly on the Tube, where demand had fallen by 6%. In total, a fall in revenues of around £3bn over the course of TfL’s Business Plan to 2017/18 is now projected. This fall in revenue is also compounded by other pressures," Funny how you never saw a statement in past years like "Demand has increased along with the corresponding revenues, so we need to reduce fares." |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In article
, (Mr Thant) wrote: On 31 Dec, 19:04, wrote: What neither this nor TfL's provision give me is something I can look at when I don't have access to the internet! That needs to be a document, albeit possibly electronic as I tend to have my laptop with me, even if not connected to the net. I can't think how often in the last year I have dug out that PDF. This document covers most things: http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor...md457-fares-20 10.pdf It's worth looking through the introduction text to see what changes have been made. Thanks. I'll look at that when I get time. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 31 Dec 2009, 23:04, Robert Neville wrote:
Funny how you never saw a statement in past years like "Demand has increased along with the corresponding revenues, so we need to reduce fares." Ken just used the money to increase GLA spending..... |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:42:47 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. As well as the push to put everything on the web, there seems to be a marked decrease in the openness of information. The trend seems to be to only provide it on a sort of "need-to-know" basis. For example, they no longer provide the zonal fare tables or Tube timetables; they only allow you to query the fare between two particular stations or get Tube times for a particular point in time. |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 1 Jan, 19:49, asdf wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:42:47 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. As well as the push to put everything on the web, there seems to be a marked decrease in the openness of information. The trend seems to be to only provide it on a sort of "need-to-know" basis. For example, they no longer provide the zonal fare tables or Tube timetables; they only allow you to query the fare between two particular stations or get Tube times for a particular point in time. I am reminded of my comments in the thread about the Thames and, more importantly, zones disappearing from the LU map. All this makes it much more difficult to notice whether fares have been increased or services have been reduced, both of which are going to happen. |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:20:56 -0600, wrote: [2010 fares document] Why this bull headedness? Is it because London in effect no longer has zonal fares because how you get to the zone changes the fares? I have no idea at all. I was expecting a booklet to be published as normal. While the 2010 package is undoubtedly more complex it is not beyond a written explanation as evidenced by the TfL website. I expect ticket selling staff have been getting it in the neck for weeks and that next week will be hell for them. My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. It's also very hard on those without access to the internet or familiarity with how to use it, mainly the old, if the internet is the only means of access to information. I'm surprised some disabled groups haven't got on to them. They don't get free travel on NR or do they? A disabled freedom pass does grant free travel on NR (and without the M-F a.m. peak restriction that over-60s have). But is Freedom Pass eligibility wide enough for TfL to escape the DDA non-compliance charge? Only London residents are entitled to Freedom Passes for a start and not all Londoners who would have difficulty using the web rather than paper are eligible AIUI. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
On 1 Jan, 22:18, wrote:
In article , (MIG) wrote: On 1 Jan, 19:49, asdf wrote: On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:42:47 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: My suspicion is that it is a combination of saving money and a continued push to put everything on the web. While the web is a wonderful thing it is not, IMO, a substitute for freely available printed documents. I have similar grumbles about the lack of proper bus timetables. As well as the push to put everything on the web, there seems to be a marked decrease in the openness of information. The trend seems to be to only provide it on a sort of "need-to-know" basis. For example, they no longer provide the zonal fare tables or Tube timetables; they only allow you to query the fare between two particular stations or get Tube times for a particular point in time. I am reminded of my comments in the thread about the Thames and, more importantly, zones disappearing from the LU map. All this makes it much more difficult to notice whether fares have been increased or services have been reduced, both of which are going to happen. While I understand that removing the zones probably has that effect, I don't see how removing the Thames from the Tube map could do so. -- Colin Rosenstiel I was referring to what the thread was about, in which I made comments about the removal of zones. The removal of the Thames is a different issue, since it was the last barrier preventing the southern hordes from invading north London. No wonder Boris was furious. |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
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Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
Chris wrote:
On 31 Dec 2009, 23:04, Robert Neville wrote: Funny how you never saw a statement in past years like "Demand has increased along with the corresponding revenues, so we need to reduce fares." Ken just used the money to increase GLA spending..... From the old newt-fancier himself in 2007: "'I am pleased that the strength of London's economy, and efficiencies achieved by TfL, mean that fares can now be reduced with no cutback in the investment programme or financial risk to the transport budget. 'This economic strength and operating efficiency creates benefits that should be returned to Londoners.' " Boris has, so he tells us, reduced GLA spending and created a more efficient TfL, so presumably the fares are reducing...oh, hang on, they're going up at record rates. [ignoring the point that TfL's budget is separate from the GLA...] Tom |
Pre Pay Oyster or annual travelcard?
"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message ... In message of Thu, 31 Dec 2009 10:59:11 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield writes [delete] Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station staff faced with a customer query about fares? There is internal documentation which I have copies of but I can't provide copies. I'd get shot at dawn I'm afraid. LU CSC did not know there is no intention to publish a couple of days ago. At what time would you be shot if you provided document titles? I feel an FOI Act enquiry coming on. ;) The wording in the Traffic Circular is *** Station Staff are advised that the Fares and Ticket Leaflets for customers will no longer published. Customers requesting a leaflet must be referred to the fares finder on the TfL website, for current and single fares from 2 January 2010. Staff information is contained in the Fares Revision Circular for 2 January 2010 published on the 'Hot Issues' page of the T&R Intranet site. *** Peter Smyth |
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