On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:





On Jan 15, 12:26 am, Ben More wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:17 am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

You will probably find that Virgin wont accept Oyster, as Watford is
more of a pick up outward and set down stop in to London.

As the OP was asking about when there are problems on the southern
WCML and Virgin allow Euston - Watford journeys on their trains, then
I would say that they probably would. I have actually done this (in
April 2009) long before the new validators were installed (I have a
travelcard season and so no need to touch in). On this occasion, the
Virgin barrier staff were a bit overwhelmed as trains were being
announced at the last minute and ticket checks were not thorough. At
Euston, in these situations, announcements are generally made about
Virgin accepting LM tickets (and vice-versa), so they would have
trouble refusing them.

Agreed - if VT are accepting LM pax and tickets for trips to Watford
Jn (and, who knows, maybe even Harrow & Wealdstone if something's
totally, utterly and completely up the spout) then they'll have to
accept Oyster PAYG.





The validators are more likely for use by LM passengers on peak time
trains that dont use platforms 8-11 due to capacity constraints, and
it provides more operation flexibility when there are problems or
delays meaning trains cant use designated platforms.

It is no longer just peak LM trains that use these platforms, LM now
have 6 trains per hour off-peak which is too much just for platforms
8, 10 and 11 to cope with (after allowing for turn around time;
platform 9 being dedicated to London Overground). LM arrivals rise to
11 in the morning peak between 08.00 and 09.00, several of which are
12 cars and so will only currently fit in platform 8 of the 'suburban'
platforms. Indeed, in the previous timetable, you could occasionally
see an evening peak hour Virgin service in platform 11, as it is long
enough for a Pendolino, but not a 12 car class 350.

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.


Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

On 15 Jan, 10:11, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:





On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

Isn't that what I said in the first place I'd just forgotten the
older one by the pillar.

On Jan 15, 12:16*pm, Andy wrote:

On 15 Jan, 10:11, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

Isn't that what I said in the first place I'd just forgotten the
older one by the pillar.

Yes it was, sorry!

(Though of course LM accepted Oyster PAYG right from the very start
between Euston and H&W, just as Silverlink had done before them... the
big change was of course acceptance from Watford Jn. Were LM simply
naive in not arranging to accept it from the get-go, or was it a
negotiating position and they were simply trying to call TfL's bluff,
in the hope of securing a better deal?)

On Jan 15, 12:52*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 12:16*pm, Andy wrote:





On 15 Jan, 10:11, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

Isn't that what I said in the first place I'd just forgotten the
older one by the pillar.

Yes it was, sorry!

(Though of course LM accepted Oyster PAYG right from the very start
between Euston and H&W, just as Silverlink had done before them... the
big change was of course acceptance from Watford Jn. Were LM simply
naive in not arranging to accept it from the get-go, or was it a
negotiating position and they were simply trying to call TfL's bluff,
in the hope of securing a better deal?)

I'd go with LM being 'surprised' by the extension of PAYG to Watford
Junction, after all, Southern accepted it from day 1. Of course Govia
already ran Southern, but took over LM on the same day as the PAYG was
extended to Watford Junction and I imagine that the local management
had other things to think about for the first few weeks. DfT probably
didn't even think there would be a problem

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:11:05 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

The same day the overcrowding on certain problem trains got worse.
Shouldn't have been done until the next timetable change so that train
lengths could have been shuffled around to cope.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Jan 16, 10:46*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:11:05 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:
I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

The same day the overcrowding on certain problem trains got worse.
Shouldn't have been done until the next timetable change so that train
lengths could have been shuffled around to cope.

The other way of looking at it is that it might never have happened if
TfL had just waited instead of taking the initiative.

On Jan 16, 10:46*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 02:11:05 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

The same day the overcrowding on certain problem trains got worse.
Shouldn't have been done until the next timetable change so that train
lengths could have been shuffled around to cope.


I can't say I noticed a big increase in overcrowding for the few weeks
before the timetable change. They didn't exactly widely advertise the
fact that they were now accepting Oyster from Euston to Watford
Junction and Bushey (Harrow already being valid). I doubt that extra
PAYG passenger were the reason behind lengthening trains.

On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 03:44:10 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

I can't say I noticed a big increase in overcrowding for the few weeks
before the timetable change.

There was a noticeable step-change in the overcrowding of the 1824...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Jan 16, 11:47*am, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 03:44:10 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

I can't say I noticed a big increase in overcrowding for the few weeks
before the timetable change.

There was a noticeable step-change in the overcrowding of the 1824...


But the overcrowding on the 1824 didn't get sorted out until December
2009 I must say I didn't notice it getting particularly worse than
before, but it wasn't one of my regular evening trains. It doesn't
take many extra passengers for a LM service to go from comfortable
standing room to nasty overcrowding. At the time we were talking about
(November - December 2007) the normal pre-Christmas busy period was
just getting started. I generally find this is the busiest time of
year on the slightly later evening peak trains from Euston.