I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

On Jan 15, 12:26*am, Ben More wrote:
On Jan 15, 12:17*am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

You will probably find that Virgin wont accept Oyster, as Watford is
more of a pick up outward and set down stop in to London.


As the OP was asking about when there are problems on the southern
WCML and Virgin allow Euston - Watford journeys on their trains, then
I would say that they probably would. I have actually done this (in
April 2009) long before the new validators were installed (I have a
travelcard season and so no need to touch in). On this occasion, the
Virgin barrier staff were a bit overwhelmed as trains were being
announced at the last minute and ticket checks were not thorough. At
Euston, in these situations, announcements are generally made about
Virgin accepting LM tickets (and vice-versa), so they would have
trouble refusing them.

The validators are more likely for use by LM passengers on peak time
trains that dont use platforms 8-11 due to capacity constraints, and
it provides more operation flexibility when there are problems or
delays meaning trains cant use designated platforms.

It is no longer just peak LM trains that use these platforms, LM now
have 6 trains per hour off-peak which is too much just for platforms
8, 10 and 11 to cope with (after allowing for turn around time;
platform 9 being dedicated to London Overground). LM arrivals rise to
11 in the morning peak between 08.00 and 09.00, several of which are
12 cars and so will only currently fit in platform 8 of the 'suburban'
platforms. Indeed, in the previous timetable, you could occasionally
see an evening peak hour Virgin service in platform 11, as it is long
enough for a Pendolino, but not a 12 car class 350.

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:26 am, Ben More wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:17 am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

You will probably find that Virgin wont accept Oyster, as Watford is
more of a pick up outward and set down stop in to London.

As the OP was asking about when there are problems on the southern
WCML and Virgin allow Euston - Watford journeys on their trains, then
I would say that they probably would. I have actually done this (in
April 2009) long before the new validators were installed (I have a
travelcard season and so no need to touch in). On this occasion, the
Virgin barrier staff were a bit overwhelmed as trains were being
announced at the last minute and ticket checks were not thorough. At
Euston, in these situations, announcements are generally made about
Virgin accepting LM tickets (and vice-versa), so they would have
trouble refusing them.

Agreed - if VT are accepting LM pax and tickets for trips to Watford
Jn (and, who knows, maybe even Harrow & Wealdstone if something's
totally, utterly and completely up the spout) then they'll have to
accept Oyster PAYG.


The validators are more likely for use by LM passengers on peak time
trains that dont use platforms 8-11 due to capacity constraints, and
it provides more operation flexibility when there are problems or
delays meaning trains cant use designated platforms.

It is no longer just peak LM trains that use these platforms, LM now
have 6 trains per hour off-peak which is too much just for platforms
8, 10 and 11 to cope with (after allowing for turn around time;
platform 9 being dedicated to London Overground). LM arrivals rise to
11 in the morning peak between 08.00 and 09.00, several of which are
12 cars and so will only currently fit in platform 8 of the 'suburban'
platforms. Indeed, in the previous timetable, you could occasionally
see an evening peak hour Virgin service in platform 11, as it is long
enough for a Pendolino, but not a 12 car class 350.

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

(This was of course back in the pre-LO dark ages when it wasn't valid
on the DC line at Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead, not north of
H&W - the fact that TfL manage to negotiate PAYG being valid north of
Queen's Park was arguably in itself a minor miracle, given that
traditionally mainline fares - i.e. BR/NR - applied on this stretch of
the Bakerloo line.)

Re the mention of Oyster and Virgin - it's not a PAYG issue at all,
but there was of course MIG's saga of trying to get Virgin Trains to
accept that a Travelcard loaded on Oyster plus a paper Boundary Zone
ticket (e.g. BZ 6 to Milton Keynes) could legitimately be used on
their services. I'm not sure there was ever a satisfactory conclusion
to this, was there?

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:32:09 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote:

(This was of course back in the pre-LO dark ages when it wasn't valid
on the DC line at Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead, not north of
H&W - the fact that TfL manage to negotiate PAYG being valid north of
Queen's Park was arguably in itself a minor miracle, given that
traditionally mainline fares - i.e. BR/NR - applied on this stretch of
the Bakerloo line.)

At the time PAYG was introduced, Queens Park - Kenton was
interavailable; it was only Kenton - H&W that was NR fares only.

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:





On Jan 15, 12:26 am, Ben More wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:17 am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

You will probably find that Virgin wont accept Oyster, as Watford is
more of a pick up outward and set down stop in to London.

As the OP was asking about when there are problems on the southern
WCML and Virgin allow Euston - Watford journeys on their trains, then
I would say that they probably would. I have actually done this (in
April 2009) long before the new validators were installed (I have a
travelcard season and so no need to touch in). On this occasion, the
Virgin barrier staff were a bit overwhelmed as trains were being
announced at the last minute and ticket checks were not thorough. At
Euston, in these situations, announcements are generally made about
Virgin accepting LM tickets (and vice-versa), so they would have
trouble refusing them.

Agreed - if VT are accepting LM pax and tickets for trips to Watford
Jn (and, who knows, maybe even Harrow & Wealdstone if something's
totally, utterly and completely up the spout) then they'll have to
accept Oyster PAYG.





The validators are more likely for use by LM passengers on peak time
trains that dont use platforms 8-11 due to capacity constraints, and
it provides more operation flexibility when there are problems or
delays meaning trains cant use designated platforms.

It is no longer just peak LM trains that use these platforms, LM now
have 6 trains per hour off-peak which is too much just for platforms
8, 10 and 11 to cope with (after allowing for turn around time;
platform 9 being dedicated to London Overground). LM arrivals rise to
11 in the morning peak between 08.00 and 09.00, several of which are
12 cars and so will only currently fit in platform 8 of the 'suburban'
platforms. Indeed, in the previous timetable, you could occasionally
see an evening peak hour Virgin service in platform 11, as it is long
enough for a Pendolino, but not a 12 car class 350.

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.


Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

On Jan 15, 7:57*am, asdf wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:32:09 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote:
(This was of course back in the pre-LO dark ages when it wasn't valid
on the DC line at Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead, not north of
H&W - the fact that TfL manage to negotiate PAYG being valid north of
Queen's Park was arguably in itself a minor miracle, given that
traditionally mainline fares - i.e. BR/NR - applied on this stretch of
the Bakerloo line.)

At the time PAYG was introduced, Queens Park - Kenton was
interavailable; it was only Kenton - H&W that was NR fares only.

Indeed - my comments were just harking back to earlier times, though I
grant you they could be seen as misleading.

So, if we're doing clarity, I should point out that whilst Tube/NR
paper tickets were indeed interavailable from Kenton to points south
(but not from H&W), when PAYG was introduced TfL managed to negotiate
to make it valid from H&W as well, including on the (slow *and* fast)
NR services towards Euston - which was a minor achievement in itself.
(And just to be ultra clear, the arrangement whereby NR fares applied
for paper ticketing between Kenton and H&W nonetheless persisted for
some years afterwards - it was only more recently that this
inconsistency was done away with, and interavailability of paper
tickets from H&W was ushered in).

On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

On 15 Jan, 10:11, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:





On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

Isn't that what I said in the first place I'd just forgotten the
older one by the pillar.

On Jan 15, 12:16*pm, Andy wrote:

On 15 Jan, 10:11, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:10*am, Andy wrote:

On Jan 15, 1:32*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:

[big snip]

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that one, which was a few years older. There are
now also two at either side of the ramp leading up to the concourse
which were a later addition. They pre-date the ones on the other
platforms by quite a long time though.

I think they date from sometime shortly after when London Midland
relented and decided to allow PAYG on their fast trains from Watford
Jn to Euston (after London Overground's acceptance of PAYG on the DC
lines all the way to Watford Jn more or less forced their hand!).

Isn't that what I said in the first place I'd just forgotten the
older one by the pillar.

Yes it was, sorry!

(Though of course LM accepted Oyster PAYG right from the very start
between Euston and H&W, just as Silverlink had done before them... the
big change was of course acceptance from Watford Jn. Were LM simply
naive in not arranging to accept it from the get-go, or was it a
negotiating position and they were simply trying to call TfL's bluff,
in the hope of securing a better deal?)

On 15 Jan, 01:32, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 15, 12:52 am, Andy wrote:





On Jan 15, 12:26 am, Ben More wrote:

On Jan 15, 12:17 am, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I see that validators have at last been fixed at the entrances to the
platforms at Euston that previously lacked them (platforms 1-3, 4-7 &
12-15). I wonder whether Virgin will accept PAYG when they run special
timetables that include set down stops at Watford Junction?

The EMT gateline at St Pancras International has also been upgraded to
Oyster (presumably for Thameslink diversions.)

You will probably find that Virgin wont accept Oyster, as Watford is
more of a pick up outward and set down stop in to London.

As the OP was asking about when there are problems on the southern
WCML and Virgin allow Euston - Watford journeys on their trains, then
I would say that they probably would. I have actually done this (in
April 2009) long before the new validators were installed (I have a
travelcard season and so no need to touch in). On this occasion, the
Virgin barrier staff were a bit overwhelmed as trains were being
announced at the last minute and ticket checks were not thorough. At
Euston, in these situations, announcements are generally made about
Virgin accepting LM tickets (and vice-versa), so they would have
trouble refusing them.

Agreed - if VT are accepting LM pax and tickets for trips to Watford
Jn (and, who knows, maybe even Harrow & Wealdstone if something's
totally, utterly and completely up the spout) then they'll have to
accept Oyster PAYG.







The validators are more likely for use by LM passengers on peak time
trains that dont use platforms 8-11 due to capacity constraints, and
it provides more operation flexibility when there are problems or
delays meaning trains cant use designated platforms.

It is no longer just peak LM trains that use these platforms, LM now
have 6 trains per hour off-peak which is too much just for platforms
8, 10 and 11 to cope with (after allowing for turn around time;
platform 9 being dedicated to London Overground). LM arrivals rise to
11 in the morning peak between 08.00 and 09.00, several of which are
12 cars and so will only currently fit in platform 8 of the 'suburban'
platforms. Indeed, in the previous timetable, you could occasionally
see an evening peak hour Virgin service in platform 11, as it is long
enough for a Pendolino, but not a 12 car class 350.

Oyster validators were put on the exit from platform 16-18, soon after
LM started to accept Oyster, but several services (both peak and non-
peak) used at least platforms 1-3, 7 and 12 regularly with Oyster PAYG
users, from Watford, Bushey and Harrow having to walk to the platform
11 gate line to touch out.

Before that (i.e. in Silverlink days) there was however a single
Oyster validator next to a girder near the ramp leading up from
platforms 16-18 - this wasn't exactly obvious, but then it was only
for the sole use of pax heading to or from Harrow & Wealdstone -
though Silverlink certainly didn't make any effort to draw any
attention to the fact that Oyster PAYG was in fact valid on the fast
trains twixt Euston and H&W.

(This was of course back in the pre-LO dark ages when it wasn't valid
on the DC line at Kilburn High Road or South Hampstead, not north of
H&W - the fact that TfL manage to negotiate PAYG being valid north of
Queen's Park was arguably in itself a minor miracle, given that
traditionally mainline fares - i.e. BR/NR - applied on this stretch of
the Bakerloo line.)

Re the mention of Oyster and Virgin - it's not a PAYG issue at all,
but there was of course MIG's saga of trying to get Virgin Trains to
accept that a Travelcard loaded on Oyster plus a paper Boundary Zone
ticket (e.g. BZ 6 to Milton Keynes) could legitimately be used on
their services. I'm not sure there was ever a satisfactory conclusion
to this, was there?

See www.virgintrains.org.uk.

I don't know where the pressure came from, but the turnaround may have
been partly to do with LM's smartcard pilot.