On 23 Jan, 15:50, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Jan, 15:17, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:23 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Paul Cummins) wrote:
For those who remember my fun with TFL/Tramlink and my Oyster before
Christmas, I had more fun yesterday.

The Oyster issue got sorted, but again Yesterday I came up by Travelcard.
This was a "Super-Off-Peak" travelcard, thus I can't come home between 4
and 7pm, which is OK, since I didn't plan to.

What I didn't expect is to be told by an inspector that I couldn't travel,
even within London, on any SWT service between those hours, on the
Travelcard I had.

What nonsense. *The "Super off peak" ness of the ticket applies only to
the SWT journey. *SWT cannot unilaterally apply a usage restriction
within London on routes and services not under their control.

Nor can they apply the rules to journeys on SWT services that are
wholly within the zones.

And this recalls my SWT inspector defacing an off-peak travelcard
between Richmond and Twickenham and claiming it could only be used for
one return journey (it wasn't even an out-boundary travelcard).

Seems that SWT training has not improved in the interim.

Paul Corfield wrote

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:23 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

The Oyster issue got sorted, but again Yesterday I came up by
Travelcard.
This was a "Super-Off-Peak" travelcard, thus I can't come home
between 4
and 7pm, which is OK, since I didn't plan to.

What I didn't expect is to be told by an inspector that I couldn't
travel,
even within London, on any SWT service between those hours, on the
Travelcard I had.

What nonsense. The "Super off peak" ness of the ticket applies only
to
the SWT journey. SWT cannot unilaterally apply a usage restriction
within London on routes and services not under their control.

And SWT (as opposed to their ill-trained staff) don't pretend to so
apply it.

As I posted on 5th Jan under "SWT outside the zones - evening peak
changes"

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/any...k-advance.aspx
click on -Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares-
[...]
From Monday 4 January 2010, the return portion of a {Super Off-Peak}
Day Return or Day Travelcard will change. You cannot use it to leave
London Waterloo, Vauxhall, Queenstown Road or Clapham Junction to
stations outside London Zones 1-6 between 16:00 and 19:00, Monday to
Friday. A map of this area is available here. If you wish to make your
return journey during this time, you should buy an Off Peak Day Return
or Off Peak Day Travelcard
==

Note 'to stations outside London Zones 1-6' which is Paul C's 'within
London' point.

If you have the time email a complaint plus ask any such ill-trained
staff for their rank name and number and to be shown a written copy of
the alleged restirction.

--
Mike D

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01ca9c53$a5c748c0$LocalHost@default...
Paul Corfield wrote

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:23 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),

The Oyster issue got sorted, but again Yesterday I came up by
Travelcard.
This was a "Super-Off-Peak" travelcard, thus I can't come home
between 4
and 7pm, which is OK, since I didn't plan to.

What I didn't expect is to be told by an inspector that I couldn't
travel,
even within London, on any SWT service between those hours, on the
Travelcard I had.

What nonsense. The "Super off peak" ness of the ticket applies only
to
the SWT journey. SWT cannot unilaterally apply a usage restriction
within London on routes and services not under their control.

And SWT (as opposed to their ill-trained staff) don't pretend to so
apply it.

As I posted on 5th Jan under "SWT outside the zones - evening peak
changes"

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/any...k-advance.aspx
click on -Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares-
[...]
From Monday 4 January 2010, the return portion of a {Super Off-Peak}
Day Return or Day Travelcard will change. You cannot use it to leave
London Waterloo, Vauxhall, Queenstown Road or Clapham Junction to
stations outside London Zones 1-6 between 16:00 and 19:00, Monday to
Friday. A map of this area is available here. If you wish to make your
return journey during this time, you should buy an Off Peak Day Return
or Off Peak Day Travelcard
==

Note 'to stations outside London Zones 1-6' which is Paul C's 'within
London' point.


They've actually dug them selves a big hole with this one, at least for the
travelcard version, because the published terms only seek to prevent you
leaving those stations listed above. So if you use the 'travelcard validity'
to Wimbledon for example, on a stopping train, you SHOULD then be able to
use the ticket for the rest of your journey to 'somewhere outside the
zones'.

But as we also know from the earlier thread, the website restrictions are
not the same as those in the current fares manual - which suggest you cannot
join the trains at all during the blackout period, and the example was shown
of the restriction also applying at Wimbledon.

The typical grey area all the TOCs seem keen to introduce with monotonous
regularity...

Paul S

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01ca9c53$a5c748c0$LocalHost@default...

Note 'to stations outside London Zones 1-6' which is Paul C's 'within
London' point.

They've actually dug them selves a big hole with this one, at least for
the travelcard version, because the published terms only seek to prevent
you leaving those stations listed above. So if you use the 'travelcard
validity' to Wimbledon for example, on a stopping train, you SHOULD
then be able to use the ticket for the rest of your journey to
'somewhere outside the zones'.

But as we also know from the earlier thread, the website restrictions
are not the same as those in the current fares manual - which suggest
you cannot join the trains at all during the blackout period, and the
example was shown of the restriction also applying at Wimbledon.

The typical grey area all the TOCs seem keen to introduce with
monotonous regularity...

FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
writes
FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

I'm not sure about that, or maybe I'm just not clever enough to
understand the current rules in all their glory.

On the FCC Bedford to London route, the evening restrictions apply (I
quote from the current FCC timetable booklet) where the "ticket covers a
return journey departing from area B to area D" - whe
B covers stations from East Croydon to West Hampstead inclusive,
C from Cricklewood to Radlett,
D from St.Albans to Bedford.

If you have a London 1-day Travelcard from area D you can avoid the
restriction by taking a train which calls at Elstree (which is within
the London Travelcard area and also in FCC area C). The journey from
London to Elstree can be done under TfL rules and so has no time
restrictions. The Travelcard clearly allows one to make a multiplicity
of journeys in the London area, plus one final journey back to one's
origin station from, say, Elstree. The second journey on the ticket
starts at Elstree (area C) and goes to area D, so is also unrestricted.
Of course you don't actually need to get out at Elstree, just be on a
train which gives you the opportunity to have done so.

I have done this several times, and have explained what I am doing at
the ticket barriers and had no trouble (but the automatic barriers are
not programmed to allow this). I think I have seem somewhere (but I
can't find it now) that FCC accept that travel on the stopping trains is
not subject to the restrictions: there is no reason that it should be
because (when things are running normally) they are always seats spare
on stoppers even in the evening peak.

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the same? If
you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do one section B
to C, then another C to D. But the argument then depends on what one
means by a "journey". In this case one is clearly taking advantage of
the "break of journey" rules, which implies that B to D is the overall
journey, and the ticket presumably only covers one journey each way, one
to London and then one from London. So it could be argued that what I
have called the B to C and C to D sections are not separate journeys but
only parts of one single journey, so the restrictions would apply.
I really have no idea which argument would prevail, which is why I say
that things are still unclear.

I don't know if there are similarly placed stations on the Cambridge
line where the same conditions would apply? If so has anyone tested the
rules with a variety of tickets?

--
Clive Page

In article , (Clive Page)
wrote:

In message ,
writes
FCC seem, after a false start, to have got this a bit clearer.

I'm not sure about that, or maybe I'm just not clever enough to
understand the current rules in all their glory.

On the FCC Bedford to London route, the evening restrictions apply
(I quote from the current FCC timetable booklet) where the "ticket
covers a return journey departing from area B to area D" - whe
B covers stations from East Croydon to West Hampstead inclusive,
C from Cricklewood to Radlett,
D from St.Albans to Bedford.

If you have a London 1-day Travelcard from area D you can avoid the
restriction by taking a train which calls at Elstree (which is
within the London Travelcard area and also in FCC area C). The
journey from London to Elstree can be done under TfL rules and so
has no time restrictions. The Travelcard clearly allows one to
make a multiplicity of journeys in the London area, plus one final
journey back to one's origin station from, say, Elstree. The
second journey on the ticket starts at Elstree (area C) and goes to
area D, so is also unrestricted. Of course you don't actually need
to get out at Elstree, just be on a train which gives you the
opportunity to have done so.

I have done this several times, and have explained what I am doing
at the ticket barriers and had no trouble (but the automatic
barriers are not programmed to allow this). I think I have seem
somewhere (but I can't find it now) that FCC accept that travel on
the stopping trains is not subject to the restrictions: there is no
reason that it should be because (when things are running normally)
they are always seats spare on stoppers even in the evening peak.

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the
same? If you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do
one section B to C, then another C to D. But the argument then
depends on what one means by a "journey". In this case one is
clearly taking advantage of the "break of journey" rules, which
implies that B to D is the overall journey, and the ticket
presumably only covers one journey each way, one to London and then
one from London. So it could be argued that what I have called the
B to C and C to D sections are not separate journeys but only parts
of one single journey, so the restrictions would apply.
I really have no idea which argument would prevail, which is why I
say that things are still unclear.

I don't know if there are similarly placed stations on the
Cambridge line where the same conditions would apply? If so has
anyone tested the rules with a variety of tickets?

I was really only thinking about the GN. I know that Thameslink gets
rather messier once you look South of London.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Clive Page wrote

On the other hand, if you have a simple day return rather than a
Travelcard from, say Luton to London Thameslink, can you do the same?
If
you do a nominal break of journey at Elstree then you do one section
B
to C, then another C to D. But the argument then depends on what one

means by a "journey". In this case one is clearly taking advantage
of

I suggest you need to see what the Fare Manual gives as the ticket
restriction as Paul Scott kindly did for the SWT case.

SWT outside the zones - evening peak changes
Date: 12 January 2010 10:49

--
Mike D