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best way to get around london for 3&half days
Hi all,
bringing my girlfriend down to London from pm-Wed 10th Feb until pm-Sat 13th Feb and was wondering what is the most economical and easiest way to travel round london. I visit 3 or 4 times a year but since it's her first time I expect she will mostly like to see the main touristy parts so should think we will probably be staying within zones 1-2. I've only ever purchased day travelcards before when I have been down and have never used Oyster so which would be best please? Any help appreciated. Shaun. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
X-No-Archive
My advice : One Day Travelcard. Z1-2 version is £5.60. There used to be a Three Day Travelcard but in their infinite wisdom, TfL have now withdrawn it. Oyster "Pay as you go" is far too complex. It might save you money, it might not. DRH |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 24, 10:05*pm, DRH wrote: My advice : One Day Travelcard. Z1-2 version is £5.60. There used to be a Three Day Travelcard but in their infinite wisdom, TfL have now withdrawn it. Oyster "Pay as you go" is far too complex. *It might save you money, it might not. Though Oyster PAYG wouldn't end up costing you any more than buying Day Travelcards, given the capping system - that is, apart from the £3 initial deposit. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 24 Jan, 21:52, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:28:58 +0000, shaunrobinson70 wrote: Hi all, bringing my girlfriend down to London from pm-Wed 10th Feb until pm-Sat 13th Feb and was wondering what is the most economical and easiest way to travel round london. I visit 3 or 4 times a year but since it's her first time I expect she will mostly like to see the main touristy parts so should think we will probably be staying within zones 1-2. I've only ever purchased day travelcards before when I have been down and have never used Oyster so which would be best please? Any help appreciated. Prepare to get lots of different answers! If you know you will make a number of bus and tube journeys then it is probably sensible for you to just get off peak one day Travelcards for the zones you know you will use. Latest prices here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...aytickets/2911.... If you don't think you will secure sufficient value from a one day travelcard then it would be handy to have an Oyster card set for Pay as you Go in your pocket if for no other reason than you get lower fares on Oyster than paying cash. Cash bus fare = £2, * Oyster Bus fare = £1.20 Cash tube fare in Zone 1 = £4, Oyster tube fare = £1.80. You can get an Oyster card at an Underground Ticket Office. You pay £3 deposit for it and then load cash on top of that. You touch in on the bus when you board - including on bendy buses if you get on at the middle or rear doors. There are card readers on poles as you get on. Your fare is deducted automatically from this one touch of your card. On the tube, Overground, DLR and now National Rail you must touch in and touch out. *You need to have a positive cash balance equal to the minimum fare to be allowed entry to the rail system. On entering the system will deduct an entry charge of £6 peak, £4.30 off peak. On exit the system will work out your fare and will typically add back money to your card so you charged the correct fare. For a Zone 1 trip it would add back £4.20 so you only pay £1.80. * There are different charge bands depending on whether you travel between 0430 and 0930 and 1600 and 1900 (peak times M-F), other times count as off peak. *The Oyster system will keep track of your charges and will "cap" your daily charges to the same as the relevant Day Travelcard rate. The real issue is that Oyster is now pretty complicated and has some fiendish rules that can catch people out. *I don't like to say this but I'm struggling to keep up and I think I understand it pretty well. *If you just want a very simple ticket and accept that you might make a small financial loss on it then the One Day Travelcard is worth having in your pocket. Have a good visit! And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. Add that to the £3 and they could be extremely out of pocket, with no convenient way of getting a refund. I'd agree with just getting a day travelcard, and long may they continue to be available. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
In message , at 21:52:21 on
Sun, 24 Jan 2010, Paul Corfield remarked: You can get an Oyster card at an Underground Ticket Office. But if you are arriving at (say) Kings Cross St Pancras it's worth choosing which ticket office quite carefully (because of the queues). The new "Northern ticket hall" (because it's to the north, not because it serves the Northern Line) probably still has the shortest queues, and can be found by turning right at the bottom of the stairs near the Platform 8 buffers. -- Roland Perry |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
In message
, at 16:02:48 on Sun, 24 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? -- Roland Perry |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
|
best way to get around london for 3&half days
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 16:02:48 on Sun, 24 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? Because it doesn't always work properly. This is what happened to me over the weekend; As I work for LUL I'd got a new PAYG loaded Oyster with 20 quid on it for use on National Rail. Kings Cross 01:19 Saturday touch in on platform validator, screen says "Entry £20.00" Alexandra Palace 01:46 Saturday touch out on validator, screen says "Entry £15.70" I knew this wasn't right as the fare should have been 2 quid. Anyway used the card a couple of more times over the weekend (KingstonRichmond & Kings CrossHornsey) for which I was charged the correct amount. This morning I went to the ticket office at Turnpike Lane and asked the chap there for a printed journey history as I'd picked up an unresolved journey. He printed it off and offered to "sort it out" for me. It was only once I'd got home that I discovered that his idea of "sorting it out" was to credit £1.90 back to the card instead of the £6.60 that I'd been overcharged (I'd been charged £4.30 at Kings Cross and a further £4.30 at Alexandra Palace instead of £2.00). Net net result was that instead of a PAYG balance of £14.30, I ended up with a balance of £9.60. So on the phone to the Oyster Helpline, on hold for 16 minutes, the lady sees what's happened and offers to refund the overcharge (can you see what's coming next?) I just need to make a journey from a tube station to pick up the refund. I explain that I work for LUL and so would never make a (chargeable) journey from a tube station due to my staff pass. I then had to hang up, go online and create an account for the card, phone back (on hold for another 12 minutes) and give the reference number from the first call for the overcharge to be credited onto a debit card. I know others have commented on this before but the systems in place for refunding overcharges really are not fit for purpose. Someone, who for whatever reason, does not wish to register their card & only uses National Rail apparently cannot get any overcharges refunded. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:50:40 GMT
"Steve Dulieu" wrote: Kings Cross 01:19 Saturday touch in on platform validator, screen says "Entry £20.00" Alexandra Palace 01:46 Saturday touch out on validator, screen says "Entry £15.70" Looks like the gate/validator at alexandra palace thought you were coming in rather than going out. Perhaps it hadn't been set up properly. B2003 |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 09:39, wrote:
In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , *at 16:02:48 on Sun, 24 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 10:58*am, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 09:39, wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. *Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. *Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. No, that's not correct - whilst the 'unresolved' journey (i.e. the problematic one that has 'timed-out') does not contribute towards the cap, other journeys that are successfully resolved *do* contribute towards the cap. And yes, I have experienced this first hand. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 11:36, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 25, 10:58*am, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 09:39, wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. *Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. *Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. No, that's not correct - whilst the 'unresolved' journey (i.e. the problematic one that has 'timed-out') does not contribute towards the cap, other journeys that are successfully resolved *do* contribute towards the cap. And yes, I have experienced this first hand. Ah right, although reaching a cap on the remaining journeys is probably that much less likely once the disputed ones don't count towards it. I was under the impression that if the system felt that it didn't know what you'd been up to, it wouldn't know which cap to apply. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 12:02*am, MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 21:52, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:28:58 +0000, shaunrobinson70 wrote: Hi all, bringing my girlfriend down to London from pm-Wed 10th Feb until pm-Sat 13th Feb and was wondering what is the most economical and easiest way to travel round london. I visit 3 or 4 times a year but since it's her first time I expect she will mostly like to see the main touristy parts so should think we will probably be staying within zones 1-2. I've only ever purchased day travelcards before when I have been down and have never used Oyster so which would be best please? Any help appreciated. Prepare to get lots of different answers! If you know you will make a number of bus and tube journeys then it is probably sensible for you to just get off peak one day Travelcards for the zones you know you will use. Latest prices here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...aytickets/2911..... If you don't think you will secure sufficient value from a one day travelcard then it would be handy to have an Oyster card set for Pay as you Go in your pocket if for no other reason than you get lower fares on Oyster than paying cash. Cash bus fare = £2, * Oyster Bus fare = £1.20 Cash tube fare in Zone 1 = £4, Oyster tube fare = £1.80. You can get an Oyster card at an Underground Ticket Office. You pay £3 deposit for it and then load cash on top of that. You touch in on the bus when you board - including on bendy buses if you get on at the middle or rear doors. There are card readers on poles as you get on. Your fare is deducted automatically from this one touch of your card. On the tube, Overground, DLR and now National Rail you must touch in and touch out. *You need to have a positive cash balance equal to the minimum fare to be allowed entry to the rail system. On entering the system will deduct an entry charge of £6 peak, £4.30 off peak. On exit the system will work out your fare and will typically add back money to your card so you charged the correct fare. For a Zone 1 trip it would add back £4.20 so you only pay £1.80. * There are different charge bands depending on whether you travel between 0430 and 0930 and 1600 and 1900 (peak times M-F), other times count as off peak. *The Oyster system will keep track of your charges and will "cap" your daily charges to the same as the relevant Day Travelcard rate. The real issue is that Oyster is now pretty complicated and has some fiendish rules that can catch people out. *I don't like to say this but I'm struggling to keep up and I think I understand it pretty well. *If you just want a very simple ticket and accept that you might make a small financial loss on it then the One Day Travelcard is worth having in your pocket. Have a good visit! And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. *Add that to the £3 and they could be extremely out of pocket, with no convenient way of getting a refund. As I state in another post on this thread, an unresolved journey does not cancel all capping for that day - instead, the problematic, unresolved journey will not contribute towards the cap. Seems to me the basic issue with OSIs and Oyster is that the system cannot retrospectively spilt a previously combined journey (i.e. one involving an OSI) into two distinct journeys and charge them as such, instead of just 'timing out' the combined journey. If the system could do this, then I think a whole host of problems might be resolved, however I've no idea whether it would be remotely do-able - it would require the system to do many more calculations each time an Oyster card was presented, I think. Maybe this is something that the next-gen Oyster cards could do? (i.e. the on board chip could be more complex perhaps...) |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 11:43*am, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 11:36, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 25, 10:58*am, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 09:39, wrote: [snip] In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. *Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. *Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. No, that's not correct - whilst the 'unresolved' journey (i.e. the problematic one that has 'timed-out') does not contribute towards the cap, other journeys that are successfully resolved *do* contribute towards the cap. And yes, I have experienced this first hand. Ah right, although reaching a cap on the remaining journeys is probably that much less likely once the disputed ones don't count towards it. *I was under the impression that if the system felt that it didn't know what you'd been up to, it wouldn't know which cap to apply. The publicity about touching-in and out is certainly suggestive that any failure to do so will wreck all capping for the day, though it doesn't actually explicitly state this. However what appears to happen in practice is that any unresolved journeys are simply excluded from the capping calculation. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 11:49, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 25, 12:02*am, MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 21:52, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:28:58 +0000, shaunrobinson70 wrote: Hi all, bringing my girlfriend down to London from pm-Wed 10th Feb until pm-Sat 13th Feb and was wondering what is the most economical and easiest way to travel round london. I visit 3 or 4 times a year but since it's her first time I expect she will mostly like to see the main touristy parts so should think we will probably be staying within zones 1-2. I've only ever purchased day travelcards before when I have been down and have never used Oyster so which would be best please? Any help appreciated. Prepare to get lots of different answers! If you know you will make a number of bus and tube journeys then it is probably sensible for you to just get off peak one day Travelcards for the zones you know you will use. Latest prices here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...aytickets/2911..... If you don't think you will secure sufficient value from a one day travelcard then it would be handy to have an Oyster card set for Pay as you Go in your pocket if for no other reason than you get lower fares on Oyster than paying cash. Cash bus fare = £2, * Oyster Bus fare = £1.20 Cash tube fare in Zone 1 = £4, Oyster tube fare = £1.80. You can get an Oyster card at an Underground Ticket Office. You pay £3 deposit for it and then load cash on top of that. You touch in on the bus when you board - including on bendy buses if you get on at the middle or rear doors. There are card readers on poles as you get on. Your fare is deducted automatically from this one touch of your card. On the tube, Overground, DLR and now National Rail you must touch in and touch out. *You need to have a positive cash balance equal to the minimum fare to be allowed entry to the rail system. On entering the system will deduct an entry charge of £6 peak, £4.30 off peak. On exit the system will work out your fare and will typically add back money to your card so you charged the correct fare. For a Zone 1 trip it would add back £4.20 so you only pay £1.80. * There are different charge bands depending on whether you travel between 0430 and 0930 and 1600 and 1900 (peak times M-F), other times count as off peak. *The Oyster system will keep track of your charges and will "cap" your daily charges to the same as the relevant Day Travelcard rate. The real issue is that Oyster is now pretty complicated and has some fiendish rules that can catch people out. *I don't like to say this but I'm struggling to keep up and I think I understand it pretty well. *If you just want a very simple ticket and accept that you might make a small financial loss on it then the One Day Travelcard is worth having in your pocket. Have a good visit! And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. *Add that to the £3 and they could be extremely out of pocket, with no convenient way of getting a refund. As I state in another post on this thread, an unresolved journey does not cancel all capping for that day - instead, the problematic, unresolved journey will not contribute towards the cap. Seems to me the basic issue with OSIs and Oyster is that the system cannot retrospectively spilt a previously combined journey (i.e. one involving an OSI) into two distinct journeys and charge them as such, instead of just 'timing out' the combined journey. If the system could do this, then I think a whole host of problems might be resolved, however I've no idea whether it would be remotely do-able - it would require the system to do many more calculations each time an Oyster card was presented, I think. Maybe this is something that the next-gen Oyster cards could do? (i.e. the on board chip could be more complex perhaps...) I am not sure that that approach would be necessary. If the system can already cope with variable timeouts, all it has to do is reset the timeout at the same time as recalculating an OSI as a continuation. It wouldn't need to resplit the journey with regard to the fare. I suppose then there's the (minimal) risk of someone travelling around all day, doing a few minutes' business only at OSIs, all charged as one journey. But is it justifiable to risk overcharging lots of people just to rule out the tiny possibility of being scammed by someone whose business involves spending a few minutes at OSIs all day? |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 11:59, MIG wrote:
On 25 Jan, 11:49, Mizter T wrote: On Jan 25, 12:02*am, MIG wrote: On 24 Jan, 21:52, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 19:28:58 +0000, shaunrobinson70 wrote: Hi all, bringing my girlfriend down to London from pm-Wed 10th Feb until pm-Sat 13th Feb and was wondering what is the most economical and easiest way to travel round london. I visit 3 or 4 times a year but since it's her first time I expect she will mostly like to see the main touristy parts so should think we will probably be staying within zones 1-2. I've only ever purchased day travelcards before when I have been down and have never used Oyster so which would be best please? Any help appreciated. Prepare to get lots of different answers! If you know you will make a number of bus and tube journeys then it is probably sensible for you to just get off peak one day Travelcards for the zones you know you will use. Latest prices here http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...aytickets/2911..... If you don't think you will secure sufficient value from a one day travelcard then it would be handy to have an Oyster card set for Pay as you Go in your pocket if for no other reason than you get lower fares on Oyster than paying cash. Cash bus fare = £2, * Oyster Bus fare = £1.20 Cash tube fare in Zone 1 = £4, Oyster tube fare = £1.80. You can get an Oyster card at an Underground Ticket Office. You pay £3 deposit for it and then load cash on top of that. You touch in on the bus when you board - including on bendy buses if you get on at the middle or rear doors. There are card readers on poles as you get on.. Your fare is deducted automatically from this one touch of your card. On the tube, Overground, DLR and now National Rail you must touch in and touch out. *You need to have a positive cash balance equal to the minimum fare to be allowed entry to the rail system. On entering the system will deduct an entry charge of £6 peak, £4.30 off peak. On exit the system will work out your fare and will typically add back money to your card so you charged the correct fare. For a Zone 1 trip it would add back £4.20 so you only pay £1.80. * There are different charge bands depending on whether you travel between 0430 and 0930 and 1600 and 1900 (peak times M-F), other times count as off peak. *The Oyster system will keep track of your charges and will "cap" your daily charges to the same as the relevant Day Travelcard rate. The real issue is that Oyster is now pretty complicated and has some fiendish rules that can catch people out. *I don't like to say this but I'm struggling to keep up and I think I understand it pretty well. *If you just want a very simple ticket and accept that you might make a small financial loss on it then the One Day Travelcard is worth having in your pocket. Have a good visit! And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. *Add that to the £3 and they could be extremely out of pocket, with no convenient way of getting a refund. As I state in another post on this thread, an unresolved journey does not cancel all capping for that day - instead, the problematic, unresolved journey will not contribute towards the cap. Seems to me the basic issue with OSIs and Oyster is that the system cannot retrospectively spilt a previously combined journey (i.e. one involving an OSI) into two distinct journeys and charge them as such, instead of just 'timing out' the combined journey. If the system could do this, then I think a whole host of problems might be resolved, however I've no idea whether it would be remotely do-able - it would require the system to do many more calculations each time an Oyster card was presented, I think. Maybe this is something that the next-gen Oyster cards could do? (i.e. the on board chip could be more complex perhaps...) I am not sure that that approach would be necessary. *If the system can already cope with variable timeouts, all it has to do is reset the timeout at the same time as recalculating an OSI as a continuation. It wouldn't need to resplit the journey with regard to the fare. I suppose then there's the (minimal) risk of someone travelling around all day, doing a few minutes' business only at OSIs, all charged as one journey. But is it justifiable to risk overcharging lots of people just to rule out the tiny possibility of being scammed by someone whose business involves spending a few minutes at OSIs all day?- A question (relating to "Bob" in another thread). Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? And if so, can they do it without resetting the cap at the same time (which went wrong for me at Canary Wharf once)? For the off-peak scenario, I guess that wouldn't matter. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:02:48 on Sun, 24 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? -- Roland Perry This just came up on uk.railway. http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....2a6f8db7?hl=en |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 10:50*am, "Steve Dulieu"
wrote: Because it doesn't always work properly. This is what happened to me over the weekend; As I work for LUL I'd got a new PAYG loaded Oyster with 20 quid on it for use on National Rail. I thought I'd read somewhere (or possibly just imagined) that LUL staff passes could now be loaded with a PAYG balance for use where they're not free. I take it that this isn't the case? |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 24, 10:05*pm, DRH wrote:
X-No-Archive My advice : One Day Travelcard. Z1-2 version is £5.60. ...which works on tubes, trains and the DLR within zones 1 and 2, and buses across the whole city, after 0930 and all day at weekends. Alternatively, if you/your girlfriend have a 16-25 Railcard, you can get a zones 1-6 off-peak one-day travelcard for £5 - which basically allows you to travel anywhere, on any means of transport. They're available from tube and national rail ticket offices, and some NR ticket machines. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
wrote in message ... In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 16:02:48 on Sun, 24 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: And someone on a touristy visit is particularly likely to be caught out, spending short amounts of time at what may turn out to be an OSI, thus paying maximum fares and cancelling all capping. I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Bearing in mind that the original question is from a newbie to the group, using such terms as OSI in a reply is stupid IMHO tim |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
In message
, at 02:58:18 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly get to Kew. On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys. -- Roland Perry |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 12:13*pm, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 11:59, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 11:49, Mizter T wrote: [snip] Seems to me the basic issue with OSIs and Oyster is that the system cannot retrospectively spilt a previously combined journey (i.e. one involving an OSI) into two distinct journeys and charge them as such, instead of just 'timing out' the combined journey. If the system could do this, then I think a whole host of problems might be resolved, however I've no idea whether it would be remotely do-able - it would require the system to do many more calculations each time an Oyster card was presented, I think. Maybe this is something that the next-gen Oyster cards could do? (i.e. the on board chip could be more complex perhaps...) I am not sure that that approach would be necessary. *If the system can already cope with variable timeouts, all it has to do is reset the timeout at the same time as recalculating an OSI as a continuation. It wouldn't need to resplit the journey with regard to the fare. I suppose then there's the (minimal) risk of someone travelling around all day, doing a few minutes' business only at OSIs, all charged as one journey. But is it justifiable to risk overcharging lots of people just to rule out the tiny possibility of being scammed by someone whose business involves spending a few minutes at OSIs all day?- A question (relating to "Bob" in another thread). Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? I don't think so - at least, I've never heard of such a thing. And if so, can they do it without resetting the cap at the same time (which went wrong for me at Canary Wharf once)? *For the off-peak scenario, I guess that wouldn't matter. What happened at Canary Wharf? Let me guess - you were refunded a 'max journey' charge back on to your card, but that all happened outwith the context of capping on that day? |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
In message
, at 04:13:34 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it. -- Roland Perry |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 12:59, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 25, 12:13*pm, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 11:59, MIG wrote: On 25 Jan, 11:49, Mizter T wrote: [snip] Seems to me the basic issue with OSIs and Oyster is that the system cannot retrospectively spilt a previously combined journey (i.e. one involving an OSI) into two distinct journeys and charge them as such, instead of just 'timing out' the combined journey. If the system could do this, then I think a whole host of problems might be resolved, however I've no idea whether it would be remotely do-able - it would require the system to do many more calculations each time an Oyster card was presented, I think. Maybe this is something that the next-gen Oyster cards could do? (i.e. the on board chip could be more complex perhaps...) I am not sure that that approach would be necessary. *If the system can already cope with variable timeouts, all it has to do is reset the timeout at the same time as recalculating an OSI as a continuation. It wouldn't need to resplit the journey with regard to the fare. I suppose then there's the (minimal) risk of someone travelling around all day, doing a few minutes' business only at OSIs, all charged as one journey. But is it justifiable to risk overcharging lots of people just to rule out the tiny possibility of being scammed by someone whose business involves spending a few minutes at OSIs all day?- A question (relating to "Bob" in another thread). Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? I don't think so - at least, I've never heard of such a thing. And if so, can they do it without resetting the cap at the same time (which went wrong for me at Canary Wharf once)? *For the off-peak scenario, I guess that wouldn't matter. What happened at Canary Wharf? Let me guess - you were refunded a 'max journey' charge back on to your card, but that all happened outwith the context of capping on that day?- Sort of. I was young and foolish and thought that the Jubilee gateline would continue an OSI from Heron Quays, having marched well beyond the (rather badly placed) DLR pad and not bothering to turn back. Instead it hit me with a "seek assistance", and also terminated the first journey. I sorted that out at the ticket office, but it seemed to reset everything, so it was charged as a new journey and the previous stuff of the day didn't count to the cap as I recall. In that case, I think I only lost 40p. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
"martin" wrote in message ... On Jan 25, 10:50 am, "Steve Dulieu" wrote: Because it doesn't always work properly. This is what happened to me over the weekend; As I work for LUL I'd got a new PAYG loaded Oyster with 20 quid on it for use on National Rail. I thought I'd read somewhere (or possibly just imagined) that LUL staff passes could now be loaded with a PAYG balance for use where they're not free. I take it that this isn't the case? Indeed, PAYG cannot be added to a staff pass, we had a circular come round at work telling us that if we wanted to use NR we should get a separate PAYG oyster. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
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On Jan 25, 1:09*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 04:13:34 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it. No, that would make it all to complicated. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 12:56*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 02:58:18 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: I thought I understood Oyster, but those remarks make no sense to me. If someone is "always touching in and out", how they possibly be charged more than the daily cap? In a phrase "unresolved journeys". OSIs can accidentally create them. Yes; eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. *Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. *Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly get to Kew. I've a suspicion the system might work on the basis of what the time was when the (original) journey started - so in this example the card gets presented to an Oyster pad at Kew which queries what time the original journey started (i.e. when the first touch-in happened, not what happened at CX), then checks this against the table of permissible maximum journey times, then if it's exceeded it presumes that the pax is in fact ending a different journey where they didn't touch-in when they began it - voila, two 'max fare' charges end up being applied (though the mechanism of these charges being applied is actually that they're deducted at the beginning of a normal journey, then refunded at the end on exit from the system - though in the case of the touch-out at Kew it's just taken there and then). On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys. I think one possible issue would be that this would require the Oyster pads and cards to perform calculations beyond their capabilities - looking back at the recent journey history and then splitting previously combined journeys, especially complex if there were multiple OSIs during the journey. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
In message
, at 07:32:52 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Mizter T remarked: eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. *Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. *Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly get to Kew. I've a suspicion the system might work on the basis of what the time was when the (original) journey started Yes, it probably does. That's why it's bonkers! - so in this example the card gets presented to an Oyster pad at Kew which queries what time the original journey started (i.e. when the first touch-in happened, not what happened at CX), then checks this against the table of permissible maximum journey times, then if it's exceeded it presumes that the pax is in fact ending a different journey where they didn't touch-in when they began it - voila, two 'max fare' charges end up being applied (though the mechanism of these charges being applied is actually that they're deducted at the beginning of a normal journey, then refunded at the end on exit from the system - though in the case of the touch-out at Kew it's just taken there and then). On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys. I think one possible issue would be that this would require the Oyster pads and cards to perform calculations beyond their capabilities - looking back at the recent journey history and then splitting previously combined journeys, especially complex if there were multiple OSIs during the journey. Doesn't it talk to a mainframe? -- Roland Perry |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 3:43*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 07:32:52 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Mizter T remarked: eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly get to Kew. I've a suspicion the system might work on the basis of what the time was when the (original) journey started Yes, it probably does. That's why it's bonkers! - so in this example the card gets presented to an Oyster pad at Kew which queries what time the original journey started (i.e. when the first touch-in happened, not what happened at CX), then checks this against the table of permissible maximum journey times, then if it's exceeded it presumes that the pax is in fact ending a different journey where they didn't touch-in when they began it - voila, two 'max fare' charges end up being applied (though the mechanism of these charges being applied is actually that they're deducted at the beginning of a normal journey, then refunded at the end on exit from the system - though in the case of the touch-out at Kew it's just taken there and then). On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys. I think one possible issue would be that this would require the Oyster pads and cards to perform calculations beyond their capabilities - looking back at the recent journey history and then splitting previously combined journeys, especially complex if there were multiple OSIs during the journey. Doesn't it talk to a mainframe? No, not to perform that calculation - it's done there and then, without any need to talk to the central database to work it out. None of the transactions between card and Oyster pad involve live communication with the database, which makes a lot of sense for several reasons. That's not to say that Oyster pads at stations aren't all hooked up to the system, but that's not the same thing as live database look-ups happening whenever an Oyster card is presented. I dare say that in this and other discussions we're making a whole host of dodgy and inaccurate assumptions, are not taking several important factors into account, and are perhaps guilty of leaping to conclusions - I can imagine someone who understood the guts of the system grimacing as they read it! Nonetheless, a function that's supposed to make life smoother and more seamless for pax - that of out- of-station interchanges (OSIs) - does often appear to be at the root of the problems that people encounter with Oyster. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
"Mizter T" wrote in message
On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 04:13:34 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, MIG remarked: Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it. No, that would make it all to complicated. And it's not already???? |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On 25 Jan, 15:59, Mizter T wrote:
On Jan 25, 3:43*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 07:32:52 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Mizter T remarked: eg you go from Greenwich to Charing Cross (with a change at London Bridge), take your snaps of Nelson, then go into the Underground for a trip to Kew Gardens. Because Charing Cross is an OSI, probably with a long timeout, the whole thing ends up as a single journey which could go beyond the time limit, leaving you with an unresolved journey and an unstarted journey at Kew, both of which are charged at maximum. Once you've got an unresolved journey (I'm pretty sure) all capping goes out of the window. That's bonkers! The system has the time I touched back in at Charing Cross, and can therefore update its expectation of when I could possibly get to Kew. I've a suspicion the system might work on the basis of what the time was when the (original) journey started Yes, it probably does. That's why it's bonkers! - so in this example the card gets presented to an Oyster pad at Kew which queries what time the original journey started (i.e. when the first touch-in happened, not what happened at CX), then checks this against the table of permissible maximum journey times, then if it's exceeded it presumes that the pax is in fact ending a different journey where they didn't touch-in when they began it - voila, two 'max fare' charges end up being applied (though the mechanism of these charges being applied is actually that they're deducted at the beginning of a normal journey, then refunded at the end on exit from the system - though in the case of the touch-out at Kew it's just taken there and then). On the other hand, if it wants to spot someone getting "too much value for money", then rather than create two unresolved journeys, it could split the trip at Charing Cross, and charge two individual journeys. I think one possible issue would be that this would require the Oyster pads and cards to perform calculations beyond their capabilities - looking back at the recent journey history and then splitting previously combined journeys, especially complex if there were multiple OSIs during the journey. Doesn't it talk to a mainframe? No, not to perform that calculation - it's done there and then, without any need to talk to the central database to work it out. None of the transactions between card and Oyster pad involve live communication with the database, which makes a lot of sense for several reasons. That's not to say that Oyster pads at stations aren't all hooked up to the system, but that's not the same thing as live database look-ups happening whenever an Oyster card is presented. I dare say that in this and other discussions we're making a whole host of dodgy and inaccurate assumptions, are not taking several important factors into account, and are perhaps guilty of leaping to conclusions - I can imagine someone who understood the guts of the system grimacing as they read it! Nonetheless, a function that's supposed to make life smoother and more seamless for pax - that of out- of-station interchanges (OSIs) - does often appear to be at the root of the problems that people encounter with Oyster. The bottom line, going back to the original question, is that the stress, uncertainty and risk of being out of pocket can be avoided with a day travelcard, as long as they are available. I'd like to hope that they will continue to be available till Oyster can genuinely offer a comprehensive, stress-free, risk-free replacement for them. And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the punter still buys into the Oyster system. Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the punter use it as such thereafter. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 4:08*pm, "Recliner" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote: MIG remarked: Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it. No, that would make it all to complicated. And it's not already???? Theoretically, no - you just touch-in at the beginning of your journey, and touch-out at the end. (OK, just one minor complication - you touch on a pink route validator when you pass one if you're specifically routing your journey to avoid zone 1.) What's a shame is that the OSI system (or at least the implementation thereof) appears to be causing a certain degree of grief. |
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"MIG" wrote
And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the punter still buys into the Oyster system. Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the punter use it as such thereafter. That sounds like a very good idea. Is there any technical reason why it can't be done? |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 4:37*pm, "John Salmon" wrote: "MIG" wrote And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day travelcards on Oyster anyway. *It's extra money up front, and the punter still buys into the Oyster system. Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the punter use it as such thereafter. That sounds like a very good idea. *Is there any technical reason why it can't be done? Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it (esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by offering it on Oyster, especially now. (MIG used to call for this in the days before PAYG was accepted on NR, but didn't ever seem to want to acknowledge just how confusing a situation this would have created - factor in PAYG being available for tickets extensions on the Tube but not most NR lines and it would have just been totally daft. And if it ever had been available then the impetus to actually get NR to accept PAYG would have been diminished - that was the big prize that has finally been achieved, much to the immense gratitude of travellers in London. I honestly can't believe he's still bringing this suggestion up now, it's *totally* daft.) |
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"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Jan 25, 4:08 pm, "Recliner" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: On Jan 25, 1:09 pm, Roland Perry wrote: MIG remarked: Is it possible for a ticket office to terminate a journey for you, eg when you are in an OSI but want to start a new journey, either with a long timeout or it's now off peak but wasn't when the first journey started? It's an added complication, but maybe you need a new kind of validator (on the wall somewhere near a ticket office) which terminates your journey *now* if you touch on it. No, that would make it all to complicated. And it's not already???? Theoretically, no - you just touch-in at the beginning of your journey, and touch-out at the end. (OK, just one minor complication - you touch on a pink route validator when you pass one if you're specifically routing your journey to avoid zone 1.) What's a shame is that the OSI system (or at least the implementation thereof) appears to be causing a certain degree of grief. Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor, yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message om... Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor, yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed. Oops, pressed send abit premature there, that last bit should read ..."that from my first weekend of oyster usage (see tale of woe upthread) I'm not hugely impressed. -- Cheers, Steve. Change jealous to sad to reply. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
Steve Dulieu wrote:
Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor, yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed. There have been posts here suggesting that these (and many other) LU/LO/NR interchange stations still need both yellow AND pink validators on the platforms, as pax may still need to touch in having arrived on a NR paper ticket from outside the zones. I'm sure someone posted last year that the platform validators at West Brompton had been changed to Pink, yet still functioned as Yellow at the same time as well. I can see that working if the Oyster card has't been touched IN before, but how can the system decide whether to treat a subsequent touch (having started elsewhere) as either interchange or a touch OUT correctly? Hope that makes sense... Paul S |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
On Jan 25, 6:08*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: Steve Dulieu wrote: Although that minor complication could be getting a bit less minor, yesterday I traveled from Kingston to Hammersmith via Richmond. At Richmond I saw a yellow oyster pad on the platform as I got off the train from Kingston "Ah-ha thinks I, just the thing to end my journey and let my staff pass take over". Just in time I noticed that the display said "touch here for interchange" and that the yellow pad had the word "Pink" handwritten twice above and below the oyster symbol in blue biro. At which point I decided that it was belt and braces time and exited the barrier with my oyster, turned around and came back in with my staff pass. I must admit, that from my first weekend (see tale of woe up thread) I'm not hugely impressed. There have been posts here suggesting that these (and many other) LU/LO/NR interchange stations still need both yellow AND pink validators on the platforms, as pax may still need to touch in having arrived on a NR paper ticket from outside the zones. I'm sure someone posted last year that the platform validators at West Brompton had been changed to Pink, yet still functioned as Yellow at the same time as well. * I can see that working if the Oyster card has't been touched IN before, but how can the system decide whether to treat a subsequent touch (having started elsewhere) as either interchange or a touch OUT correctly? Hope that makes sense... My understanding is that the Pink interchange validators are exactly the same as yellow for starting and ending journeys, but also act to validate an interchange when there might be alternative routes. In other words, they will mark a journey as having been ended (and the relevant fare charged), unless a later OUT validation happens at another location. Touching OUT at the second spot calculates the correct fare 'via' the first validator and either deducts or adds the relevant amount to the balance. So without the second validation, you have touched OUT normally. |
best way to get around london for 3&half days
"Mizter T" wrote
"John Salmon" wrote: "MIG" wrote And there's never been any proper reason for refusing to put day travelcards on Oyster anyway. It's extra money up front, and the punter still buys into the Oyster system. Instead of charging an uncapped maximum single fare for unresolved journeys, the system could charge a day travelcard instead, and let the punter use it as such thereafter. That sounds like a very good idea. Is there any technical reason why it can't be done? Why's it a good idea? There's absolutely no need or calling for it (esp. now that PAYG is acceptable on NR) - if you want a Day Travelcard, you get a Day Travelcard. Why totally muddy the waters by offering it on Oyster, especially now. Prior to this month I had been using Day Travelcards during most of my visits to London, but I hoped and believed that this would no longer be necessary now that all NR lines within the zones are included within the validity of Oyster PAYG. Unfortunately it is now clear that the behaviour of Oyster PAYG at OSIs is seriously screwing things up for quite a few of the regular posters on here and on uk.r. I think both MIG and I are looking for a solution that gets round this problem. The suggestion that Day Travelcards might be made capable of being put on Oyster seems to be one such way. Another would be to provide some means of definitively ending a journey at a location classed as an OSI, i.e. a means of preventing the system from linking journeys when the customer doesn't want this to happen. I am rather surprised that an apparent advocate of Oyster should now be seriously suggesting that some categories of passenger should need to take the seemingly retrograde step of reverting to the use of paper Day Travelcards. |
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