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London Travelwatch on OEPs
I hadn't noticed this. Not mincing words.
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700 ________________________________________ "Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be scrapped. Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on the railway. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are the reverse of useful and convenient.” Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for passengers. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it should be dumped as soon as possible.”" |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote: I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700 ________________________________________ "Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be scrapped. Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on the railway. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are the reverse of useful and convenient.” Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for passengers. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it should be dumped as soon as possible.”" Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an "impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it. Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties... |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote: I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700 ________________________________________ "Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be scrapped. Oyster Extension Permits, which were introduced by train companies last week when Oyster Pay As You Go became available on national rail services (successfully), are needed every time a passenger with a zonal ticket on an Oystercard travels outside of their normal zones on the railway. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch, said: “We are concerned that passengers will be liable for penalty fares or fines as the permits are difficult to understand and difficult to buy. Oyster PAYG is a useful, convenient way of getting around London, but these permits are the reverse of useful and convenient.” Oyster Extension Permits have been hard for passengers to buy at ticket machines, owing to technical problems for some train operators and London TravelWatch has heard reports that not all train companies are even enforcing them as they are so utterly bewildering for passengers. Sharon Grant, Chair, London TravelWatch said: “The Oyster Extension Permit was a bad idea which is unnecessarily complicated, and it should be dumped as soon as possible.”" Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an "impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it. Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties... I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or Southern. On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. It'll be those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ... I think LM is a good bet for experimentation. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote: On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote: I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700 ________________________________________ "Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be scrapped. [snip rest of LTW press release] Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an "impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it. Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties... I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or Southern. *On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. *It'll be those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ... I think LM is a good bet for experimentation. I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that! (I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre- PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly comparable.) Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at Euston. Also OEPs are not required for travel on the parallel London Overground DC line service (LO doesn't count as NR for OEP and other fare purposes), so I have my doubts as to whether OEPs are really a requirement on this line, and maybe its just easier to say they are for purposes of presenting a consistent picture across all NR lines in London. And even if they are technically required, I rather suspect that requirement might not be enforced in reality. Oh, and I don't think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they? |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:33:18 -0800 (PST),
Mizter T wrote: Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at Euston. Also OEPs are not required for travel on the parallel London Overground DC line service (LO doesn't count as NR for OEP and other fare purposes), so I have my doubts as to whether OEPs are really a requirement on this line, and maybe its just easier to say they are for purposes of presenting a consistent picture across all NR lines in London. And even if they are technically required, I rather suspect that requirement might not be enforced in reality. Oh, and I don't think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they? I'm pretty sure LM guards still don't have the ability to check oyster cards at all so they can't even check whether PAYG is correctly touched in or not, let alone whether there is an OEP present on a oyster season ticket. (As an aside I recently went back to a Gold Card for Watford Junction-Euston instead of using PAYG. In the first week I managed to twice use my oyster card - once "correctly" at both ends and a second time when leaving the platform 16 at Euston where the "beep, beep" of people touching their cards was irresistable and I had to join in. - There would have been a third case about a month later except that after the first two I moved my oyster card to my wallet instead of with my season ticket. TfL have refunded the money after I sent them a photocopy of my season ticket.) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://www.woodall.me.uk/ |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote: On 5 Feb, 12:50, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 12:15*pm, MIG wrote: I hadn't noticed this. *Not mincing words. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=700 ________________________________________ "Scrap OEPs now, says watchdog London TravelWatch has called for the Oyster Extension Permits to be scrapped. [snip rest of LTW press release] Yeah, saw that a few weeks ago - I think I'd read about Ms Grant's comments elsewhere, so went to the LTW website so as to hear it from the horse's mouth. Note also Peter Hendy's objection to the OEP system as expressed in the latest TfL Board papers, describing it as an "impediment to travel" and stating that TfL does not support it. Given the fact that OEPs are not readily available from a great many NR stations, I don't think any PFs that might be issued to anyone travelling from said stations without an OEP would stand up to a moment's scrutiny, so much so that I wonder if the PF would even be issued in the first place. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to get an OEP if it's not available from my starting station (not sure whether I'd be even bothered enough to descend into the bowels of London Bridge to get an OEP from the Tube station ticket machines). Of course putting this to the test might be hard, as it would involve actually encountering someone doing revenue protection duties... I can't remember the last time I encountered such a thing on SET or Southern. *On SWT sometimes and on LM nearly every time. *It'll be those people doing a job ... think it begins with "g" ... I think LM is a good bet for experimentation. I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that! (I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre- PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly comparable.) Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central. Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been upgraded to issue OEPs. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
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London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 16:26, wrote:
In article , (Mizter T) wrote: I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an OEP and starts at an NR station. The majority I'd have thought, given that from Oyster's point of view, the journey starts where you last touched in. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote: [big snip] I think LM is a good bet for experimentation. I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that! (I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre- PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly comparable.) Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central. Shoots, yes, of course, how could I forget poor old Bushey! Is the station gated now? It wasn't a year or so ago. Wembley Central only half counts in my book as hardly any LM trains stop there (also the platforms they stop at are not within the gated area). Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been upgraded to issue OEPs. Do they handle Oyster at all? |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 17:10, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: On 5 Feb, 15:33, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 2:09*pm, MIG wrote: [big snip] I think LM is a good bet for experimentation. I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I suppose one argument that the TOCs could deploy would be that if an OEP wasn't available (ticket machine and ticket office couldn't issue them), *but* the ticket office was open, then the pax should buy a standard paper extension ticket instead - though this would be a bit more expensive than the equivalent (and automatically deducted) Oyster PAYG fare for the extension. Though I think I'd still say stuff that! (I dare say you might suggest some parallels with the old days pre- PAYG expansion w.r.t. paper Travelcards and pricey paper ticket extension fares, though I don't think the situations are directly comparable.) Re LM and experimentation - I'm not so sure it would be a good venue for testing the waters actually, because Oyster PAYG was fully available on LM between Euston, H&W and Watford Junction before the great PAYG expansion of January gone and they obviously didn't have any requirement for an OEP type arrangement back then. Plus all three stations are gated too, though yes, LM use ungated platforms at Five.... remember Bushey and Wembley Central. Shoots, yes, of course, how could I forget poor old Bushey! Is the station gated now? It wasn't a year or so ago. Wembley Central only half counts in my book as hardly any LM trains stop there (also the platforms they stop at are not within the gated area). Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been upgraded to issue OEPs. Do they handle Oyster at all? The machines at Euston have Oyster pads ... are they LO or LM though? |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote: (Mizter T) wrote: I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an OEP and starts at an NR station. Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt! Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping. Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3 Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they want to head into town. Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river. I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion examples. (I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP business?) |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 5:12*pm, MIG wrote: On 5 Feb, 17:10, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been upgraded to issue OEPs. Do they handle Oyster at all? The machines at Euston have Oyster pads ... are they LO or LM though? LM. In which case I think we might be able to say that the Scheidt & Bachmann ticket machines which are equipped to 'do' Oyster nonetheless can't 'do' OEPs for whatever reason - Southeastern has S&B machines, and whilst they too do Oyster they don't do OEPs (must confess that I haven't presented one with an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard on it yet, so I suppose it could be an option that's hidden, but I have my doubts it would work like that). Just wondering if the rule is that Shere ticket machines (such as Southern) do OEPs, S&B don't (yet)? (If so, then it's also interesting that LO have got some of both types, I think.) |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message
, Mizter T writes The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). Our local convenience store is an Oyster Stop, and I've frequently seen people popping in to check their PAYG balance - sometimes they purchase a top-up, but often they just check it and leave. As you say, it's something that Oyster retailers have come to expect. Out of devilment, I asked the shop owner if he'd heard of an OEP - "Oh yes, bloody useless things" was the reply! But he says that he gets one or two requests a day for them, even though he's not particularly near a station. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
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London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 5:33*pm, Paul Terry wrote: Mizter T wrote: The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). Our local convenience store is an Oyster Stop, and I've frequently seen people popping in to check their PAYG balance - sometimes they purchase a top-up, but often they just check it and leave. As you say, it's something that Oyster retailers have come to expect. Yeah. It was easier when they still had the black or turquoise machines that also printed tickets (Day Travelcards and the like), as they had a customer facing display... [searches for image] ...like this: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/resources/corp...ter-card-3.jpg Now the new "Pearl" devices seem to plug into existing POS kit (unsure of the details), and they don't have any customer facing display, so the retailer does now have to verbally communicate to the the (potential) customer what their balance/ pass expiry date is. Out of devilment, I asked the shop owner if he'd heard of an OEP - "Oh yes, bloody useless things" was the reply! But he says that he gets one or two requests a day for them, even though he's not particularly near a station. Ha! I haven't asked my local shopkeepers about them yet, I'll do so if there's a convenient moment. I guess those one or two people might be setting out on a bus to get to a station. Or maybe they're just testing the water! |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Feb 5, 6:21*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:22:38 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: (I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP business?) I could always adapt the quiz that has been used in LUL as a "tester" for staff to see if they understood all of the various issues relating to Oyster on NR. *It covers a wide range of issues - I did it again today and still only managed 11 out of 12! *I should really have got 12.. Might be fun to see how well people on the group understand the various concepts. Well, I'm game, I'm sure others are too. I'm dead curious to know what it was that tripped you up... but don't tell us just that if you're going to quiz us! (I'm trying to think of obscure scenarios! A few obscure-ish ones come to mind...) |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message
, Mizter T writes On Feb 5, 5:33*pm, Paul Terry wrote: Out of devilment, I asked the shop owner if he'd heard of an OEP - "Oh yes, bloody useless things" was the reply! But he says that he gets one or two requests a day for them, even though he's not particularly near a station. Ha! I haven't asked my local shopkeepers about them yet, I'll do so if there's a convenient moment. I guess those one or two people might be setting out on a bus to get to a station. Almost certainly for the first part of their journey. The shop is next to a stop with a fairly intensive bus service. At a guess, nearly half of the passengers take a short ride to pick up SWT at Barnes (or possibly Putney). Most of the rest transfer to LU at Hammersmith. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message , Paul Corfield
writes stalker mode Upper Richmond Road? stalker mode Congrats :) Although your observation has reminded me that quite a few people from the same Oyster Stop take the alternative 209 service to Hammersmith from Avondale Road (every 4 minutes in the rush hour, and every 6 minutes otherwise) which is only a short walk away. We may not have a tube station here, but the bus services these days are really superlative. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
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London Travelwatch on OEPs
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London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 17:31, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 5:12*pm, MIG wrote: On 5 Feb, 17:10, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been upgraded to issue OEPs. Do they handle Oyster at all? The machines at Euston have Oyster pads ... are they LO or LM though? LM. In which case I think we might be able to say that the Scheidt & Bachmann ticket machines which are equipped to 'do' Oyster nonetheless can't 'do' OEPs for whatever reason - Southeastern has S&B machines, and whilst they too do Oyster they don't do OEPs (must confess that I haven't presented one with an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard on it yet, so I suppose it could be an option that's hidden, but I have my doubts it would work like that). Yes, I've looked since and they are LM. It occurs to me that there wouldn't be any LM stations where Oyster is valid that wouldn't also be LO stations. Just wondering if the rule is that Shere ticket machines (such as Southern) do OEPs, S&B don't (yet)? (If so, then it's also interesting that LO have got some of both types, I think.) |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote: (Mizter T) wrote: I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an OEP and starts at an NR station. Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt! Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping. Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3 Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they want to head into town. Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river. I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion examples. Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the whole journey? The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing Cross heading for Slade Green. You need the OEP if gripped between Greenwich and Slade Green. The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
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London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message
, MIG writes On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote: Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river. Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the whole journey? That's exactly what a lot of people would assume, because that is how things work when using a travelcard + PAYG on TfL. In fact, your comment goes to the very heart of the confusion about OEPs. Unlike TfL, almost all of whose stations are gated, the TOCs weren't willing to take the revenue risk of people who travel beyond their zones simply not touching out at one of their many ungated stations, and thus not paying anything for travelling out of zone. Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example) deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2 travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4. The theory is that if you are gripped on NR while travelling out of zone without an OEP, you will be charged a penalty fare. The OEP acts as evidence that money has already been deducted for travelling out of zone when you touched in at Waterloo (*). As has been said, there is considerable doubt that an appeal would find such a penalty charge fair or even legal, given that a maximum cash fare has already been paid at the start of the journey. It has been said (I think by Caroline Pidgeon at Mayor's Questions) that some TOCs are deliberately not issuing penalty fares in these circumstances in order to avoid the courts declaring the entire OEP system invalid. (* If you change your mind and get out at Putney, in Zone 2, the cash fare is reimbursed when you touch out, and the OEP stays on the Oyster for when you next want to travel out of zone). -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote: (Mizter T) wrote: I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling, so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster products, given the number of people it does bring through the door). I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an OEP and starts at an NR station. Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt! Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping. Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3 Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they want to head into town. Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river. I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion examples. (I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP business?) My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled there from Chingford by bus). Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard. When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train. So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other. I chickened out and jumped on the District Line... |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message
, Railist writes My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled there from Chingford by bus). Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard. When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train. So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other. No. You don't need an OEP when travelling back into your zones - the fare is handled by Oyster in the normal way (PAYG for the first bit and travelcard for the rest). You only need an OEP when travelling OUT of your zones by NR. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 6 Feb, 09:50, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Railist writes My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled there from Chingford by bus). Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard. When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train. So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other. No. You don't need an OEP when travelling back into your zones - the fare is handled by Oyster in the normal way (PAYG for the first bit and travelcard for the rest). You only need an OEP when travelling OUT of your zones by NR. -- Paul Terry Oh right! That's good to know. I now have z1-5 so less likely to need OEP... |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:33:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote: Oh, and I don't think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they? I have never seen them do anything to a ticketless passenger other than sell them a ticket. So far as I can tell, PFs only get issued by gateline staff on LM. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 23:48, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:38:17 -0800 (PST), MIG wrote: On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote: Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping. Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3 Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they want to head into town. Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river. I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion examples. Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the whole journey? Eh? *In every example that Mizter T as outlined you commence in your Travelcard zones, are using a NR service, and arrive at an out of zonal validity destination on a NR service. *That means an OEP is needed. *On the return leg where you commence outside the zones then an OEP is *not* required. You are right, and I realised afterwards, that in Mizter T's examples you'd be touching in at a boundary station where the travelcard was valid. My focus was on the fact that it wouldn't be necessary to be doing something like that for the journey to start at an NR station. Unless the journey involved a change somewhere like Stratford or Barking, you'd nearly always be starting the OEP-needing journey at an NR station. The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing Cross heading for Slade Green. *You need the OEP if gripped between Greenwich and Slade Green. The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station. And that example is no different to those used by Mizter T except you're starting in Zone 1. I think I need to set my little Oyster on NR quiz! -- Paul C- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On 5 Feb, 23:11, wrote:
In article , (MIG) wrote: Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the whole journey? Good point. Except that I was forgetting that the travelcard is still valid at the point of touching in, so the OEP still needed. It's just not as common as starting the journey at a London Terminal. The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing Cross heading for Slade Green. *You need the OEP if gripped between Greenwich and Slade Green. The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station. But has an adjacent underground station. Many users will approach it such that calling at a tube station won't be a major inconvenience. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message , Paul Corfield
writes On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:01:24 +0000, Paul Terry wrote: Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example) deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2 travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4. No - *if* an OEP is set before travel in this example then a "mixed travel" entry charge being deducted. This is less than the maximum cash fare - being £4.20 peak and £3.40 off peak. How does that square with the statement in the TfL staff briefing that... "Passengers must remember to touch out when they have an Oyster Extension Permit on their card. If they do not, they will be charged a maximum Oyster fare." ? And the statement on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx about PAYG that ... "When you touch in an entry charge of up to £6.50 will be deducted from your Oyster card." ? Does having an OEP reduce the entry charge to the figures you quote above? And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey is likely to be entirely on NR? Sorry for pedantry but trying to get the terminology right is important on such a complicated issue. No problem - you are right to do so. But I get the feeling that there is still a huge lack of clarity about the operation of OEPs. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Paul Corfield writes On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:01:24 +0000, Paul Terry wrote: Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example) deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2 travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4. No - *if* an OEP is set before travel in this example then a "mixed travel" entry charge being deducted. This is less than the maximum cash fare - being £4.20 peak and £3.40 off peak. How does that square with the statement in the TfL staff briefing that... "Passengers must remember to touch out when they have an Oyster Extension Permit on their card. If they do not, they will be charged a maximum Oyster fare." ? And the statement on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx about PAYG that ... "When you touch in an entry charge of up to £6.50 will be deducted from your Oyster card." ? Does having an OEP reduce the entry charge to the figures you quote above? And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey is likely to be entirely on NR? I think the reasoning is that all travelcard seasons cover at least 2 zones. Therefore the maximum you can pay as an extension is 4 zones including Z1, which is £4.20/£3.40 (ignoring trips to Amersham etc). Peter Smyth |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message , Peter Smyth
writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey is likely to be entirely on NR? I think the reasoning is that all travelcard seasons cover at least 2 zones. Therefore the maximum you can pay as an extension is 4 zones including Z1, which is £4.20/£3.40 (ignoring trips to Amersham etc). Ah, that would make sense. Thanks. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message , Paul Corfield
writes Yes and note the words "up to". There are all sorts of different charges depending on what zone you are in, what time of day it is and whether an OEP is present. TfL do not publish all of these charges on the web hence the "up to" statement. I am able to see other info which is how I know the other charges exist. Ah, thanks. -- Paul Terry |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Railist wrote:
My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled there from Chingford by bus). Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard. When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train. So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other. I chickened out and jumped on the District Line... I hadn't thought about this. So OEPs are required even on interavailable routes? What was the situation before - could you use PAYG on those? ISTR thinking that i could use PAYG between King's Cross and Finsbury Park on the trains; was i wrong? tom -- Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message of Fri, 5 Feb
2010 18:21:45 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield writes On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:22:38 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: (I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP business?) I could always adapt the quiz that has been used in LUL as a "tester" for staff to see if they understood all of the various issues relating to Oyster on NR. It covers a wide range of issues - I did it again today and still only managed 11 out of 12! I should really have got 12. Might be fun to see how well people on the group understand the various concepts. Paul, Please, can I or we see it? What process is used to ensure that staff-testing quizzes are correct and kept so when conditions change? e.g. Oyster deposits and comparison with Day Travelcards. For me, Auto top-up PAYG is very convenient. It avoids the spending commitment of a Travelcard. However, it is fraught with the risk of maximum fares on a touching failure. OTOH, it is physically easier to use than a paper Travelcard. The removal of the £0.50 daily sweetener means I try to buy a Travelcard for any day when I expect to do more than 3 underground journeys. (I HATE the lack (or incoherence) of ticketing information since January 2. London Travelwatch was presented with a fait accompli on the decision not to publish new editions of Your Guide to Tickets and Fares. There is no link to Oyster on http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930 ..aspx. There ARE links from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/default.aspx . AFAIK, TfL took the decision quietly. No press release or other information. I suspect it was a good cost-saving decision, but the lack of publicity makes me wonder.) -- Walter Briscoe |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
In message of Sat, 6 Feb
2010 14:53:17 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield writes On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 13:55:08 +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote: In message of Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:21:45 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield writes [snip] I could always adapt the quiz that has been used in LUL as a "tester" for staff to see if they understood all of the various issues relating to Oyster on NR. It covers a wide range of issues - I did it again today and still only managed 11 out of 12! I should really have got 12. Might be fun to see how well people on the group understand the various concepts. Paul, Please, can I or we see it? I'm not going to publish it. I will take the basic concepts and devise a suitable "quiz" for people to have a go it if they want to. I'll even work out how well people did. Anyone here should be able to get to the answers using the TfL web pages or from past postings on this group. I'm not going to use the FOI Act to try to acquire the information. [snip] The issue about the fares leaflets has been discussed before. There are also a load of questions from Assembly Members in the most recent Mayor's Question Time on 27th Jan 2010. The responses are on the relevant part of the Mayor's website. I confess failure. I found details of the meeting at http://www.london. gov.uk/assembly/assemmtgs/2010/mqtjan27/agenda.jsp. There I was pointed to http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/assemmtgs/2010 /mqtjan27/item06.pdf. Questions 158 and 228 were all I found that was relevant. I did not find answers. I will break off to get to important matters at TW1 1DZ where the start was delayed for 4 minutes. -- Walter Briscoe |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
Paul Corfield wrote
I'm not going to publish it. I will take the basic concepts and devise a suitable "quiz" for people to have a go it if they want to. I'll even work out how well people did. Anyone here should be able to get to the answers using the TfL web pages or from past postings on this group. It would be interesting to see if it can be answered using only the information on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card -- Mike D |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
Grab these fckers while you can... In the future OEPs are gonna be the
rarest of all rare tickets! Lump in! |
London Travelwatch on OEPs
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