On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate exit.
I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered Oystercard.
On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email "... Due to an
operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of £11.80.
This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.
--
Walter Briscoe

On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:
On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate exit.
I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered Oystercard.
On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email "... Due to an
operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 11.80.
This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

In message
..com of Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:44:00 in uk.transport.london, MIG
writes
On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:
On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate exit.
I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered Oystercard.
On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email "... Due to an
operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 11.80.
This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

I agree I showed a failure that has been addressed less frequently.
It is also inexcusable because there is no automatic mechanism for
charging the correct fare to an unregistered card.

It is harder to demonstrate the other sort of failure.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/12421.aspx (obscurely)
documents those time limits. You can also get there by navigating
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/, "Tickets", "What is Oyster?", "Pay as you go"
and search for "Maximum journey times".

It is harder to construct a charging failure involving an OSI without
doing something "perverse" since the Within Zone 1 or 2 limit was upped
to 90 minutes.

I suppose I could do something like
Monument Mansion House ~5
Mansion House LU London Blackfriars NR 40 For duration of Blackfriars LU closure.
Blackfriars Elephant & Castle ~ 10
Elephant & Castle NR Elephant & Castle LU 20
Elephant & Castle London Bridge 10
London Bridge LU London Bridge NR 40 NR gateline not Pre Pay enabled.
London Bridge (NR) St Pancras International ~20
St Pancras International NR King's Cross St. Pancras Tube LU 20
Kings Cross St.Pancras Euston ~5
Euston LU Euston Square LU 20
Euston Square Paddington (H&C) Line ~10
I don't have a figure for the OSI between the Paddington LU stations.
Paddington Temple ~25

That is more than 3 hours within zone 1.
No station is visited more than once and the start & end are different.

(The OSI times come from FOIa information, I got on 14 October 2009.)
--
Walter Briscoe

On Feb 28, 8:32*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate exit.
I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered Oystercard.
On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email "... Due to an
operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 11.80.
This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

Erm... I'm a bit uncertain as to the 'logic behind that failure', for
want of a better way of describing it, but I dare say the root of it
is the system freaking out about a journey that starts and ends at the
same place, i.e. Moorgate, given that Euston to Euston Square is an
OSI hence the journey would have

The 'auto-correct' element is not new however - I experienced it in
April of last year, and others have also commented on it too - the
text of the email being suitably ambiguous from TfL's point-of-view
("... Due to an operational issue...").

I wouldn't automatically assume that non-registered cards would also
be excluded from this - someone who knew of which they spoke commented
on here a while back about how refunds for bus fares were doled out to
Oyster card holders whilst Shepherd's Bush Central line station was
closed (so pax used local buses to get to and from Holland Park) -
however that's an easy case as they refunds could be sent to Holland
Park tube station for pick-up.

That said it's notable that the publicity surrounding the partial
closure of the NLL suggests something similar will happen this time
around as well (with no mention of it being restricted to registered
card holders only) - i.e. there will be some kind of attempt to refund
fares when a passenger has to travel via zone 1 when previously they'd
travel via the NLL and avoid z1 - though again I suppose that
identifying a suitable station to send the refund to for pick-up
purposes might well be easier.

On Feb 28, 9:44 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:

On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate exit.
I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered Oystercard.
On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email "... Due to an
operational issue, we calculate that you are due a refund of 11.80.
This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

See my reply downthread - my suspicion is this is some sort of problem
with Moorgate being the starting and finishing station to the overall
journey. It's an odd one though. Do note that I'm not saying this to
excuse what's gone on, with these problems I'm just trying to seek to
understand what has actually happened. But I don't think it's a case
of the system being configured to charge the wrong fares per se.


So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

I don't think the last paragraph is an accurate reflection of the
actual mechanism at play - the common issue is that separate journeys
are considered to be one continuing journey from the Oyster system
POV, and the problem occurs when that complete journey is not resolved
because it times out - in other words saying that several *resolved*
journeys are being strung together to make an unresolved/unstarted
journey is not accurate (IMO). That's not to say the passenger was
doing anything wrong as they were simply following the instructions
for touching-in and out.

I do hope that such problems can be addressed somehow - I dunno how
much flexibility there is to change things, and how much of the
underlying infrastructure w.r.t. the Oyster system is set in stone.

All I will say is that such problems seem rather more likely to occur
to people who are out for a 'joy ride' (or however you want to
describe it). Pretty much everyone I know uses the public transport
system to get from A-to-B - I'm the exception!

MIG wrote

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting
journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

But we have already had a automatic refund reported on this NG (2 days
after the poster had called the helpline IIRC).

Thus post-processing may be a regular item, especially when the current
gate logic cannot detect an overcharge.

--
Mike D

On Feb 28, 7:36*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

MIG wrote

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting
journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

But we have already had a automatic refund reported on this NG (2 days
after the poster had called the helpline IIRC).

Thus post-processing may be a regular item, especially when the current
gate logic cannot detect an overcharge.

See my comment downthread - I had it happen to me in April '09.

(FWIW, I travelled with someone from Southwark station to Stratford on
the Jubilee line, passed through the 'internal gateline' outside the
Jubilee platforms, went with them up to the Great Eastern platform and
saw them off on their train, then went back through the 'internal
gateline' back to Southwark station. I was uncertain as to whether
passing the 'internal gateline' would end my first journey and restart
my second - I thought it might well not, and indeed it didn't, as the
internal gateline basically appeared to be set up in 'interchange
mode' just like all the standalone validators at Stratford station
that are within the fare-paid area, i.e. the main gateline. But before
I got round to asking for my dosh back, the email came through. N.B.
the 'internal gateline' at Stratford appears to have been
decommissioned now.)

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Feb 28, 9:44 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:

On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate
exit. I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered
Oystercard. On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email
"... Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a
refund of 11.80. This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on 0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

See my reply downthread - my suspicion is this is some sort of problem
with Moorgate being the starting and finishing station to the overall
journey. It's an odd one though. Do note that I'm not saying this to
excuse what's gone on, with these problems I'm just trying to seek to
understand what has actually happened. But I don't think it's a case
of the system being configured to charge the wrong fares per se.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

I don't think the last paragraph is an accurate reflection of the
actual mechanism at play - the common issue is that separate journeys
are considered to be one continuing journey from the Oyster system
POV, and the problem occurs when that complete journey is not resolved
because it times out - in other words saying that several *resolved*
journeys are being strung together to make an unresolved/unstarted
journey is not accurate (IMO). That's not to say the passenger was
doing anything wrong as they were simply following the instructions
for touching-in and out.

I do hope that such problems can be addressed somehow - I dunno how
much flexibility there is to change things, and how much of the
underlying infrastructure w.r.t. the Oyster system is set in stone.

All I will say is that such problems seem rather more likely to
occur
to people who are out for a 'joy ride' (or however you want to
describe it). Pretty much everyone I know uses the public transport
system to get from A-to-B - I'm the exception!

Surely the first thing the system should do if a journey involving an OSI
times out is to check if undoing the OSI assumption makes the journey
appear logical? In the OP's example the clue is that what it thinks is one
journey starts and ends at the same station!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Feb 28, 9:43*pm, wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:44 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:

On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43.
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate
exit. I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered
Oystercard. On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email
"... Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a
refund of 11.80. This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on
0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

See my reply downthread - my suspicion is this is some sort of problem
with Moorgate being the starting and finishing station to the overall
journey. It's an odd one though. Do note that I'm not saying this to
excuse what's gone on, with these problems I'm just trying to seek to
understand what has actually happened. But I don't think it's a case
of the system being configured to charge the wrong fares per se.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

I don't think the last paragraph is an accurate reflection of the
actual mechanism at play - the common issue is that separate journeys
are considered to be one continuing journey from the Oyster system
POV, and the problem occurs when that complete journey is not resolved
because it times out - in other words saying that several *resolved*
journeys are being strung together to make an unresolved/unstarted
journey is not accurate (IMO). That's not to say the passenger was
doing anything wrong as they were simply following the instructions
for touching-in and out.

I do hope that such problems can be addressed somehow - I dunno
how much flexibility there is to change things, and how much of
the underlying infrastructure w.r.t. the Oyster system is set in stone.

All I will say is that such problems seem rather more likely to
occur to people who are out for a 'joy ride' (or however you want
to describe it). Pretty much everyone I know uses the public
transport system to get from A-to-B - I'm the exception!

Surely the first thing the system should do if a journey involving an OSI
times out is to check if undoing the OSI assumption makes the journey
appear logical? In the OP's example the clue is that what it thinks is one
journey starts and ends at the same station!

I'm not sure the system architecture has the capacity to untangle
things like that - ultimately though I dunno, I'm just an observer.

On 28 Feb, 22:47, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:43*pm, wrote:





(Mizter T) wrote:
On Feb 28, 9:44 am, MIG wrote:

On 28 Feb, 08:32, Walter Briscoe wrote:

On 24/02/10, I entered Moorgate at 16:30 and left Euston at 16:43..
I entered Euston Square at 16:49 and left Moorgate at 17:10.
I was charged 5.80 for Euston Square entry and 6.00 for Moorgate
exit. I had already capped travel in Z1-2 on my registered
Oystercard. On 28 February 2010 03:22:49, TfL sent me an email
"... Due to an operational issue, we calculate that you are due a
refund of 11.80. This is now ready for pick-up at Moorgate. ..."
I am a little impressed.
Weekend mornings are good times for Oyster help on
0845 330 9876.
I was unable to get an explanation for the systemic failure.

This isn't the typical OSI problem that people have talked about
though, is it?

It just looks like the system was charging completely the wrong fares
to everyone and they couldn't miss it.

See my reply downthread - my suspicion is this is some sort of problem
with Moorgate being the starting and finishing station to the overall
journey. It's an odd one though. Do note that I'm not saying this to
excuse what's gone on, with these problems I'm just trying to seek to
understand what has actually happened. But I don't think it's a case
of the system being configured to charge the wrong fares per se.

So I don't infer that the inexcusable situation where people are
repeatedly getting overcharged, because the system strings separate
resolved journeys into one and then decides that the resulting journey
is too long and splits it into unresolved/unstarted journeys, is
likely to be addressed in such a helpful way.

I don't think the last paragraph is an accurate reflection of the
actual mechanism at play - the common issue is that separate journeys
are considered to be one continuing journey from the Oyster system
POV, and the problem occurs when that complete journey is not resolved
because it times out - in other words saying that several *resolved*
journeys are being strung together to make an unresolved/unstarted
journey is not accurate (IMO). That's not to say the passenger was
doing anything wrong as they were simply following the instructions
for touching-in and out.

I do hope that such problems can be addressed somehow - I dunno
how much flexibility there is to change things, and how much of
the underlying infrastructure w.r.t. the Oyster system is set in stone.

All I will say is that such problems seem rather more likely to
occur to people who are out for a 'joy ride' (or however you want
to describe it). Pretty much everyone I know uses the public
transport system to get from A-to-B - I'm the exception!

Surely the first thing the system should do if a journey involving an OSI
times out is to check if undoing the OSI assumption makes the journey
appear logical? In the OP's example the clue is that what it thinks is one
journey starts and ends at the same station!

I'm not sure the system architecture has the capacity to untangle
things like that - ultimately though I dunno, I'm just an observer.

The more I think about it, the more the excuses don't wash. Think
about what actually happens.

A punter makes a number of journeys, always touching in and out
according to the rules, all journeys resolved. The system "knows"
exactly where the punter has been the whole time. All touches are
recorded.

Then the system actively intervenes and deems the whole series of
journeys to be one journey.

Then the system actively intervenes again and splits that one journey
into two unstarted/unresolved journeys.

So, armed with a full record of the punter's entirely legitimate
touchings in and out and there being nothing unresolved, the system
disregards this and actively resets the punter's status to one of
being liable for extra cash, which is automatically extracted.

That might excused as bad programming for a few days, but to continue
operating that way is fraud.