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Extended East London Line opens fully today
....but you knew that already.`
Well - phase 1a of the ELLX opens tomorrow - that's through running south of New Cross Gate, all stations to West Croydon and Crystal Palace. The, er, extension of the extension from Dalston Jn on to Highbury & Islington comes a bit later... and the further extension from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction (via Peckham etc) comes later still. Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Thameslink Mark II it might not be but I suggest that would be to miss the point - it's a new local link for London, linking localities in the south east and east of London along with the eastern fringe of the City, and linking much more through new interchange opportunities, at Canada Water, at Whitechapel, at New Cross NX Gate (and stations south thereof), at Dalston (and in a year at High & I), and with local buses all over the shop. Kudos to the planners for, well, having the vision to plan it, and dare I say kudos to the newt king for actually making that vision happen. It's not a Grand Projet, but is perhaps all the more audacious for that. More info (from TfL): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/15360.aspx Limited-ish number of free tickets available for travel on the ELL today (Sunday 23 May) - see: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/15514.aspx |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 22, 4:38*pm, Mizter T wrote:
...but you knew that already.` Well - phase 1a of the ELLX opens tomorrow - that's through running south of New Cross Gate, all stations to West Croydon and Crystal Palace. The, er, extension of the extension from Dalston Jn on to Highbury & Islington comes a bit later... and the further extension from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction (via Peckham etc) comes later still. Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Thameslink Mark II it might not be but I suggest that would be to miss the point - it's a new local link for London, linking localities in the south east and east of London along with the eastern fringe of the City, and linking much more through new interchange opportunities, at Canada Water, at Whitechapel, at New Cross NX Gate (and stations south thereof), at Dalston (and in a year at High & I), and with local buses all over the shop. Kudos to the planners for, well, having the vision to plan it, and dare I say kudos to the newt king for actually making that vision happen. It's not a Grand Projet, but is perhaps all the more audacious for that. More info (from TfL):http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/15360.aspx Limited-ish number of free tickets available for travel on the ELL today (Sunday 23 May) - see:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/15514.aspx Thank you for posting. I agree with every word you say. When this idea was first proposed I questioned why both the NLL and ELL could not be routed into Liverpool Street. This would have given access to the city from a number of orbital locations. However, since Liverpool Street lacks sufficient capacity, this is the next best alternative. When folks posted the first pictures of the new stations, on Flickr etc., I thought that they looked cold and utilitarian. But, as the Overground roundels and other signage has been added the buildings have taken on the familiar TfL look. Given time I think the stations will become part of the landscape. Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. I hope in time we will see further development. I look forward to visiting London and checking out the new system for myself. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. It
actually came at 0649. The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first trip. I had planned to change at Surrey Quays so I could go back to Crystal Palace but I missed the connection due to the delay so I went to Whitechapel instead. I then picked up a free ticket at Whitechapel ticket office. It came in an Overground branded wallet with a commemorative ticket on the right and a regular Zones 1 to 6 Day Travelcard on the left. So the free ticket isn't just for the East London Line! |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming
that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself later... |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 22 May 2010 23:50:57 -0700 (PDT), Richard Adamfi wrote: I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. It actually came at 0649. Well I was at Dalston at about 0635 but that's just how the buses worked out to get me there before 0656. The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first trip. Unfortunately the station did not open until 0707 when a driver came up from his train to find the staff. The first train therefore had been and gone. He released the door from the inside. The station staff were outside with the passengers waiting for a key to turn up. The platform displays were showing the wrong train on the wrong platform for some reason. Needless to say there was no opportunity for the staff to hand out the freebies as they'd only just made it into the station. All I can say is "not very good". Thankfully there was only a handful of people around that early in the day at Dalston. They didn't preview at this sort of time last weekend then? A shame because one of the major selling points of LO is the staffed stations - perhaps they could allow a few more individuals their own keys... ... The passenger info system there got "its knickers in a twist" about what train was going from what platform but eventually it sorted itself out. It initially thought the ELLX was going from the bay platform which is something of a physical impossibility! AIUI the ELL trains will normally run through P4 to the new reversing siding, then return through P2, but I don't think there is any physical reason why P1 couldn't be used if needed? There was one chap trying to get to Upton Park so I gave him my ELL timetable leaflet as that has the new tube map in it. He was trying to fathom where he was going from what is now an out of date London Connections map. Just goes to show that some journeys have suddenly got easier and cheaper. What I noticed, in relation to route finding, is that they have gone much further than expected with the platform line diagrams. A recent iteration of the LO signs standard showed an 'orange' route diagram, with text at the bottom along the lines of 'National Rail - services to XYZ'. What I noticed at Forest Hill southbound yesterday though was a fairly complete diagram of the various suburban routes, round to Victoria, to Sutton and East Croydon. There are pictures available online - they can be found in the District Dave forum's current thread about LO/SN station signage... I'm quite intrigued by this, because it is basically what I was suggesting was needed in a discussion here a good few months back - I was concerned that the helpful 'Overground Network Mark 1' style route diagrams would be lost to new LO policy... Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1 rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback? I'm fairly sure, yes. It definitely makes sense for pax to see predictable operational procedures, ie LO usually 'straight through' and SN in the bay, but I think during perturbations we could also see SN using the turnback and LO in the bay. I think the central turnback also allows for more than one train length, it will be interesting to see if ECS moves result in two units arriving in multiple... I'm not keen on the approach to timetables in the new ELL leaflet. A very odd mix of frequency guide for the "core" section, first and last trains and then "real" timetable but only from Surrey Quays southwards. If I was commuting from Sydenham to Shoreditch High Street I would find the leaflet almost impenetrable in terms of knowing the times that the trains departed and arrived. If I'm reading that correctly it also seems to wrongly imply a change might be necessary at Surrey Quays - which would deter some potential passengers? Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23 May, 13:04, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2010 12:34:48 +0100, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 22 May 2010 23:50:57 -0700 (PDT), Richard Adamfi wrote: I got the first Overground train from West Croydon due at 0642. *It actually came at 0649. Well I was at Dalston at about 0635 but that's just how the buses worked out to get me there before 0656. The ticket office was closed so I had to use Oyster for the first trip. Unfortunately the station did not open until 0707 when a driver came up from his train to find the staff. The first train therefore had been and gone. He released the door from the inside. *The station staff were outside with the passengers waiting for a key to turn up. *The platform displays were showing the wrong train on the wrong platform for some reason. Needless to say there was no opportunity for the staff to hand out the freebies as they'd only just made it into the station. All I can say is "not very good". *Thankfully there was only a handful of people around that early in the day at Dalston. They didn't preview at this sort of time last weekend then? A shame because one of the major selling points of LO is the staffed stations - perhaps they could allow a few more individuals their own keys... I understand preview service started at 0800 on a Sunday. *I expect lessons will be learnt. *There'll be plenty more as they get more and more passengers. ... The passenger info system there got "its knickers in a twist" about what train was going from what platform but eventually it sorted itself out. It initially thought the ELLX was going from the bay platform which is something of a physical impossibility! AIUI the ELL trains will normally run through P4 to the new reversing siding, then return through P2, but I don't think there is any physical reason why P1 couldn't be used if needed? The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1 rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback? I was also a bit boggled about the "physical impossibility" comment, but I infer that you meant that the train was already in the turnback siding, from which it's then not possible to reach platform 1. Obviously trains from the east turn round in platform 1 all the time. What I noticed at Forest Hill southbound yesterday though was a fairly complete diagram of the various suburban routes, round to Victoria, to Sutton and East Croydon. There are pictures available online - they can be found in the District Dave forum's current thread about LO/SN station signage... I'm quite intrigued by this, because it is basically what I was suggesting was needed in a discussion here a good few months back - I was concerned that the helpful 'Overground Network Mark 1' style route diagrams would be lost to new LO policy... I think I have seen those photos. Anything which keeps things clear for passengers has to be good. *Obviously it is early days but I hope that once the stations have been refurbished with new signs that there will be comprehensive signage that reflects the existence of Southern's services. It would be unacceptable for a new service like the ELL to end up creating a new segregationist mentality on the rail network. * We have to hope that South Eastern at New Cross end up recognising the existence of the ELL service. Talking of which, I was trying to contrive a reason to use the ELL on its first full day (still haven't used it), but I couldn't be arsed when I found that South Eastern isn't serving New Cross today. And off at a tangent as usual ... The Bexleyheath line had overcrowding at rush hour levels today because the trains were only four coaches despite being the first in the bunch of the half-hourly flighted service of all Lewisham and Dartford services via the Tanners Hill single track. I'm not keen on the approach to timetables in the new ELL leaflet. *A very odd mix of frequency guide for the "core" section, first and last trains and then "real" timetable but only from Surrey Quays southwards. If I was commuting from Sydenham to Shoreditch High Street I would find the leaflet almost impenetrable in terms of knowing the times that the trains departed and arrived. *I sincerely hope there is a switch to a full timetable layout for the ELL as happens with all of the other Overground lines. *It would be horrendous if the ELL leaflet is a precursor to the approach to be adopted for the NLL when services become more frequent than every 10 minutes. -- Paul C- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23 May, 18:12, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2010 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 23 May, 13:04, Paul Corfield wrote: The ELL did terminate on P4 and then headed for the turnback. Coming from the west it is not possible to reach platform 1 from what I could see. I'm not terribly familiar with West Croydon's track layout so I guess you're saying they could route a ELL train to terminate in P1 rather than sending it through P4 and the turnback? I was also a bit boggled about the "physical impossibility" comment, but I infer that you meant that the train was already in the turnback siding, from which it's then not possible to reach platform 1. Correct inference. Obviously trains from the east turn round in platform 1 all the time. You have to make allowances for us "north of the river people" for whom the "Southern Region" is still a bit of a mystery. From that fact that you survived, I assume that you had plenty of garlic and silver bullets. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23 May, 12:12, Abigail Brady wrote:
As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself later... I was on the same train. I heard the correction that the train would now depart from platform 3, but did not hear the original announcement. If they're going to reverse four Overground trains in platform 3 each hour without getting in the way of Southern trains running through the station then there are going to have to be some pretty smart turn-arounds. I can't remember which carriage I was in, but it wasn't very full when it left Croydon. A baby in a three-wheeled buggy thing, and a small boy with a bicycle got on at some point, and the train didn't seem to have any problem taking either; there's plenty of standing space. The air-conditioning seemed to be somewhat over-efficient; I prefer the temperature to be somewhat on the low side, but this felt quite cold to me. The return journey later in the day was several degrees warmer. I got out at Dalston, then 38 bus to Victoria to visit Photographica, 24 bus to Hampstead Heath, Rail replacement bus to Dalston, then Overground to Crystal Palace. Looking North at Dalston, the line seems to curve to the West; Is there any provision to be able to re-build the East curve if needed in the future? It doesn't look like it. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Stephen Furley wrote:
On 23 May, 12:12, Abigail Brady wrote: As of my visit to West Croydon at 12.12 the info is still claiming that trains will be departing from platform 1, correcting itself later... I was on the same train. I heard the correction that the train would now depart from platform 3, but did not hear the original announcement. If they're going to reverse four Overground trains in platform 3 each hour without getting in the way of Southern trains running through the station then there are going to have to be some pretty smart turn-arounds. Not so - they'll run through into the turnback siding thoughtfully provided just beyond the station, as reported in Paul C's post elsewhere in the thread. Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23 May, 20:17, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Not so - they'll run through into the turnback siding thoughtfully provided just beyond the station, as reported in Paul C's post elsewhere in the thread. Paul S I see. I arrived at the station just before the train was due to leave, so it was already in the platform, and I didn't see where it had come from. I think this is the first time I have been in West Croydon station since the Wimbledon branch closed. I never need to go towards Sutton, and if heading towards London then East Croydon is quicker. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23 May, 03:14, E27002 wrote:
Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. *The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. *In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. *I hope in time we will see further development. *I look forward to visiting London and checking out the new system for myself. This will make it easier to get onto the DLR from Croydon. Until now it's been very slow, via Lewisham, on either the 75, or Tramlink to Elmers end, and then train. The East London still takes quite a time to get to Shadwell, but at least the journey to most DLR destinations will be shorter from there than from Lewisham. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Stephen Furley wrote:
On 23 May, 20:17, "Paul Scott" wrote: Not so - they'll run through into the turnback siding thoughtfully provided just beyond the station, as reported in Paul C's post elsewhere in the thread. I see. I arrived at the station just before the train was due to leave, so it was already in the platform, and I didn't see where it had come from. I think this is the first time I have been in West Croydon station since the Wimbledon branch closed. I never need to go towards Sutton, and if heading towards London then East Croydon is quicker. I should have added that I expect trains can arrive in platform 3 from the Norwood direction, I believe there have been some additional signals to allow all sorts of extra moves. But as I was suggesting earlier in response to Paul C, it makes sense to have a normal plan for when the timetable is doing ok. I reckon the trains will have less than 10 mins in the turnback, so once they are that late they may well arrive into platform 3. Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 23, 6:23 pm, MIG wrote: On 23 May, 18:12, Paul Corfield wrote: [snip] You have to make allowances for us "north of the river people" for whom the "Southern Region" is still a bit of a mystery. From that fact that you survived, I assume that you had plenty of garlic and silver bullets. I took a day off drinking blood today and went for a ride on the ELL - though I didn't actually venture north of the river this time (had forgotten my passport). Anyhow, great stuff - the ELLX proper is finally here! Got a number of thoughts on it all, both the 'new' bits and the rest, how it all fits together, and what it all means for Londinium (...er, that last bit sounds like it has the potential for extreme pretentiousness!). But it'll have to wait - which will likely come as a relief - as I'm somewhat frazzled after a long day spent out and about in the sun. (Oh, the sunlight things a myth, BTW.) And no, it wasn't a long day coz I spent it all on the ELL - I'm not that obsessed! Indeed, I actually managed to use the line to get somewhere too, shock horror... ;-) |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 23, 8:38*pm, Stephen Furley wrote: On 23 May, 03:14, E27002 wrote: Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. *The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. *In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. *I hope in time we will see further development. *I look forward to visiting London and checking out the new system for myself. This will make it easier to get onto the DLR from Croydon. *Until now it's been very slow, via Lewisham, on either the 75, or Tramlink to Elmers end, and then train. *The East London still takes quite a time to get to Shadwell, but at least the journey to most DLR destinations will be shorter from there than from Lewisham. 33 mins or so from West Croydon to Shadwell - depends what you think of as "quite a time" I s'pose. Of course the eastern end of the DLR is easily accessible via a very easy interchange off the ELL onto the Jubilee line at Canada Water (but see below), then a further v. easy interchange at Canning Town. (The tube/DLR interchange at Canary Wharf/ Heron Quays isn't quite so seamless.) Of course that's not a new journey opportunity as such - it was available under the old ELL (via a change at New Cross Gate) - but the through service does make it so much easier. Quick note re the Canada Water - the interchange is easy, but at peak times the Jubilee line is sardines, so commuters might find the Shadwell option more realistic (esp. now that Bank to Lewisham DLR trains are becoming 3-cars long). |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 23/05/2010 03:14, E27002 wrote:
Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. The cover of the new map seems to deliberately avoid mentioning the ELL. Which budget controls the tube map - LUL, London Rail, or some sort of joint budget? |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
"Stephen Furley" wrote in message
... On 23 May, 03:14, E27002 wrote: Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. I hope in time we will see further development. I look forward to visiting London and checking out the new system for myself. This will make it easier to get onto the DLR from Croydon. Until now it's been very slow, via Lewisham, on either the 75, or Tramlink to Elmers end, and then train. The East London still takes quite a time to get to Shadwell, but at least the journey to most DLR destinations will be shorter from there than from Lewisham. ============== What is happening this morning? All CrPal trains seem to be terminating Surrey Quays. I was planning to try it out today. MaxB |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
In message , Batman55
writes What is happening this morning? All CrPal trains seem to be terminating Surrey Quays. I was planning to try it out today. Live departure boards are currently (10.08) showing that the service is running through to Crystal Palace. -- Paul Terry |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 12:48*am, Basil Jet wrote: On 23/05/2010 03:14, E27002 wrote: Network Rails local radial routes "belong" to commuters. *The Underground is the railway of Commuters and Tourists. *In many ways the Overground system is London's railway for Londoners. The cover of the new map seems to deliberately avoid mentioning the ELL. Which budget controls the tube map - LUL, London Rail, or some sort of joint budget? I think you're looking for a conspiracy where there isn't one... |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 10:09*am, Paul Terry wrote: In message , Batman55 writes What is happening this morning? All CrPal trains seem to be terminating Surrey Quays. I was planning to try it out today. Live departure boards are currently (10.08) showing that the service is running through to Crystal Palace. Nothing showing on LO JourneyCheck at the time of posting (10:30): http://www.jcheck.com/londonoverground Wonder how busy it was this morning. Also wonder how many people might have got stuck at Canada Water waiting for a sliver of space on an eastbound Jubilee line train during the height of the rush... the solution being go to Shadwell instead of course (well for those Canary Wharf bound at least). (Perhaps a bit of a shame that the riverbus service doesn't stop at a pier near Rotherhithe or even Wapping stations, though I rather doubt there'd really be the requisite demand to support it.) |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Not everyone's happy, it seems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8700136.stm Is this just the fag end of some dispute the RMT were having about whether it should be tube or rail, from about 5/6 years ago? Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 24 May, 12:14, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Not everyone's happy, it seems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8700136.stm Is this just the fag end of some dispute the RMT were having about whether it should be tube or rail, from about 5/6 years ago? Paul S There was an RMT campaign, although not a dispute as far as I know, about the fact that this was the first bit of LU to be privatised and had ominous implications. Ken claimed that it wasn't privatisation, and then admitted that it was. Among the issues were that a lot had been spent by LU on new facilities that were never going to be used by LU and were a gift to the private operator. I think there were also issues around redeployment of staff in the interim, but again I can't recall there being an actual dispute. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 12:23*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 12:14, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Not everyone's happy, it seems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8700136.stm Is this just the fag end of some dispute the RMT were having about whether it should be tube or rail, from about 5/6 years ago? There was an RMT campaign, although not a dispute as far as I know, about the fact that this was the first bit of LU to be privatised and had ominous implications. *Ken claimed that it wasn't privatisation, and then admitted that it was. I don't recall him "admitting is was". Depends how one defines "privatisation", but I didn't really regard the changes to the ELL as being that, not as such at least. But maybe that's just the angle I was looking at it from. I suppose I can sort of understand the RMT's concerns that it could represent the thin end of the wedge. Among the issues were that a lot had been spent by LU on new facilities that were never going to be used by LU and were a gift to the private operator. That's simply nonsensical. The infrastructure is owned by London Rail, part of TfL - all that's happened in that sense is that it's been transferred from one bit of TfL to another. LOROL didn't build the new elements of the line, and nor are they going to maintain it either. And if TfL did decide to award the operating concession to another company in the future, then LOROL aren't going to rip out the staff loos or whatever when they leave, not least because said loos wouldn't be theirs to take. I think there were also issues around redeployment of staff in the interim, but again I can't recall there being an actual dispute. Surrey Quays, Rotherhithe, Wapping and Shadwell - plus Shoreditch High Street as a replacement for the old Shoreditch - certainly transferred from LUL to LOROL management, and of course it's LOROL drivers and line controllers (or whatever they're called) along with Network Rail signallers who run the service rather than LUL people. I don't know if it was a quid-pro-quo as such, but perhaps worth bearing in mind that management of all the joint DC Line/ Bakerloo stations (apart from Willesden Jn) went to LUL rather than LOROL. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
"Mizter T" wrote in message
... On May 24, 10:09 am, Paul Terry wrote: In message , Batman55 writes What is happening this morning? All CrPal trains seem to be terminating Surrey Quays. I was planning to try it out today. Live departure boards are currently (10.08) showing that the service is running through to Crystal Palace. Nothing showing on LO JourneyCheck at the time of posting (10:30): http://www.jcheck.com/londonoverground Wonder how busy it was this morning. Also wonder how many people might have got stuck at Canada Water waiting for a sliver of space on an eastbound Jubilee line train during the height of the rush... the solution being go to Shadwell instead of course (well for those Canary Wharf bound at least). (Perhaps a bit of a shame that the riverbus service doesn't stop at a pier near Rotherhithe or even Wapping stations, though I rather doubt there'd really be the requisite demand to support it.) =============== I have certainly just completed a journey from West Croydon to Dalston and back to CP without problem. However, the Nat Rail journey planner is still showing the services as cancelled! Incidentally, I really don't like travelling in totally back-to-window trains. Its OKish if you are underground but, like several other people, I spent my most of my journey twisted round to look out of the window. Its a bit like travelling in a long corridor with seating for the exhausted at intervals along the wall! Also, I only travelled in one unit there and back but the recording for Next/Shortly arriving/Arrived at Brockley kept saying "...Aukley". On the return the same happened at New Cross Gate but the Shortly arriving message sounded almost right and when we got to Brockley, she definitely got it right. That suggests to me that the lady actually travels on the train and needed to practise a bit! Has that been others experience - is this a job creation programme? Do I assume that Shoreditch High St station will be subsumed into some skyscraper in due course - it was really disappointing to sit in a concrete box just at the most interesting viewpoint? MaxB |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On Sun, 23 May 2010 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley
wrote: Looking North at Dalston, the line seems to curve to the West; Is there any provision to be able to re-build the East curve if needed in the future? It doesn't look like it. I'm pretty sure it's protected. The car park and access road to the Kingsland Shopping Centre are on the route of the curve. Hackney council a couple of years back published (ambitious) plans to create a park above the eastern curve and also allow development above the western curve. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 24 May, 12:50, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 12:23*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 12:14, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: Good news. It's the physical manifestation of some outlandish plans, in fact. But I think it'll genuinely serve a purpose, and will quickly become a routine part of London's transport infrastructure - indeed, half of it already was, but the annexation of the defunct alignment into Broad Street (defunct no longer) really means the old ELL route can realise some of its until now unexploited potential. Not everyone's happy, it seems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8700136.stm Is this just the fag end of some dispute the RMT were having about whether it should be tube or rail, from about 5/6 years ago? There was an RMT campaign, although not a dispute as far as I know, about the fact that this was the first bit of LU to be privatised and had ominous implications. *Ken claimed that it wasn't privatisation, and then admitted that it was. I don't recall him "admitting is was". Depends how one defines "privatisation", but I didn't really regard the changes to the ELL as being that, not as such at least. But maybe that's just the angle I was looking at it from. I suppose I can sort of understand the RMT's concerns that it could represent the thin end of the wedge. There was certainly a lot of unhappiness about the successful and popular public service operation run by LU being replaced according to what was very topically at the time seen as a failed franchise model for NR. Among the issues were that a lot had been spent by LU on new facilities that were never going to be used by LU and were a gift to the private operator. That's simply nonsensical. The infrastructure is owned by London Rail, part of TfL - all that's happened in that sense is that it's been transferred from one bit of TfL to another. LOROL didn't build the new elements of the line, and nor are they going to maintain it either. And if TfL did decide to award the operating concession to another company in the future, then LOROL aren't going to rip out the staff loos or whatever when they leave, not least because said loos wouldn't be theirs to take. I think it was specifically around brand new staff facilities which were paid for by LU immediately before the line closed and were only ever going to be used by the private TOCs staff. Anyway, I'm only reporting things I picked up on at the time. I think there were also issues around redeployment of staff in the interim, but again I can't recall there being an actual dispute. Surrey Quays, Rotherhithe, Wapping and Shadwell - plus Shoreditch High Street as a replacement for the old Shoreditch - certainly transferred from LUL to LOROL management, and of course it's LOROL drivers and line controllers (or whatever they're called) along with Network Rail signallers who run the service rather than LUL people. I don't know if it was a quid-pro-quo as such, but perhaps worth bearing in mind that management of all the joint DC Line/ Bakerloo stations (apart from Willesden Jn) went to LUL rather than LOROL.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 2:20*pm, Ivor The Engine wrote: On Sun, 23 May 2010 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Furley wrote: Looking North at Dalston, the line seems to curve to the West; *Is there any provision to be able to re-build the East curve if needed in the future? *It doesn't look like it. I'm pretty sure it's protected. * The car park and access road to the Kingsland Shopping Centre are on the route of the curve. Yes, AIUI the route is protected, and as you say nothing has actually been built on it apart from some tarmac for a car park, plus Dalston Jn station was built to allow access to the eastern curve, albeit only for a single track. You can see the blanking wall from the easternmost platform at DJ. Hackney council a couple of years back published (ambitious) plans to create a park above the eastern curve and also allow development above the western curve. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 2:32*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 12:50, Mizter T wrote: On May 24, 12:23*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 12:14, "Paul Scott" wrote: [snip] Not everyone's happy, it seems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8700136.stm Is this just the fag end of some dispute the RMT were having about whether it should be tube or rail, from about 5/6 years ago? There was an RMT campaign, although not a dispute as far as I know, about the fact that this was the first bit of LU to be privatised and had ominous implications. *Ken claimed that it wasn't privatisation, and then admitted that it was. I don't recall him "admitting is was". Depends how one defines "privatisation", but I didn't really regard the changes to the ELL as being that, not as such at least. But maybe that's just the angle I was looking at it from. I suppose I can sort of understand the RMT's concerns that it could represent the thin end of the wedge. There was certainly a lot of unhappiness about the successful and popular public service operation run by LU being replaced according to what was very topically at the time seen as a failed franchise model for NR. Sure - except the "London Rail Concession" (as it's properly known) doesn't follow the conventional rail franchising model, it's quite significantly different. Among the issues were that a lot had been spent by LU on new facilities that were never going to be used by LU and were a gift to the private operator. That's simply nonsensical. The infrastructure is owned by London Rail, part of TfL - all that's happened in that sense is that it's been transferred from one bit of TfL to another. LOROL didn't build the new elements of the line, and nor are they going to maintain it either. And if TfL did decide to award the operating concession to another company in the future, then LOROL aren't going to rip out the staff loos or whatever when they leave, not least because said loos wouldn't be theirs to take. I think it was specifically around brand new staff facilities which were paid for by LU immediately before the line closed and were only ever going to be used by the private TOCs staff. Hmm - I think they'd have been paid for by TfL one way or the other, if not in LUL days then when the line was being converted. Though I can understand that staff might have felt a bit miffed that work was being undertaken but they wouldn't benefit from it. That said, if it was all part of the ELLX project, then I'd expect it to have come out of the ELLX budget. So it'd be interesting to know what exactly the RMT's angle was on this - without knowing more I don't find that argument terribly convincing. Anyway, I'm only reporting things I picked up on at the time. Not shooting the messenger, just questioning the message! |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Batman55 wrote:
I have certainly just completed a journey from West Croydon to Dalston and back to CP without problem. However, the Nat Rail journey planner is still showing the services as cancelled! Just looking at live departures for West Croydon and Crystal Palace, what seems to have happened is that they have got calls at DALSJN appearing followed by Dalston Jn [cancelled]. I think that has come up before somewhere else, and the automatic systems got confused because the same location appeared twice? Whatever, it probably just needs a simple data correction to put it right... Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Some pictures:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=sunil06090 2+"east+london+line"+2010 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote:
Some pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc...."east+lo ndon+line"+2010 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG Thank you so much for posting. I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc...."east+lo ndon+line"+2010 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a clarification follows... (a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the 'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such - not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services - and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh, and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central government... confused? That was my intention!) (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Mizter T wrote:
(b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the wrong way round, doesn't it? Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc..."east+lon don+line"+2010 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...tal_Palace.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra.... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a clarification follows... (a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the 'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such - not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services - and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh, and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central government... confused? That was my intention!) (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. I know that the real estate at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. My understanding is that according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had their logo placed uppermost. And, AFIK (please correct me) the original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate sense) of TfL. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote:
On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote: On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&searc..."east+lon don+line"+2010 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...al_Palace..JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...al_Palace..JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...t_Brockley.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...st_Croydon.JPG Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. Don't want to bore anyone too much, but a correction and a clarification follows... (a) The double-arrow device is not the Network Rail logo, rather the 'National Rail logo' - that's in inverted commas because "National Rail" is more of a concept than an actual entity, and it's really the British Rail logo which has lived on after privatisation - the copyright owned by the SoS Transport and is freely licensed for use by the TOCs, and indeed my understanding is that it's also a requirement at stations that are part of the National Rail network (or some such - not sure if that's an ORR requirement of all stations, or a requirement made by the DfT of operators providing franchised services - and when I think about it I can't recall it appearing anywhere outside St Pancras station, which is of course owned by LCR, albeit managed on a day to day basis under contract by Network Rail... oh, and did I say that LCR is currently wholly owned by central government... confused? That was my intention!) (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate sense) of TfL. Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London Overground ..." I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the rush hour. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 7:46*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: Mizter T wrote: (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the wrong way round, doesn't it? Not sure about that actually - if memory serves me right, most of the signs on the NLL are that way around, with the roundel at the top... let me see... yes, roundel at the top, NR symbol below - examples: Canonbury http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2441197183/ Dalston Kingsland http://www.flickr.com/photos/55935853@N00/2428413915/ West Hampstead http://www.flickr.com/photos/55935853@N00/3015550574/ This is what the TfL design standard for LO signs says (on page 21): ---quote--- Where an Overground station interchanges with the rest of the National Rail network and that property is owned by National Rail, it is the National Rail logo that is displayed before the Overground roundel. ---/quote--- I think this is 'interchange' in terms of how it's done on the Tube map - i.e. a new interchange opportunity, rather than two services running along the same route for some distance. Under that reading there wouldn't be that many places where this would apply - West Croydon, Harrow & Wealdstone, Shepherd's Bush perhaps - though w.r.t. the latter whoever designed/authorised this seems to think not: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/3958791927/ Open to interpretation I suppose. BTW, couldn't find Flickr photos of any H&W signage - did find this of West Croydon which I believe was taken by a certain PC of this parish, looks as though the signage revolution / LO signage police haven't got there yet. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote: On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures: [snip] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...rance_2010.JPG [snip] Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. [snip] (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate sense) of TfL. Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London Overground ..." I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the rush hour. No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon, are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO. (Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.) Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to generate. |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 7:46 pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: Mizter T wrote: (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Everything in their own 'signs standards' suggests that sign is the wrong way round, doesn't it? Not sure about that actually - if memory serves me right, most of the signs on the NLL are that way around, with the roundel at the top... let me see... yes, roundel at the top, NR symbol below - examples: ---quote--- Where an Overground station interchanges with the rest of the National Rail network and that property is owned by National Rail, it is the National Rail logo that is displayed before the Overground roundel. ---/quote--- I've just thought of something else - which might add to the confusion. The design standards refer to 'owned by National Rail' - if we read that as 'owned by a National Rail TOC', where 'owned by' is short for 'station facility operator is' it makes sense. The station in this case is 'owned by LO' even though the freeholder is Network Rail. IYSWIM... Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
MIG wrote:
Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London Overground ..." I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the rush hour. No, I think the staff were 'TUPE'd over last September, (or it might have been at the SN franchise change date), but the automatic and 'human' PA announcements are still run by SN, from their existing control centre. Given the auto announcments are fully integrated with the signalling system, you'd expect that to take a bit of altering... Paul S |
Extended East London Line opens fully today
On 24 May, 20:30, Mizter T wrote:
On May 24, 8:07*pm, MIG wrote: On 24 May, 19:51, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:40*am, Mizter T wrote: On May 24, 7:06*pm, E27002 wrote: On May 24, 11:00*am, "Dr. Sunil" wrote: Some pictures: [snip] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._eastern_entra... [snip] Thank you so much for posting. *I appreciate being able to see the new service in operation from afar. *I note the implication that Brockley Station is now "owned" by London Overground. *That is to say that the TfL Roundel appears above the Network Rail Logo. [snip] (b) Brockley station - and all the other LO managed stations, remain in Network Rail ownership (though E27002's use of quotation marks above suggest he knew as much). The tenant is basically TfL London Rail, and day to day management is done by TfL's chosen operator LOROL - but I think TfL's London Rail division are rather more involved in 'bigger stuff' like renovation projects etc. Thank you for clarifying this Mizter T. *I know that the real estate at Brockley belonged to Network Rail. *My understanding is that according to convention the body with "operational ownership" had their logo placed uppermost. * And, AFIK (please correct me) the original East London stretch remains the property (in the real estate sense) of TfL. Back in February I posted that standard announcements on Brockley station were preceded by "Southern Railway on behalf of London Overground ..." I assume that it was/is still staffed by Southern, with new rules imposed at a distance by LO who have no idea about the implications of totally f*cking idiotic decisions like locking the main exit in the rush hour. No, you assume wrong - Brockley and all the other stations south of NX Gate that the ELL calls at, including Crystal Palace and West Croydon, are managed by LO and have been since 20 September 2009 - this was the date that the new south central franchise began, and so I was considered an opportune date to transfer these stations across to LO. I knew that bit, but I guessed that maybe they had subcontracted the work to Southern, at least till LO services were running. No doubt it's the same actual people in any case. The response on the ground to all the complaints seemed to be on the lines of "we're not permitted to open the gate; you can complain to these people" offer LO complaint forms. No sense of being part of a team, more like a distant imposition. Anyway, it's not a great advert for the improved ambience that LO was supposed to bring to desolate NLL and Southern stations. (Of course the south central franchise holder didn't change but remained Govia's Southern.) The legal lettering on the ticket machines changed at this time, but outwardly little else did - the staff got new LO uniforms more recently. (I assume the announcements you heard were long-line ones made by Southern's control centre as part of an interim arrangement - presumably such announcements will now be made from the new LO ELL control centre at NX Gate.) Also, a week or so ago I dug up various bits and pieces on the web about the situation at Brockley - seems TfL are aware of it, not least because of the complaints that have come their way. There was also talk of plans for a rebuild at Brockley so as to accommodate the expected growth in passenger numbers that the ELL is expected to generate. There has been quite significant building work recently, with some new landscaping and so on. Strange they'd do that only to have to it over again. |
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