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In message , at 02:49:23
on Fri, 18 Jun 2010, remarked: Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from this scheme. Not hysteria but reality. It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably? I doubt it. The pattern of affected councils is pretty all-party but the changes were brought in by the last government which, to be fair eventually realised its mistake. And this government can't be bothered to fix? -- Roland Perry |
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On Jun 18, 4:48*pm, wrote: In article , (Roland Perry) wrote: In message , at 02:49:23 on Fri, 18 Jun 2010, remarked: Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from this scheme. Not hysteria but reality. It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably? I doubt it. The pattern of affected councils is pretty all-party but the changes were brought in by the last government which, to be fair eventually realised its mistake. And this government can't be bothered to fix? They seem to think it's already fixed, I think. To clarify (because there's the danger of discussing at cross-purposes here!) I think some changes were made to the way the DfT recompenses councils for free bus travel, which happened in response to concerns such as those Colin outlined above. I should add I'm no expert on the matter! |
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In message
, Mizter T writes To clarify (because there's the danger of discussing at cross-purposes here!) I think some changes were made to the way the DfT recompenses councils for free bus travel, which happened in response to concerns such as those Colin outlined above. I should add I'm no expert on the matter! One of these days, someone (other than me) is going to realise that courier services could be offered much more cheaply by the retired hopping around on their free travel passes than by man+van who has to pay for van, petrol, insurance, congestion charge etc. The only difficulty is organising distribution centres - parish tea rooms might appeal (I'm not being entirely flippant, by the way). -- Paul Terry |
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"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Mizter T writes To clarify (because there's the danger of discussing at cross-purposes here!) I think some changes were made to the way the DfT recompenses councils for free bus travel, which happened in response to concerns such as those Colin outlined above. I should add I'm no expert on the matter! One of these days, someone (other than me) is going to realise that courier services could be offered much more cheaply by the retired hopping around on their free travel passes than by man+van who has to pay for van, petrol, insurance, congestion charge etc. The only difficulty is organising distribution centres - parish tea rooms might appeal (I'm not being entirely flippant, by the way). -- Paul Terry At least one travel company in my part of the world advertised for someone to deliver tickets up to London and while I can't remember the exact wording and I suspect they had to be careful about age discrimination it was pretty clear they were looking for somebody with some from of rail pass and I got the distinct impression they were looking for a senior pass holder. |
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2010, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Mizter T writes To clarify (because there's the danger of discussing at cross-purposes here!) I think some changes were made to the way the DfT recompenses councils for free bus travel, which happened in response to concerns such as those Colin outlined above. I should add I'm no expert on the matter! One of these days, someone (other than me) is going to realise that courier services could be offered much more cheaply by the retired hopping around on their free travel passes than by man+van who has to pay for van, petrol, insurance, congestion charge etc. The only difficulty is organising distribution centres - parish tea rooms might appeal (I'm not being entirely flippant, by the way). I know a guy who's old enough to have his freedom pass, but still works, as a consultant. He travels around on his pass, and so doesn't have to bill for travel. It's probably not a big saving for his clients, given how much he charges! tom -- When I see a man on a bicycle I have hope for the human race. -- H. G. Wells |
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Graham Harrison wrote
"Paul Terry" wrote One of these days, someone (other than me) is going to realise that courier services could be offered much more cheaply by the retired hopping around on their free travel passes than by man+van who has to pay for van, petrol, insurance, congestion charge etc. At least one travel company in my part of the world advertised for someone to deliver tickets up to London and while I can't remember the exact wording and I suspect they had to be careful about age discrimination it was pretty clear they were looking for somebody with some from of rail pass and I got the distinct impression they were looking for a senior pass holder. Which is only 1/3 off. A rail pensioner with a privilege ticket would be a better selection or (within the zones) a Freedom pass holder. I recall a character in a Dick Francis Novel (Driving Force) who IIRC, was paid rail fare as expenses then hitch-hiked. -- Mike D |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 10:48:26 on Fri, 18 Jun 2010, remarked: Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from this scheme. Not hysteria but reality. It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably? I doubt it. The pattern of affected councils is pretty all-party but the changes were brought in by the last government which, to be fair eventually realised its mistake. And this government can't be bothered to fix? They seem to think it's already fixed, I think. So we won't hear any more whinging from Cambridge City about the unfairness of it all. Good. Depends where you read. In the right places you would have heard much the same refrain from quite a list of councils. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 13:00:38 on Sat, 19 Jun 2010, remarked: And this government can't be bothered to fix? They seem to think it's already fixed, I think. So we won't hear any more whinging from Cambridge City about the unfairness of it all. Good. Depends where you read. In the right places you would have heard much the same refrain from quite a list of councils. What refrain is that - applauding that the system has been made more fair (which is what you appeared to be claiming). Both. The fact that their finances were being destabilised and when the last Government acted to fix that, the London councils claiming fire consequences for the whole London Freedom Pass scheme. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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The House of Commons Library published a paper last month describing
bus concessionary fare schemes in the UK. http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snbt-01499.pdf Yesterday, they published another paper describing a proposal in 2002 to limit bus concessions for older and disabled people to a half fare. I wonder why? http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snbt-02009.pdf |
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"John @ home" wrote in message ... The House of Commons Library published a paper last month describing bus concessionary fare schemes in the UK. http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snbt-01499.pdf Yesterday, they published another paper describing a proposal in 2002 to limit bus concessions for older and disabled people to a half fare. I wonder why? http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...snbt-02009.pdf Could that be in response to an MP's question ? The Hansard for the last session of PMQT or Transport questions if there is one may answer that one. Which isn't to say it wasn't a planted question. Martin |
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In message
, "John @ home" writes The House of Commons Library published a paper last month describing bus concessionary fare schemes in the UK. http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...ch/briefings/s nbt-01499.pdf Yesterday, they published another paper describing a proposal in 2002 to limit bus concessions for older and disabled people to a half fare. I wonder why? http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap...ch/briefings/s nbt-02009.pdf The coalition government wants to review the financing of the scheme, while at the same time being committed to free travel for the people concerned. AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. -- Paul Terry |
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In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote: In message , "John @ home" writes The House of Commons Library published a paper last month describing bus concessionary fare schemes in the UK. http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap.../briefings/snb t-01499.pdf Yesterday, they published another paper describing a proposal in 2002 to limit bus concessions for older and disabled people to a half fare. I wonder why? http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpap.../briefings/snb t-02009.pdf The coalition government wants to review the financing of the scheme, while at the same time being committed to free travel for the people concerned. AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message , at 19:44:28 on Sat, 3
Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. They are allegedly "not compensated enough" for those out-of-area visitors. It doesn't seem very difficult to tweak the formulae a little to take account of this[1], so the bad guys here are those who don't want to do that. [1] Assuming that policy objectives are indeed for it to be completely neutral irrespective of the journeys being made. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 18:29:46
on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, remarked: It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. It's not going to help somewhere like Peterborough[1], which would presumably have the same problem as Cambridge does now. [1] Which as we all know is a unitary County. -- Roland Perry |
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"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 19:44:28 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. They are allegedly "not compensated enough" for those out-of-area visitors. It doesn't seem very difficult to tweak the formulae a little to take account of this[1], so the bad guys here are those who don't want to do that. I can't remember where it is but there is at least one council who quite happily admits to making a profit on the current deal tim |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 18:29:46 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, remarked: It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. It's not going to help somewhere like Peterborough[1], which would presumably have the same problem as Cambridge does now. [1] Which as we all know is a unitary County. How short of its concessionary fares spend is the grant it receives? Not over £1 million as in Cambridge, I bet. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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wrote in message ... In article , (tim....) wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 19:44:28 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. They are allegedly "not compensated enough" for those out-of-area visitors. It doesn't seem very difficult to tweak the formulae a little to take account of this[1], so the bad guys here are those who don't want to do that. I can't remember where it is but there is at least one council who quite happily admits to making a profit on the current deal Almost any council with few bus services. A local example is Fenland. I would have thought that was taking into account when working out the grant. It's the number of "non local" users that makes it go wrong. tim |
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In article ,
(tim....) wrote: wrote in message ... In article , (tim....) wrote: "Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 19:44:28 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: AIUI, from comments in u.t.l. by Colin Rosentheil and others, the costs don't fall equitably on local authorities at present - in particular, those that are popular holiday resorts or tourist destinations end up paying for a lot of "out of area" visitors. They are allegedly "not compensated enough" for those out-of-area visitors. It doesn't seem very difficult to tweak the formulae a little to take account of this[1], so the bad guys here are those who don't want to do that. I can't remember where it is but there is at least one council who quite happily admits to making a profit on the current deal Almost any council with few bus services. A local example is Fenland. I would have thought that was taking into account when working out the grant. It's the number of "non local" users that makes it go wrong. Mainly but not exclusively. Chesterfield has been utterly clobbered because it's the bus hub for its locality so loads of people from neighbouring districts change buses there and Chesterfield has to pay for their onward journeys. Fenland pays little because it has few bus services to carry its pensioners while Cambridge's bill is higher because there are far more buses here. However, South Cambs has to pay half the inwards park and ride journeys because some of the car parks are outside the City and in their district. The City has to pay all the return trips of course. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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wrote
(Roland Perry) wrote: 18:29 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, remarked: It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. It's not going to help somewhere like Peterborough[1], which would presumably have the same problem as Cambridge does now. [1] Which as we all know is a unitary County. How short of its concessionary fares spend is the grant it receives? Not over £1 million as in Cambridge, I bet. Since most journeys are return, the outward journey will be charged to a district outside Cambridge and an equal amount for the return leg charged to Cambridge. Same for Peterborough I would have thought. -- Mike D |
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In article 01cb1bbb$4b96cf00$LocalHost@default, (Michael
R N Dolbear) wrote: wrote (Roland Perry) wrote: 18:29 on Sat, 3 Jul 2010, remarked: It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. It's not going to help somewhere like Peterborough[1], which would presumably have the same problem as Cambridge does now. [1] Which as we all know is a unitary County. How short of its concessionary fares spend is the grant it receives? Not over £1 million as in Cambridge, I bet. Since most journeys are return, the outward journey will be charged to a district outside Cambridge and an equal amount for the return leg charged to Cambridge. Same for Peterborough I would have thought. Only where boundaries are crossed, I agree. But that wasn't my question anyway. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 10:20:12 on Sun, 4 Jul 2010, remarked: It appears that the funding will shift from District to County councils in 2011. That will smooth things out a bit but still needs a grant formula which relates more closely to actual expenditure. It's not going to help somewhere like Peterborough[1], which would presumably have the same problem as Cambridge does now. [1] Which as we all know is a unitary County. How short of its concessionary fares spend is the grant it receives? Not over £1 million as in Cambridge, I bet. Peterborough is bigger, so maybe there are even more people travelling in to do their shopping. On the other hand maybe Peterborough county includes most of its suburbs, in a way that Cambridge doesn't. Your problem is presumably having so much residential so close, that's actually in Scambs. How many million tourists does Peterborough get each year? Get real! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message , at 05:46:42
on Mon, 5 Jul 2010, remarked: How many million tourists does Peterborough get each year? Get real! How many tourists arrive in Cambridge by twirly-pass? And when I was last in Cambridge it was difficult to spot many tourists over the age of 25, irrespective of how they'd arrived. -- Roland Perry |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 05:46:42 on Mon, 5 Jul 2010, remarked: How many million tourists does Peterborough get each year? Get real! How many tourists arrive in Cambridge by twirly-pass? They use them when they are here! And when I was last in Cambridge it was difficult to spot many tourists over the age of 25, irrespective of how they'd arrived. Your blinkers are showing. Anyway, you still haven't said how many tourists there are in Peterborough. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 10:27:08 on Mon, 5 Jul 2010, remarked: How many million tourists does Peterborough get each year? Get real! How many tourists arrive in Cambridge by twirly-pass? They use them when they are here! So these are UK-resident OAP tourists who arrived by train and then use the buses around the City? And when I was last in Cambridge it was difficult to spot many tourists over the age of 25, irrespective of how they'd arrived. Your blinkers are showing. Using my eyes (sans blinkers). Anyway, you still haven't said how many tourists there are in Peterborough. They wouldn't be using the bus to get around inside Peterborough, as all the tourist stuff is within walking distance. Oxford, York and Lincoln might have a problem with people using buses within the city limits. But I'd expect the vast majority of OAP visitors to all these places to be coming into the centre to do their shopping, not sightseeing. Stop trolling just this once, please, Roland. We are talking about the cost to councils of non-residents using bus passes! -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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In message , Roland Perry
writes So these are UK-resident OAP tourists who arrived by train and then use the buses around the City? I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, given the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. -- Paul Terry |
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In message , at 07:08:34 on Tue, 6
Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: So these are UK-resident OAP tourists who arrived by train and then use the buses around the City? I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, given the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. How far away from Cambridge do you live, and to what extent do you define yourself as a "tourist" when visiting? I'm sure there are some - although tourists are perhaps less likely to use P&R than shoppers from Scambs, being less familiar with the system. And are these tourists just "up for the day", or staying locally. In the latter case the P&R is even less likely to figure as you can't park overnight and you already need to drive to the hotel/B&B to unload your bags. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , Roland Perry
writes In message , at 07:08:34 on Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, given the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. How far away from Cambridge do you live, "Freedom pass" means that I must be a resident of a London borough. and to what extent do you define yourself as a "tourist" when visiting? I generally go there on academic business - but the National Bus Pass scheme doesn't differentiate, providing that I don't need a Cambridge bus before 9.30am on a weekday. I'm sure there are some - although tourists are perhaps less likely to use P&R than shoppers from Scambs, being less familiar with the system. Possibly, although Cambridge P&R is well advertised - and drivers who ignore the signs often regret it. I imagine that there is also considerable use of the National Bus Pass from people arriving by train, as the station is a long walk from the city centre. And are these tourists just "up for the day", or staying locally. They have to be day-trippers to use the Park and Ride car parks. Of course, being only an hour or so from London makes Cambridge a popular destination for day trippers. -- Paul Terry |
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Roland Perry wrote in news:snSYsFqVNtMMFAt5
@perry.co.uk: In message , at 07:08:34 on Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: So these are UK-resident OAP tourists who arrived by train and then use the buses around the City? I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, given the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. How far away from Cambridge do you live, and to what extent do you define yourself as a "tourist" when visiting? I'm sure there are some - although tourists are perhaps less likely to use P&R than shoppers from Scambs, being less familiar with the system. And are these tourists just "up for the day", or staying locally. In the latter case the P&R is even less likely to figure as you can't park overnight and you already need to drive to the hotel/B&B to unload your bags. I am the parent of two students at Cambridge University. I am allowed to park in their college grounds when visiting them, and have on occasion then used the buses with my pass to get around the city. Perhaps I am not very typical, but there are a lot of students in Cambridge, and these days it isn't uncommon for their parents to be the wrong side of 60. Peter -- | Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK | |
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In message , at 09:17:09 on Tue, 6
Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. How far away from Cambridge do you live, "Freedom pass" means that I must be a resident of a London borough. Fair enough, but I'm not sure why we are supposed to know that. and to what extent do you define yourself as a "tourist" when visiting? I generally go there on academic business - but the National Bus Pass scheme doesn't differentiate, providing that I don't need a Cambridge bus before 9.30am on a weekday. Do you use free buses to do the whole trip, or is the "bit in the middle" on a train, or even a car? I'm sure there are some - although tourists are perhaps less likely to use P&R than shoppers from Scambs, being less familiar with the system. Possibly, although Cambridge P&R is well advertised - All of them are pretty well advertised, but they never advertise the gotchas. Experience of different P&R round the country says service levels are pretty patchy, and as a first time visitor to Cambridge it's always going to be a gamble. and drivers who ignore the signs often regret it. You've done a survey which told you that? I imagine that there is also considerable use of the National Bus Pass from people arriving by train, as the station is a long walk from the city centre. Those are the ones I mentioned originally. And are these tourists just "up for the day", or staying locally. They have to be day-trippers to use the Park and Ride car parks. Agreed. Of course, being only an hour or so from London makes Cambridge a popular destination for day trippers. If you say so. I'm still unconvinced that this is a major drain on resources, compared to people living within a 10-mile radius coming to Cambridge to shop. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 08:57:42 on Tue,
6 Jul 2010, Peter Campbell Smith remarked: I am the parent of two students at Cambridge University. I am allowed to park in their college grounds when visiting them, and have on occasion then used the buses with my pass to get around the city. Perhaps I am not very typical, but there are a lot of students in Cambridge, and these days it isn't uncommon for their parents to be the wrong side of 60. That's a pretty weak example, and yes, you are not typical. -- Roland Perry |
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On Jul 6, 12:50*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 09:17:09 on Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. How far away from Cambridge do you live, "Freedom pass" means that I must be a resident of a London borough. Fair enough, but I'm not sure why we are supposed to know that. Apart from the fact you did know that, this is uk.transport.london, and the existence of the Freedom Pass is also regularly part of discussions on uk.railway. Hard not to come to the conclusion that you do enjoy a bit of provocative trolling from time to time Mr Perry ;-) |
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In message , Roland Perry
writes In message , at 09:17:09 on Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Paul Terry remarked: I should think that rather more arrive by car and then use their passes for a free trip to and from the city centre on the park-and-ride buses - that's certainly how I use my own Freedom Pass, the cost and difficulty of parking in central Cambridge all day. "Freedom pass" means that I must be a resident of a London borough. Fair enough, but I'm not sure why we are supposed to know that. Freedom passes are often discussed here (here being uk.transport.london, after all). Do you use free buses to do the whole trip, or is the "bit in the middle" on a train, or even a car? The answer is in the bit you quoted (viz. car from London to one of the park-and-ride sites - usually Trumpington - and then bus). Experience of different P&R round the country says service levels are pretty patchy, and as a first time visitor to Cambridge it's always going to be a gamble. Heaven forbid that they might have to use the Internet to see what service levels are like before they leave! But you are right in the sense that early closing times of such car parks can be a gotcha. The Cambridge scheme is well set-up, with staffed information offices at the terminals and frequent bus services. and drivers who ignore the signs often regret it. You've done a survey which told you that? No, it's something that I and colleagues have experienced, which is why I now always use the free park-and-ride. Parking in the centre of Cambridge is extremely difficult and expensive. I frequently travel there for examiners' meetings (of which there are hundreds at this time of year), many of which involve large numbers of the 60+ age group. If you say so. I'm still unconvinced that this is a major drain on resources, compared to people living within a 10-mile radius coming to Cambridge to shop. Bus-pass journeys starting outside the city of Cambridge are irrelevant, because they are not paid for by the city council. All of this has, in fact, been thoroughly discussed in parliament, where it was agreed that cities which are tourist centres are unfairly treated by the current grant arrangements - Cambridge, Norwich and Oxford were mentioned in particular (see Hansard for 26 January 2009). There really is no doubt that tourism is the main problem - particularly now that we have an increasingly mobile population over the age of 59 with time (and bus passes) on their hands. AIUI, the grant arrangements are being reviewed (hence the answer to the original question in this thread) with a view to making them more equitable. -- Paul Terry |
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