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Senior Pass acceptance
I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here
in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Graham Harrison" wrote in
message I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? It's similar if you have a paper travelcard, but I think the drivers press some sort of counter button. I don't know if they have different buttons for different types of pass. |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Recliner" wrote in message ... "Graham Harrison" wrote in message I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? It's similar if you have a paper travelcard, but I think the drivers press some sort of counter button. I don't know if they have different buttons for different types of pass. I did wonder about whether a button had been pushed so I started watching and didn't see anything but that doesn't mean nothing happened. |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 7 June, 13:17, "Recliner" wrote:
It's similar if you have a paper travelcard, but I think the drivers press some sort of counter button. I don't know if they have different buttons for different types of pass. They have a buzzer like Mr Burns in the Simpsons. |
Senior Pass acceptance
Graham Harrison wrote:
I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off! Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of Greater Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't. The operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average fare is agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no time do the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or destination stage. -- Visit my website: British Railways in 1960 http://www.britishrailways1960.co.uk |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Jun 7, 2:38*pm, "Graham Harrison"
wrote: "Recliner" wrote in message ... "Graham Harrison" wrote in m I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. * I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. * Was that correct? * How do London organise the funding? It's similar if you have a paper travelcard, but I think the drivers press some sort of counter button. I don't know if they have different buttons for different types of pass. I did wonder about whether a button had been pushed so I started watching and didn't see anything but that doesn't mean nothing happened. The drivers in London basically don't give a damn. I've seen them simply ignore bus passes. Sometimes if a lot of people get on they'll wait, and then just before driving away press a button on the ticket machine lots of times guessing how many passengers got on. But they NEVER gve you a ticket. CJB. |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 02:03:57 -0700 (PDT)
CJB wrote: I did wonder about whether a button had been pushed so I started watching and didn't see anything but that doesn't mean nothing happened. The drivers in London basically don't give a damn. I've seen them simply ignore bus passes. Sometimes if a lot of people get on they'll wait, and then just before driving away press a button on the ticket Can't blame them really. If you have the choice of finishing your shift on time or quibbling with some geriatric or some yoof copping an attitude and with a queue of 20 annoyed people wanting to board its a no brainer. machine lots of times guessing how many passengers got on. But they NEVER gve you a ticket. CJB. Unless you need to claim expenses whats the point of a ticket anyway? Its not like you need it to get off the bus like you need one to leave a lot of train stations. Just a waste of paper. B2003 |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 07/06/2010 21:41, Brian Robertson wrote: Graham Harrison wrote: I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off! Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of Greater Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't. The operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average fare is agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no time do the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or destination stage. For a while, First Manchester did issue tickets, but stopped doing so - I think someone decided it was causing delays to services by issuing lots of zero fare tickets. Practice varies even within the same group. Arriva's Bolton depot even asks your destination, which the driver enters into his machine and this is shown on the ticket. Some depots issue tickets, but do not ask your destination, and certain depots don't issue any tickets at all - the driver just presses a button on the ticket machine. To me it seems a waste of money to print lots of zero value tickets when you also have a bus pass to show to that rarity - a bus ticket travelling inspector. Bevan |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Bevan Price" wrote in message ... On 07/06/2010 21:41, Brian Robertson wrote: Graham Harrison wrote: I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off! Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of Greater Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't. The operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average fare is agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no time do the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or destination stage. For a while, First Manchester did issue tickets, but stopped doing so - I think someone decided it was causing delays to services by issuing lots of zero fare tickets. Practice varies even within the same group. Arriva's Bolton depot even asks your destination, which the driver enters into his machine and this is shown on the ticket. Some depots issue tickets, but do not ask your destination, and certain depots don't issue any tickets at all - the driver just presses a button on the ticket machine. To me it seems a waste of money to print lots of zero value tickets when you also have a bus pass to show to that rarity - a bus ticket travelling inspector. Bevan Depends on the agreement with the local authority???? After all, thay are picking up the tab (or are supposed to be).... In Reading, there seems to be two types of OAP free ticket issued - whether the OAP has a "local" or an "out-of-town" pass.... in Hampshire, IFAICS, a ticket is issued, and when the drivers module is downloaded at the end of the day, the bus co has some idea of how many OAP passes have been carried on each journey. Must help in the planning, and in the accounting for repayment from LA.... If issuing a "zero value" ticket IS important, from the bus co's point of view, then they WILL require the Road Inspectors to check that such tickets are being issued. And RIs DO exist. |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 07/06/2010 22:27, Ivor Jones wrote:
On 07/06/10 21:41, Brian Robertson wrote: Graham Harrison wrote: I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off! Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of Greater Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't. The operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average fare is agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no time do the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or destination stage. In the West Midlands we use the Wayfarer system. On the machine are buttons for various types of tickets and passes, when a pass holder boards the driver simply presses the appropriate button. The data from the machine is downloaded when the bus arrives back in garage and the appropriate amount is claimed from the PTE (Centro). There is no requirement (or even means) to issue a ticket. If anyone is familiar with the Transcend software package, it gives very detailed analysis/statistics on ticket/pass use. Ivor How is information from an Oyster card relayed when you tap in on a bus? If you are on pay as you go, for example, and change busses, then the indicator on the second bus already shows that previous fare was deducted from the first bus. |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 08/06/2010 14:22, Ian wrote:
"Bevan wrote in message ... On 07/06/2010 21:41, Brian Robertson wrote: Graham Harrison wrote: I don't use my Senior Pass a lot (we don't have that many buses round here in rural Somerset) but when I do I get issued with a ticket. I was in London at the weekend and the drivers there were happy to have me simply show it to them - didn't even have to place it on the Oyster reader. Was that correct? How do London organise the funding? Oh God, you'll start that old nutter from Preston off! Anyway, it runs like this in Manchester at least. In the south of Greater Manchester Stagecoach issue a ticket. In the north, First don't. The operators seem to have an agrement with the PTE where an average fare is agreed for an average number of passengers using the passes. At no time do the drivers of either company have to record a boarding or destination stage. For a while, First Manchester did issue tickets, but stopped doing so - I think someone decided it was causing delays to services by issuing lots of zero fare tickets. Practice varies even within the same group. Arriva's Bolton depot even asks your destination, which the driver enters into his machine and this is shown on the ticket. Some depots issue tickets, but do not ask your destination, and certain depots don't issue any tickets at all - the driver just presses a button on the ticket machine. To me it seems a waste of money to print lots of zero value tickets when you also have a bus pass to show to that rarity - a bus ticket travelling inspector. Bevan Depends on the agreement with the local authority???? After all, thay are picking up the tab (or are supposed to be).... In Reading, there seems to be two types of OAP free ticket issued - whether the OAP has a "local" or an "out-of-town" pass.... in Hampshire, IFAICS, a ticket is issued, and when the drivers module is downloaded at the end of the day, the bus co has some idea of how many OAP passes have been carried on each journey. Must help in the planning, and in the accounting for repayment from LA.... If issuing a "zero value" ticket IS important, from the bus co's point of view, then they WILL require the Road Inspectors to check that such tickets are being issued. And RIs DO exist. Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country? |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:10:25 +0100, "
wrote: How is information from an Oyster card relayed when you tap in on a bus? If you are on pay as you go, for example, and change busses, then the indicator on the second bus already shows that previous fare was deducted from the first bus. When a valid transaction is made the relevant info is updated on the card itself and also recorded in the bus ticket machine (or validator or ticket gate on rail or tram systems). The collected data is sent to the central system for accounting, usage and card transaction history purposes on rail and tram networks. For buses it is collected from the driver module when the driver completes his shift and signs off at the garage. The next time you use the card it is read by the next Oyster enabled device and depending on the rules you may or may not need to pay extra (e.g. in zone or you've reached your daily cap). None of this is particularly difficult. There is not any real time Oyster data transmission from buses to the centre or bus to bus. Obviously buses are in contact with the network control via radio and for I-Bus service management but I don't believe the system has sufficient capacity to provide secure financial transaction data transmission. -- Paul C |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:11:33 +0100, "
wrote: Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country? Very unlikely as the government has insisted that ITSO standards will apply everywhere else in the UK. It is funding the work to allow the Oyster system to read and process ITSO standard smartcards. In other parts of the country operators, councils or ITA (Integrated Transport Authorities - formerly PTEs) can choose to buy equipment that is compatible with the ITSO suite of standards and in theory interoperability should result. There is no funding to make Oyster cards readable on buses in Birmingham or Nottingham. I am a long way from being an expert on ITSO - I have yet to summon the enthusiasm to read hundreds of pages of information - but the key seems to lie in ensuring that the commercial ticket products are correctly defined and that operators agree common product definitions and programme their kit to recognise such things. I have yet to understand where the "industry body / bodies" are going to come from to ensure that a smartcard issued in Tyne in Wear by Go Ahead can also work on TfL services, on Southern trains to Brighton and then a Brighton and Hove bus. That example has 3 out of the 4 operators within the Go Ahead group where there are definite commitments to do something but how are Go Ahead going to make it work and then agree something with TfL? I would dearly love to have a smartcard that could work nationally on rail and on bus - I just fear it is one heck of a long way away from fruition. I'd not be surprised to see funding for ITSO development get killed in the spending review process on the basis that councils can do it locally or else the bus groups will do it privately. -- Paul C |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 8 June, 22:30, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:11:33 +0100, " wrote: Any chance that Oyster could used on other bus networks in the country? Very unlikely as the government has insisted that ITSO standards will apply everywhere else in the UK. It is funding the work to allow the Oyster system to read and process ITSO standard smartcards. *In other parts of the country operators, councils or ITA (Integrated Transport Authorities - formerly PTEs) can choose to buy equipment that is compatible with the ITSO suite of standards and in theory interoperability should result. * *There is no funding to make Oyster cards readable on buses in Birmingham or Nottingham. I am a long way from being an expert on ITSO - I have yet to summon the enthusiasm to read hundreds of pages of information - but the key seems to lie in ensuring that the commercial ticket products are correctly defined and that operators agree common product definitions and programme their kit to recognise such things. * I have yet to understand where the "industry body / bodies" are going to come from to ensure that a smartcard issued in Tyne in Wear by Go Ahead can also work on TfL services, on Southern trains to Brighton and then a Brighton and Hove bus. That example has 3 out of the 4 operators within the Go Ahead group where there are definite commitments to do something but how are Go Ahead going to make it work and then agree something with TfL? I would dearly love to have a smartcard that could work nationally on rail and on bus - I just fear it is one heck of a long way away from fruition. *I'd not be surprised to see funding for ITSO development get killed in the spending review process on the basis that councils can do it locally or else the bus groups will do it privately. -- Paul C now for my two penn'orth. Here in Scotland we have an ITSO-compliant contactless smartcard for use on public transport if disabled or over 60, until recently First Glasgow drivers didn't have to ask you where you planned to alight,but as of the past few months they do. McColl's of Dumbarton on the other hand always needed to know where you were getting off, even before the smartcards. |
Senior Pass acceptance
In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and
Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP / Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the origin or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue. Passengers holding multi-journey tickets are not issued with a separate ticket for each journey, but a button is pressed on the machine to account for their presence, as are those offering the return portion of a return ticket. Whether there are separate buttons for day returns, weekly/monthly/annual seasons, scholars passes etc, I'm not sure. Regards, Matt |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Matt J Forbes" wrote in message ... In Portsmouth, the two major operators (First Hants & Dorset and Stagecoach) issue zero fare tickets to those travelling on OAP / Disabled passes, but seemingly without taking into account the origin or destination of the journey in question. I'm no expert on these things, but I can only imagine that it must cause nightmares for the company accountants when billing the council for 'lost' revenue. The boarding point of the journey is what matters, as that determines which Local Authority will pick up the tab, and the ticket machine will already be set to the boarding stage. Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900. So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham, and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton. If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use their OAP pass..... Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't get home again, either, until after 0930. Unless, of course, they were willing to pay. And many are not willing to pay ANYTHING.... they would rather wait two hours than pay, say, £1.60 or so, to travel to a point from which they CAN travel onwards without further charge..... If you said to me, "I want you to stand there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt many other people, would tell you where to go!!! Passengers holding multi-journey tickets are not issued with a separate ticket for each journey, but a button is pressed on the machine to account for their presence, as are those offering the return portion of a return ticket. Whether there are separate buttons for day returns, weekly/monthly/annual seasons, scholars passes etc, I'm not sure. Sometimes they are, depends on the operator's policy. Regards, Matt |
Senior Pass acceptance
and the ticket machine
will already be set to the boarding stage. Duh - of course it will be. Why didn't that occur to me?! M |
Senior Pass acceptance
In message , Ian
writes If you said to me, "I want you to stand there for two hours, for which I will pay you £1.60", I, and no doubt many other people, would tell you where to go!!! I expect you would, but were you financially inactive, as are most pensioners like myself, things are very different. For £1.79 you can buy scrambled eggs on toast at Morrisson's it's not just a wait but a chance to get a meal inside of you. -- Clive |
Senior Pass acceptance
Ian wrote
Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA. So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00 they don't say. In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900. So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham, and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton. If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use their OAP pass..... Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't get home again, either, until after 0930. -- Mike D |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default... Ian wrote Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely different set of rules. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA. So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00 they don't say. In Southampton, OAPs could use their pass from 0900. So, at 0910, a Southampton OAP could get on a bus to, say, Fareham, and use it IF THEY boarded IN Southampton. If their friend - also lholding a Southampton pass - got on the same bus at the first stop after the bus had crossed the boundary into Eastleigh, (but *still before 0930*), then their friend could NOT use their OAP pass..... Certain LA's (to the west of Southampton) allowed OAP travel at any time... the OAP could get IN to Southampton, but not change onto another bus to continue eastwards unless it was after 0930. Couldn't get home again, either, until after 0930. -- Mike D |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Ian wrote Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA. So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00 they don't say. Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all* pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders - to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after 23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass holders. Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is route 465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route - so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day. There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline) accepts TfL tickets between New Barnet and Potters Bar, but it also then continues on beyond Potters Bar to St. Albans. Unfortunately a recent redesign of the fares section of the TfL website has resulted in detailed info for such routes vanishing. However, for the bare bones see the "Concessionary bus passes from outside London" section on this page: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14305.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-4 |
Senior Pass acceptance
Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Ian wrote Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. There are a few other wrinkles outside London. OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is not acceptable to the reader. The correct procedure is then to use the manual backup keying sequence Stagecoach Cambridge on one route now let the driver issue zero value fares after 9.25. This variant arose as it was an hourly frequency route with the bus timed at 9.26. but on school days often being late. A dispute then arose as to the actual time and delaying tactics being used on speed of boarding. |
Senior Pass acceptance
Alan Quick wrote on 12 June 2010 16:58:36 ...
Mizter T wrote: On Jun 11, 9:37 pm, "Michael R N wrote: wrote Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. There are a few other wrinkles outside London. OAPs on Whippet buses are required to place the pass on the smart card reader until the destination number can be keyed. A zero value ticket is then issued. The London freedom card, not being ITSO compliant, is not acceptable to the reader. London's Freedom Passes were all reissued recently. The new ones, valid from 1 April 2010, incorporate both ITSO and Oyster technology, and should be compatible with both systems. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Senior Pass acceptance
Mizter T wrote in
On Jun 11, 9:37*pm, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote: Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. Thus in London Freedom Pass and all English Pass holders can use their passes at any time on TfL buses when they board WITHIN the London AREA. So a Freedom or any English passholder can board a TfL bus in Kingston to go to Dorking at 08:00 but once past Chessington no one can get on for a free ride until after 09:00 since some Surrey District would have to pay. Whether they can use a (non-TfL) bus to Guildford before 09:00 they don't say. .. Sorry Michael but it ain't that simple. In London, TfL allow *all* pass holders - both Freedom Pass holders and ENCTS senior pass holders - to use their passes at any time (i.e. inc. before 09:30 and after 23:00) on London bus services. Other local authorities meanwhile may allow local pass holders 'extra' travel time (e.g. before 09:30) but enforce the 09:30 - 23:00 weekday time window on non-local ENCTS pass holders. Have you examples of "Other local authorities" that actually do this discrimination on buses ? Or a legal opinion on its allowability ? .. Also, with regards to your Kingston to Dorking example - this is route 465, and is operated (by Metrobus) for TfL, and is hence a full part of the London Bus network. As such, the TfL rules apply to this route - so all ENCTS pass holders (both Londoners and those from yonder the smoke) can use this bus service for free at ant time of the day. =quote http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/fre...here/buses.htm Your Freedom Pass is valid on most local buses (in the Greater London area) at any time of day or night. == In the Greater London area the London Borough where the F/ENCTS holder got on would be charged. Outside that area, eg if they got on in Leatherhead before 09:00, then acceptance would cause Mole Valley council to be charged and they have not agreed to pay. There are some routes on the fringes of London which are not part of the London Buses network, but where there are arrangements for the acceptance of TfL tickets for part of the route - the 84 (Metroline) [...] I have the pre-2009 download but for Senior Pass purposes it hardly matters except for the argument above wrt Twirlies since these are all local bus services. -- Mike D |
Senior Pass acceptance
Ian wrote in article . .. "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message news:01cb0994$b7750360$LocalHost@default... Ian wrote Fun and games can occur when a LA allows OAPs "extra" time before the 0930 official start.... they can ONLY allow the extra time to their OWN OAPs, not to those who come in from other areas. The examples below are correct but not your above expression of the principle. beg to differ.... what you are (correctly) demonstarting is that different LAs have different ules. And London has a completely different set of rules. Not OWN OAPs but rather concession BusPass holders boarding in that LA's AREA. My point, which I have obviously not made clear, is that the LA rules are area rules and apply to bus boardings /in their own area/ rather than Own Holders in own area. -- Mike D |
Senior Pass acceptance
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Senior Pass acceptance
Broadly speaking, there are two ways in use for dealing with the accounting
issues. *One is to count every use (eg by pressing a button or issuing a zero-priced ticket) and the other is to sample the traffic from time to time and extrapolate. This is my point. It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus. Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made - which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops down the road. M |
Senior Pass acceptance
On 15 June, 11:01, Matt J Forbes wrote:
Broadly speaking, there are two ways in use for dealing with the accounting issues. *One is to count every use (eg by pressing a button or issuing a zero-priced ticket) and the other is to sample the traffic from time to time and extrapolate. This is my point. *It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus. Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as zero-fare. *This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made - which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops down the road. M This is apparently what SPT or the entire Scottish scheme seems to be attempting. |
Senior Pass acceptance
Matt J Forbes wrote in
: It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus. Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made - which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops down the road. Pressing the buttons is the relatively easy bit, though at the moment I doubt many ticket machines have the capability to accept the identity of the issuing authority, even supposing the driver can correctly interpret whether its a district operating within a county scheme or a unitary authority doing it for itself. You then need to dump the data at the depot (coping with corrupt data, late data, fraud etc etc), using different software for each of the various types of ticket machines you have, more software to merge the datasets, and probably an arrangement with a clearing house to accept all your data and partition it out to the various issuing authorities. Then you have to invoice them, and track and chase the invoices, deal with questions and audits and so on. It's all doable, but not cheap to buy or maintain. ITSO is also not cheap, but the theory is that if all the bus companies and LAs subscribe to it, there will at least be some economies of scale, uniformity of data and a measure of fraud control. Scotland is making some progress with that. As with many schemes which increase the accuracy of a payment from A to B, one side is likely to gain from the change and one will lose. Unless both sides reckon they will be the winner it may be difficult to get agreement to the change. Peter -- | Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK | |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Peter Campbell Smith" wrote in message ... Matt J Forbes wrote in : It seems to take a knowledgeable driver a fraction of a second to press a few buttons, in order enter a destination, fare type, and issue a ticket, when a fare-paying passenger boards a bus. Surely, for accounting purposes, it would be much more accurate for the driver to do the same for LA passes, only issuing the ticket as zero-fare. This way, the company will be able to bill the LA for the journies actually made, rather than just number of journies made - which could be the entire length of a route, or just one or two stops down the road. Pressing the buttons is the relatively easy bit, though at the moment I doubt many ticket machines have the capability to accept the identity of the issuing authority, even supposing the driver can correctly interpret whether its a district operating within a county scheme or a unitary authority doing it for itself. You then need to dump the data at the depot (coping with corrupt data, late data, fraud etc etc), using different software for each of the various types of ticket machines you have, more software to merge the datasets, and probably an arrangement with a clearing house to accept all your data and partition it out to the various issuing authorities. Then you have to invoice them, and track and chase the invoices, deal with questions and audits and so on. It's all doable, but not cheap to buy or maintain. ITSO is also not cheap, but the theory is that if all the bus companies and LAs subscribe to it, there will at least be some economies of scale, uniformity of data and a measure of fraud control. Scotland is making some progress with that. As with many schemes which increase the accuracy of a payment from A to B, one side is likely to gain from the change and one will lose. Unless both sides reckon they will be the winner it may be difficult to get agreement to the change. Peter -- | Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK | Whoa..... If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that pass, who pays? Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy with that. |
Senior Pass acceptance
In message , Graham Harrison
writes If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that pass, who pays? The London boroughs. In the same way that if I used my London Freedom pass in Somerset, then Somerset County Council pay (although local authorities get quite a substantial government grant towards the cost). Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy with that. In London, the London Boroughs agree a lump sum with TfL (£251 million for the current year, of which the bus element is £188.6 million). This payment covers the use of both Freedom passes and National Concessionary Permits throughout the area. I imagine that it is reckoned that use of National bus passes within London roughly balances the use of Freedom passes outside of London, so there is no clearing house system of passing relatively small amounts of money between councils for "out of area" use of passes. I've always assumed that the National Concessionary Permit scheme works similarly outside of London - local councils agree a lump sum with the bus operator(s) concerned. No doubt this is verified by means of sampling, but I doubt that it would be worth collecting data on every individual journey in order to calculate the precise sums involved. -- Paul Terry |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Jun 15, 6:10 pm, "Graham Harrison" wrote: [snip] Whoa..... If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that pass, who pays? [...] The underlying principle of ENCTS is that the local authority in which the journey takes place (or at least starts in) pays. The arrangements in London are a bit different to the rest of England, as (pretty much all) local bus are regulated and operate under contract to TfL. The London Boroughs collectively (all 32 of them, plus the City of London Corporation) - pay TfL a sum for concessionary travel, whilst this has always covered concessionary travel for Londoners (under the London Freedom Pass scheme) my understanding is that this payment now also covers concessionary travel for ENCTS pass holders from outwith London, as per the principle I outlined above. (This collective payment from the Boroughs to TfL is actually made through "London Councils", which is the local government association for London, who manage the concessionary travel scheme on behalf of the Boroughs.) Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy with that. My understanding is that at present the amount of concessionary travel that happens on London's bus network is actually assessed by surveys done by TfL in association with London Councils, rather than as a result of feedback from button presses on the bus ticket machine. Indeed I don't think (though couldn't say for certain) there's a specific button that gets pressed to register an ENCTS pass is presented - I *think* it's just the generic 'TfL pass' button. (If you're quick you might be able to see what is shown on the ticket machine's LCD display - "LRT pass" is I think still the generic description associated with this.) As and when the smartcard readers on London's buses are upgraded to be ITSO compatible (as at present they can only read 'Oyster-type' cards), then TfL will be able to require ENCTS pass holders to 'touch- in' just like Oyster card users, and with London Councils will be able to analyse data for concessionary travel usage and patterns far more precisely. But we're not there yet. With regards to the contractual payments made to the actual bus operator by TfL for running the service, then this won't have anything to do with how many passengers were travelling using concessionary passes. TfL pays bus operators on a broadly gross cost basis under a scheme called "Quality Incentive Contracts", under which TfL takes the full revenue risk and operators don't keep any of the farebox takings. As you can see, this element is very different to the deregulated bus world outside London. Incidentally, if you wish to know more about how things operate in London, then TfL produced this primer document entitled "London"s Bus Contracting and Tendering Process" which outlines it all - see (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/businessan...ing-feb-09.pdf or via http://tinyurl.com/a7ar39 |
Senior Pass acceptance
On Jun 15, 6:56*pm, Paul Terry wrote: In message , Graham Harrison writes If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that pass, who pays? The London boroughs. In the same way that if I used my London Freedom pass in Somerset, then Somerset County Council pay (although local authorities get quite a substantial government grant towards the cost). Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. * Oh and I didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy with that. In London, the London Boroughs agree a lump sum with TfL (£251 million for the current year, of which the bus element is £188.6 million). This payment covers the use of both Freedom passes and National Concessionary Permits throughout the area. I imagine that it is reckoned that use of National bus passes within London roughly balances the use of Freedom passes outside of London, so there is no clearing house system of passing relatively small amounts of money between councils for "out of area" use of passes. AIUI there isn't any sort of 'clearing house' system in operation anywhere in England - local authorities have to stump up for ENCTS pass usage in their area regardless of where the pass holder comes from and there's no system of recompense from that pass holders own local authority. I'm no expert at all but I understand this led to problems in tourist/ well visited areas, an example that was cited being Blackpool where lots of non-locals were making use of the free concessionary travel, with Blackpool Council being landed with the bill. I think things were tweaked so local authorities in areas where this happened (such as Blackpool) get more money from the DfT to help them out. (Not a clearing house system, more a recognition of need/demand.) Others here will be far more expert on all this. I've always assumed that the National Concessionary Permit scheme works similarly outside of London - local councils agree a lump sum with the bus operator(s) concerned. No doubt this is verified by means of sampling, but I doubt that it would be worth collecting data on every individual journey in order to calculate the precise sums involved. |
Senior Pass acceptance
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Jun 15, 6:10 pm, "Graham Harrison" wrote: [snip] Whoa..... If I (with a Somerset County Council pass) travel on a London bus using that pass, who pays? [...] The underlying principle of ENCTS is that the local authority in which the journey takes place (or at least starts in) pays. The arrangements in London are a bit different to the rest of England, as (pretty much all) local bus are regulated and operate under contract to TfL. The London Boroughs collectively (all 32 of them, plus the City of London Corporation) - pay TfL a sum for concessionary travel, whilst this has always covered concessionary travel for Londoners (under the London Freedom Pass scheme) my understanding is that this payment now also covers concessionary travel for ENCTS pass holders from outwith London, as per the principle I outlined above. (This collective payment from the Boroughs to TfL is actually made through "London Councils", which is the local government association for London, who manage the concessionary travel scheme on behalf of the Boroughs.) Based on what happened to me when I did it the driver made no attempt to determine where I was from and unless he was Superman I doubt very much if he was able to read the pass given that it was in the bit of my wallet with a little window which obscured the pass enough for him to see it was a pass and the date on it but not much more. Oh and I didn't go out of my way to shove it under his nose I just flashed and he seemed quite happy with that. My understanding is that at present the amount of concessionary travel that happens on London's bus network is actually assessed by surveys done by TfL in association with London Councils, rather than as a result of feedback from button presses on the bus ticket machine. Indeed I don't think (though couldn't say for certain) there's a specific button that gets pressed to register an ENCTS pass is presented - I *think* it's just the generic 'TfL pass' button. (If you're quick you might be able to see what is shown on the ticket machine's LCD display - "LRT pass" is I think still the generic description associated with this.) As and when the smartcard readers on London's buses are upgraded to be ITSO compatible (as at present they can only read 'Oyster-type' cards), then TfL will be able to require ENCTS pass holders to 'touch- in' just like Oyster card users, and with London Councils will be able to analyse data for concessionary travel usage and patterns far more precisely. But we're not there yet. With regards to the contractual payments made to the actual bus operator by TfL for running the service, then this won't have anything to do with how many passengers were travelling using concessionary passes. TfL pays bus operators on a broadly gross cost basis under a scheme called "Quality Incentive Contracts", under which TfL takes the full revenue risk and operators don't keep any of the farebox takings. As you can see, this element is very different to the deregulated bus world outside London. Incidentally, if you wish to know more about how things operate in London, then TfL produced this primer document entitled "London"s Bus Contracting and Tendering Process" which outlines it all - see (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/businessan...ing-feb-09.pdf or via http://tinyurl.com/a7ar39 Thank you one and all. |
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Senior Pass acceptance
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote: In message , at 17:34:28 on Wed, 16 Jun 2010, remarked: Meanwhile councils like mine have experienced real financial chaos from this scheme. Not hysteria but reality. It'll be OK now that your people are in power, presumably? I doubt it. The pattern of affected councils is pretty all-party but the changes were brought in by the last government which, to be fair eventually realised its mistake. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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