|
Cycle hire
The Mayor's new cycle hire station at the east end of Southwark Street
looks complete, if anyone's interested. |
Cycle hire
On Jun 22, 12:35*pm, Basil Jet wrote: The Mayor's new cycle hire station at the east end of Southwark Street looks complete, if anyone's interested. It is - it's the one outside the new-ish Blue Fin building. I went and had a look at it last week. There's another one just the other side of Blackfriars Road on Stamford Street, outside King's Reach Tower, that also looked finished, but was surrounded by fencing, so perhaps not quite there yet. In several other locations the preparatory work has been done, resulting in there being metal base plates ready and awaiting the next stage of installation of the docking station. No bikes yet of course - they'll come later, and the system goes live on 30 July. I've a more lengthy post gestating in my head about the Cycle Hire scheme - must get on with putting fingers to keyboard and post it soon! |
Cycle hire
On 22/06/2010 21:41, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:35:19 +0100, Basil Jet wrote: The Mayor's new cycle hire station at the east end of Southwark Street looks complete, if anyone's interested. And TfL leaflets about the hire scheme have started to appear in tube station leaflet racks. I picked one up this morning. They have/had something like that in Copenhagen, which I saw. The bicycles were not in a good way, I might note. Didn't they have a scheme like that in Paris, and the bicycles simply disappeared? |
Cycle hire
|
Cycle hire
On Jun 22, 9:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:35:19 +0100, Basil Jet wrote: The Mayor's new cycle hire station at the east end of Southwark Street looks complete, if anyone's interested. And TfL leaflets about the hire scheme have started to appear in tube station leaflet racks. I picked one up this morning. Good stuff. I know in the grand scheme of things that it's not all that, that it's not some magic wand that;s going to solve all transport issues, that it'll suffer all manner of teething issues, that it'll get hyped mercilessly by Boris and Co, that it'll provide plentiful opportunities for generating bad press, and not just bad press but bad things that may (nay, will, at least in some cases) happen as a result, but nonetheless I find this a very interesting and exciting scheme, one that has quite a bit of potential to make good things happen rather beyond the narrow confines of the scheme itself. As I said upthread, there's a long overdue post that's been floating round my head about this scheme that I must get round to, well, posting sometime soon! That, plus my 'trip report' on the new countdown pedestrian crossing on Blackfriars Rd that I 'did' on the opening day (that's yesterday)! Oh, and various thoughts on the ELLX too... fx: sound of utl-ers furiously adding one "Mizter T" to their kill files lest they keel over from boredom! |
Cycle hire
In message akaUn.10530$NM4.4173@hurricane, at 22:56:22 on Tue, 22 Jun
2010, " remarked: The Mayor's new cycle hire station at the east end of Southwark Street looks complete, if anyone's interested. And TfL leaflets about the hire scheme have started to appear in tube station leaflet racks. I picked one up this morning. They have/had something like that in Copenhagen, which I saw. The bicycles were not in a good way, I might note. Didn't they have a scheme like that in Paris, and the bicycles simply disappeared? I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Here in Brussels they have a scheme, this is a rather jolly advert for them (I presume): http://www.flickr.com/photos/46604657@N00/270337240 But I did note a rack outside the Central Station was completely empty yesterday. -- Roland Perry |
Cycle hire
Roland Perry wrote:
I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Lausanne is built on a rather large hill. I imagine all the bikes drift to the bottom, so some kind of rebalancing is required. I imagine that isn't so much a problem in London or Paris, though perhaps they will end up congregating at other places? Cardiff has the beginnings of a similar scheme: http://www.oybike.com Theo (who notes that the Lausanne metro has a special section for bikes, which might help with the hill problem) |
Cycle hire
On 24/06/2010 11:07, Theo Markettos wrote:
Roland wrote: I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Lausanne is built on a rather large hill. I imagine all the bikes drift to the bottom, so some kind of rebalancing is required. I imagine that isn't so much a problem in London or Paris, though perhaps they will end up congregating at other places? Cardiff has the beginnings of a similar scheme: http://www.oybike.com Theo (who notes that the Lausanne metro has a special section for bikes, which might help with the hill problem) Especially if they give a small discount for people with rented bikes. |
Cycle hire
In message , at 11:07:28 on Thu,
24 Jun 2010, Theo Markettos remarked: I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Lausanne is built on a rather large hill. And the metro stations are sloping. I tried to take a picture but it's very difficult to capture the angles properly. I imagine all the bikes drift to the bottom, so some kind of rebalancing is required. Theo (who notes that the Lausanne metro has a special section for bikes, which might help with the hill problem) The man I saw was filling the racks just outside the Metro station at the bottom of the hill (by the harbour)! Of course, they have such good public transport, it makes you wonder why they also need a bike scheme. -- Roland Perry |
Cycle hire
Theo Markettos wrote on 24 June 2010
11:07:28 ... Roland wrote: I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Lausanne is built on a rather large hill. I imagine all the bikes drift to the bottom, so some kind of rebalancing is required. I imagine that isn't so much a problem in London or Paris ... In Paris it's certainly a problem at Montmartre, where bikes have to be taken by truck back to the top of the hill. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
Cycle hire
On 24/06/2010 11:07, Theo Markettos wrote:
Roland wrote: I saw one in Lausanne recently, where a chap was assiduously filling up empty racks from a trailer (I did wonder what the carbon efficiency of that was in the event he drives a few miles to deliver just one bike... but no doubt over time it works out. Lausanne is built on a rather large hill. I imagine all the bikes drift to the bottom, so some kind of rebalancing is required. I imagine that isn't so much a problem in London or Paris, though perhaps they will end up congregating at other places? Somewhere in Norway has a clever uphill-o-matic thing for cyclists to use. There are videos online. There is also a Paris style bike hire scheme in Caen - I looked at using it the other day, but there wasn't a "station" near where I was going. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Cycle hire
On 24/06/2010 22:51, Ian Jelf wrote:
I agree the public transport is pretty decent but there is scope for further improvement. What is interesting is that a good cross section of society uses it - it doesn't seem to be seen as "a distress purchase". That is a very Swiss (and Austrian) thing, generally lacking elsewhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Buses in Bromley are full of people who look like they have other options. |
Cycle hire
On 25/06/2010 00:16, Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Basil Jet writes On 24/06/2010 22:51, Ian Jelf wrote: I agree the public transport is pretty decent but there is scope for further improvement. What is interesting is that a good cross section of society uses it - it doesn't seem to be seen as "a distress purchase". That is a very Swiss (and Austrian) thing, generally lacking elsewhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Buses in Bromley are full of people who look like they have other options. You don't mean the Bromley near Brierley Hill/Kingswinford, do you? No, the London Borough. In Kent. ;-) |
Cycle hire
On Jun 25, 1:17*am, Basil Jet wrote: On 25/06/2010 00:16, Ian Jelf wrote: In message , Basil Jet writes On 24/06/2010 22:51, Ian Jelf wrote: I agree the public transport is pretty decent but there is scope for further improvement. What is interesting is that a good cross section of society uses it - it doesn't seem to be seen as "a distress purchase". That is a very Swiss (and Austrian) thing, generally lacking elsewhere, to a greater or lesser extent. Buses in Bromley are full of people who look like they have other options. You don't mean the Bromley near Brierley Hill/Kingswinford, do you? No, the London Borough. In Kent. ;-) It's about time we had another massive, circular debate about what does and doesn't constitute London. Not! John's point is right, of course - in many cases the *car* is the "distress" option. |
Cycle hire
Basil Jet wrote:
Especially if they give a small discount for people with rented bikes. If you stay in any hotel (even the youth hostel) in Lausanne you get a free travel pass for the duration, so that generally isn't a problem for the tourist :) Theo |
Cycle hire
On Jun 25, 10:57*pm, Ian Jelf wrote:
The Swiss teach children in school how to read public transport timetables, a simple and not particularly onerous task which results in a Genuinely Useful skill for life, I've always thought. Apparently we may already do such a thing he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/14/bus_test/ |
Cycle hire
Ian Jelf wrote
The Swiss teach children in school how to read public transport timetables, a simple and not particularly onerous task which results in a Genuinely Useful skill for life, I've always thought. Apparently we may already do such a thing he http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/14/bus_test/ Funny that the UK public (or media at any rate) are "bemused" by such a concept. That said, I would have liked the blurb to make more of the *planning* of the journey, to bring us up to Swiss standards....... Using timetables seems to be in Key Stage 2 of the National Curriculum http://www.eco-schoolsni.org/media/9...94144c43dTrans link%2520keystage-2.pdf http://www.mychild.co.uk/downloads/maths-worksheets Math worksheets - Time to Go! Using one of our math worksheets will help your child to use 24-hour clock notation and use a timetable. -- Mike D |
Cycle hire
On Jun 26, 10:57*pm, Ian Jelf wrote: In message 01cb1576$430ada20$LocalHost@default, Michael R N Dolbear writes [snip] http://www.mychild.co.uk/downloads/maths-worksheets Math worksheets - Time to Go! Using one of our math worksheets will help your child to use 24-hour clock notation and use a timetable. Er *math* worksheets? * One step forward with life skills, one step back with British English....... What's odd is that the website uses the term "maths worksheets", except seemingly in the case of this "Time to Go!" worksheet. The "My Child" website is an independent, commercial operation. |
Cycle hire
On 25/06/2010 23:13, Theo Markettos wrote:
Basil wrote: Especially if they give a small discount for people with rented bikes. If you stay in any hotel (even the youth hostel) in Lausanne you get a free travel pass for the duration, so that generally isn't a problem for the tourist :) It's some years since I went, but IIRC it was Lausanne where the Youth Hostel was about one or two stops outside the zone where the ticket was valid! -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Cycle hire
On 22 June, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:35*pm, Basil Jet wrote: The Mayor's new cyclehirestation at the east end of Southwark Street looks complete, if anyone's interested. It is - it's the one outside the new-ish Blue Fin building. I went and had a look at it last week. There's another one just the other side of Blackfriars Road on Stamford Street, outside King's Reach Tower, that also looked finished, but was surrounded by fencing, so perhaps not quite there yet. In several other locations the preparatory work has been done, resulting in there being metal base plates ready and awaiting the next stage of installation of the docking station. No bikes yet of course - they'll come later, and the system goes live on 30 July. I've a more lengthy post gestating in my head about the CycleHirescheme - must get on with putting fingers to keyboard and post it soon! I've noticed some Things in Tavistock Place. The first I'd noticed, but I probably hadn't been paying attention. No bikes yet. They aren't covered (and apparently people have been mistaking them for parking meters). |
Cycle hire
On Jul 17, 1:01*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:27:45 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 22 June, 14:36, Mizter T wrote: No bikes yet of course - they'll come later, and the system goes live on 30 July. I've a more lengthy post gestating in my head about the CycleHirescheme - must get on with putting fingers to keyboard and post it soon! I've noticed some Things in Tavistock Place. *The first I'd noticed, but I probably hadn't been paying attention. *No bikes yet. They aren't covered (and apparently people have been mistaking them for parking meters). Ha, yes, I hadn't thought that that might happen, but the "Things" - the 'payment column' unit - do look a bit like parking ticket machines. Once the bikes themselves arrive on the racks then perhaps the potential for such confusions might be lessened. I have yet to see a parking bay and totem for the scheme with my own eyes. However I do keep seeing them in the background of Flickr photos or on the telly. There's a number around, not sure of what percentage has been completed yet. There are also several sites where the groundwork has been done, and there are metal 'base plates' awaiting the installation of the racks themselves, and the 'payment column'. I know there are some planning permission issues with regards to some of the sites, but there are also other sites on which work has only recently begun, and I *think* some others where nothing on the ground appears to have happened yet - but I suppose if that may be explained, at least in some cases, by the location only being a provisional one or the information I've looked at being out-of-date. I did see someone riding past 55 Broadway yesterday lunchtime on one of the new bikes. It did make me pause and think as to whether the scheme was live yet. No, the system goes live on Friday 30 July, just under two weeks away. Meanwhile the first two "Cycle Superhighways" officially 'open' this Monday (19 July). I'll try and write something about them shortly. I still can't my head round the charging model although I've not devoted a lot of brain power to understanding it. [...] It's not really all that complicated - see the fees and charges on this page: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/12444.aspx First off you need to pay an "access fee" to be able to use the system - this is £1 for 24-hours or £5 for seven days, or else £45 for a year's membership. Then you pay for how long you use the bike - no charge for up to half an hour, £1 for up to an hour, then it starts to jump up somewhat at £4 for an hour and a half etc etc (see the table for details). The thinking that users will only borrow the bikes for a short period of of time (to make a journey across central London), and will return them to a dock once they get 'there' - the charging model is thus intended to ensure that bikes stay in circulation and remain available for other users. All the other bike hire schemes in major cities (of which there are now several in Europe and around the world) seem to broadly follow this principle. The cycle hire scheme only really covers zone 1 plus a little bit extra in parts so hirers should be able to get from one side to the other within an hour (it'll be interesting to see how many might 'split their journey' though and return and then re-rent a bike at an intermediate docking station so as to remain within the 'free' half- hour!) [...] It's going to be very interesting to see how it goes. I'm still not sure whether I think it is a good idea in principle or just a waste of money scheme from a Mayor who loves cycling. I basically think it's a great idea for lots of reasons, and I don't think it being something of a pet project of Mayor Boris invalidates it either! FWIW, I think that Ken was warm to such an idea too, and he was generally pretty keen on cycling measures even if he wasn't himself a cyclist. The fact that many other cities now boast similar schemes would, I think, inevitably have meant that a cycle hire scheme for London is something that would have been seriously considered before too long, were it not for the current Mayor taking it forward now. And in a sense, the fact that it's being taken forward by a Tory Mayor could work in its favour, by defusing some of the inevitable criticism that will come its way. Lastly, I'm pretty sure that TfL wouldn't have been faced with a totally blank sheet of paper when the edict came down to implement such a scheme - I'm sure some preliminary investigations had already been done. A recent press release was very careful to mention the possibility of "teething problems" which is a subtle way of trying to defuse the inevitable furore when a journalist can't get a bike out of a rack or finds a rack full and has to cycle to the next one to end his trip. I think it's just an honest take on all the various teething problems that I think will inevitably occur - and one can easily imagine a whole gamut of them. In a sense I suppose that's spin through honestly and lowering expectations that all will be perfect from the word go, but with something so novel I think it'd be rather foolish to promise everything would be hunky-dory right from the beginning. |
Cycle hire
In message
, Mizter T writes No, the system goes live on Friday 30 July, just under two weeks away. Meanwhile the first two "Cycle Superhighways" officially 'open' this Monday (19 July). I'll try and write something about them shortly. That will be the existing cycle path near here that's suddenly been painted bright blue? -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
Cycle hire
|
Cycle hire
|
Cycle hire
In article , ] (Steve
Fitzgerald) wrote: In message , Mizter T writes No, the system goes live on Friday 30 July, just under two weeks away. Meanwhile the first two "Cycle Superhighways" officially 'open' this Monday (19 July). I'll try and write something about them shortly. That will be the existing cycle path near here that's suddenly been painted bright blue? Oh, it that what the blue bits are about, is it? They only seemed to run orthogonally to anywhere I wanted to ride this week. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Cycle hire
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:27:45 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote: On 22 June, 14:36, Mizter T wrote: No bikes yet of course - they'll come later, and the system goes live on 30 July. I've a more lengthy post gestating in my head about the CycleHirescheme - must get on with putting fingers to keyboard and post it soon! I've noticed some Things in Tavistock Place. The first I'd noticed, but I probably hadn't been paying attention. No bikes yet. They aren't covered (and apparently people have been mistaking them for parking meters). I have yet to see a parking bay and totem for the scheme with my own eyes. There are two near my office - one on Bishopsgate and one on Commercial Street, i think, with stelae and stands. There's plumbing for one on my commute, on New North Road where it forks off from the road down to Old Street, but it's not complete yet. None have bikes. I still can't my head round the charging model although I've not devoted a lot of brain power to understanding it. I see the indefatigable Mr T has explained all downthread. But basically, the take-home point is that short trips are cheap, and long trips are disproportionately expensive, with the break between short and long being at about an hour. It's going to be very interesting to see how it goes. I'm still not sure whether I think it is a good idea in principle or just a waste of money scheme It could be both. I'm confident it will not be good value for money in terms of travel. It will certainly do nothing to help existing cyclists - we already have bikes! - or potential cyclists who could commute in from the suburbs, where there won't be any Things. It might enable modal shift from bus and tube to bike for the terminal legs of commutes that come into London by surface rail; i have a hard time seeing people switching from tube to bike if they're already underground when they arrive in town. It will be useful for tourists, and for people who live and work in zone 1 - students, perhaps? from a Mayor who loves cycling. I wish people would stop saying that. If Boris really loved cycling, there are all sorts of things he could do to make it safer, easier, and more popular. Like not deciding to disband the Commercial Vehicle Education Unit, which was the only police unit which actually enforced safety rules on lorries. I know there was a minor furore over that - i don't know if the decision was eventually reversed. Either way, he could also be spending the money he's spending on absurd blue paint on something else, providing more cycle parking on streets, pushing for more cycle capacity on trains serving London, making sure the planning rules about cycle parking are actually enforced, and so on. Instead, he's just chasing headlines. tom -- And dear lord, its like peaches in a lacy napkin. -- James Dearden |
Cycle hire
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Steve Fitzgerald wrote:
In message , Mizter T writes No, the system goes live on Friday 30 July, just under two weeks away. Meanwhile the first two "Cycle Superhighways" officially 'open' this Monday (19 July). I'll try and write something about them shortly. That will be the existing cycle path near here that's suddenly been painted bright blue? Exactly. Christ. tom -- megaptera novae angliae, soundwork chris draper, push, pull, open, .. |
Cycle hire
|
Cycle hire
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:03:30 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: from a Mayor who loves cycling. I wish people would stop saying that. If Boris really loved cycling, there are all sorts of things he could do to make it safer, easier, and more popular. Like not deciding to disband the Commercial Vehicle Education Unit, which was the only police unit which actually enforced safety rules on lorries. I know there was a minor furore over that - i don't know if the decision was eventually reversed. Either way, he could also be spending the money he's spending on absurd blue paint on something else, providing more cycle parking on streets, pushing for more cycle capacity on trains serving London, making sure the planning rules about cycle parking are actually enforced, and so on. Instead, he's just chasing headlines. Well, he is a journalist. Of sorts. |
Cycle hire
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:19:41 -0500, wrote:
And membership? Members have a key and I expect will either have bought annual access or there might be some automatic charge you for a day if you use it scheme. Also, does anyone know how one finds the nearest stand to a particular address? TfL haven't really published the list in a friendly way yet. I expect that is because they don't really know which stations will be live on the 30th until they have finished the installs and found the ones with broken telephone lines or whatever. There have been various lists of planned locations published, one of which is linked to with a map at http://cyclehireapp.com/locations.html David |
Cycle hire
In message ,
writes And membership? AIUI, the key is only available to those who become members, but it's not entirely clear. Also, does anyone know how one finds the nearest stand to a particular address? I might use this between King's Cross station and the office. I've seen a stand across from the station in Belgrove St but haven't seen any near my office which is off Great Peter St. http://westminster.londoninformer.co...epares-to.html I should think either Smith Square or Abbey Orchard Street would be the nearest (or possibly Greycourt Lane if you are at the Pimlico end of Gt Peter St) -- Paul Terry |
Cycle hire
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, David Walters wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:42:11 -0500, wrote: I'm confused too. Maybe Paul has the same problem. It's how the "access fee" of up the ?45 a year and membership and the "Key fee" of ?3 relate. My understanding is you don't need a key and can hire a bike with your credit card but can opt to have a key if you like which will speed up the hire process. The payment station takes credit cards, and keys, But not Oyster? What are these key things? Why is the cycle hire scheme not on Oyster? If you have a key you can short circuit the payment station and insert it into a reader next to your chosen bike, enter your PIN and ride into the sunset. I suppose the key readers are cheaper than an Oyster reader; you might not want to buy an Oyster pad for every stand. tom -- Suddenly, everything is clear ... |
Cycle hire
In article ,
(David Walters) wrote: On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:19:41 -0500, wrote: And membership? Members have a key and I expect will either have bought annual access or there might be some automatic charge you for a day if you use it scheme. Hmm. That's what's confusing me. The keys are mentioned as available separately for a £3 charge. No link there to membership. I wonder whether businesses will be able to take out memberships for casual use by their staff, for example? Also, does anyone know how one finds the nearest stand to a particular address? TfL haven't really published the list in a friendly way yet. I expect that is because they don't really know which stations will be live on the 30th until they have finished the installs and found the ones with broken telephone lines or whatever. There have been various lists of planned locations published, one of which is linked to with a map at http://cyclehireapp.com/locations.html Thanks. Looks like Smith Square will be the nearest to work. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Cycle hire
In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote: In message , writes And membership? AIUI, the key is only available to those who become members, but it's not entirely clear. I think that's where we started! Also, does anyone know how one finds the nearest stand to a particular address? I might use this between King's Cross station and the office. I've seen a stand across from the station in Belgrove St but haven't seen any near my office which is off Great Peter St. http://westminster.londoninformer.co...heme-prepares- to.html I should think either Smith Square or Abbey Orchard Street would be the nearest (or possibly Greycourt Lane if you are at the Pimlico end of Gt Peter St) Thanks. As in another comment of mine, Smith Square will be much nearer than Abbey Orchard St as my office is quite close to Millbank. Curiously I've not noticed works in Smith Square and I've been there a couple of times in recent weeks. Must be hidden away in a corner I don't go to, by the old Tory Central Office perhaps. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Cycle hire
On 18/07/2010 13:10, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, David Walters wrote: The payment station takes credit cards, and keys, But not Oyster? Maybe the deposit is more than anyone has on their Oyster card. |
Cycle hire
On 18/07/2010 01:03, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Paul Corfield wrote: from a Mayor who loves cycling. I wish people would stop saying that. I wish you'd stop saying that any Mayor who doesn't spend his entire budget on cycling is a cycle hater! :-) |
Cycle hire
|
Cycle hire
In message , Paul Corfield
writes Even the Standard has been quite ferocious on the lorry / bicycle accident issue in London and I don't think we have a coherent position from City Hall about to properly deal with increasing cycling and having huge lorries on the road. May be a course of cycle proficiency would be in order, as it should instruct cyclists that stopping at the left side of a lorry about to turn left is not in there best interest, if they are looking for a long life. -- Clive |
Cycle hire
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 10:29 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk