On 20/07/2010 10:24, Robin wrote:
skyguy wrote:
The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but ...

Well this *is* the same organisation which tells travellers that "dogs
must be carried" before they may use an escalator

Well, they must!

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging
either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an
uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on
the tram without a touch in.

That bit I understand, I think.

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at
Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve
any touching? But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is
beyond me...

-roy

On Jul 21, 12:41*am, Roy Badami wrote:

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging
either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an
uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on
the tram without a touch in.

That bit I understand, I think.

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. *I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? *Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the
automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and
this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram
stop is within a gated paid-for area.)


AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at
Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve
any touching? *But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is
beyond me...

You've got that wrong - pax transferring from Tramlink to the Tube or
NR should touch on one of the interchange validators in order to start
their Tube/NR PAYG journey (but not, I think, the validators on the
Tram platform - these validate one for tram travel only).

Going the other way pax should also touch on one of the interchange
validators in order to end their Tube/NR PAYG journey, then touch on
one of the validators on the tram platform to pay for their tram fare.
(I'm not sure if just a single touch on the validator on the Tramlink
platform would serve to both end the Tube/NR journey and pay for the
forthcoming tram journey, but it'd be neat if it did.)

The thing is, in fares terms, the tram is basically a bus. My
understanding is that if you were to touch-in at Ampere Way tram stop,
then transfer at Wimbledon to say the District line to Fulham Broadway
without touching anywhere, then you'd have properly paid your tram
fare, but that's it - you wouldn't have begun a Tube PAYG journey so
would get hit with an unresolved journey charge on exit at Fulham
B'way, and furthermore would have been travelling without a proper
ticket from Wimbledon up to Fulham B'way (hence liable to a PF).

The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram
plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's
say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram
stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR
station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system
was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd
travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence
when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey
charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or
more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system
doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some
intermediate validation at Wimbledon.

I trust that doesn't make sense. ;-)

On 21/07/10 01:43, Mizter T wrote:

The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram
plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's
say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram
stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR
station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system
was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd
travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence
when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey
charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or
more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system
doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some
intermediate validation at Wimbledon.

Well, similar to the kind of problem that OSI's sometimes create. But
yes, that does make sense; thanks for the detailed reply. I'm sure I
did understand that once, probably last time you explained it on this
group :-)

What I was failing to grasp (although I knew, really) is that since a
tram is like a bus, it's two journeys. I would never expect that I
could get off a bus and onto the tube without touching in, but then
buses don't stop on the paid side of the gateline, so the situation is
rather more intuitive.

-roy

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Jul 21, 12:41 am, Roy Badami wrote:

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the
automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and
this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram
stop is within a gated paid-for area.)

I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and
did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd
have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would
charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also
be subject to a PF if checked en route.

This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if
you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I
understand it from previous discussions...

Paul S

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:16:18 +0100
"Paul Scott" wrote:
I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and
did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd
have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would
charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also
be subject to a PF if checked en route.

You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid
if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if someone
decided to challenge that.

B2003

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:48:11 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid
if its touched in

If you don't have a seasion ticket that is the case. From the Conditions
of Carriage:

"If you do not touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your
journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare
and this journey will not be included in any daily price capping. You
may also be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted. "

David

You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only
valid if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if
someone decided to challenge that.


How please do arrive at that given the conditions of use when using an
Oyster card to travel on National Rail services include for PAYG:

"3.13 At the station where you start your journey, you must touch your
Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 3.4) at the
station. A charge, as set by the Train Companies and TfL, will be
deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed
to start your journey unless you have a sufficient pay as you go credit
on your Oyster card as is deemed necessary by the Train Operators and
TfL for you to pay for your journey.

At the end of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a
yellow card reader at the station as you exit. The amount deducted at
the start of your journey will, as required, be adjusted so that you
only pay the advertised Oyster single fare for the journey made.

If you do not touch in at the station where you start your journey and
touch out at the station where you end your journey, you may be charged
more than the advertised Oyster single fare, and any daily price cap to
which you may be entitled will not apply. You may also be liable to a
Penalty Fare and/or you may be prosecuted."

TFL's conditions of carriage seem to provide similarly:

"6.7.3. Paying as you go on the Underground, DLR, London Overground and
National Rail within the National Rail pay as you go area

To record the start of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card
flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at the station as you
enter the compulsory ticket area. A charge, as set by TfL, will be
deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed
to start your journey unless you have sufficient pay as you go credit on
your Oyster card.

To record the end of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat
on a yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at the station as you exit the
compulsory ticket area. The deduction made at the start of your journey
will be adjusted so that you only pay the advertised Oyster single fare
for the journey made.

If you do not touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your
journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare
and this journey will not be included in any daily price capping. You
may also be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted."

IANAL but that seems to me pretty tight. Or is there eg some wizard HRA
challenge to the whole penalty fare regime built on the 1999 GLA Act?

--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On Jul 21, 2:48*pm, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:16:18 +0100
"Paul Scott" wrote:
I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and
did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd
have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would
charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also
be subject to a PF if checked en route.

You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid
if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if someone
decided to challenge that.


That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a
validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are
liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs
say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/

Also, see the TfL website he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14436.aspx
---quote---
If you don't have a valid ticket or you don't touch in if using Oyster
pay as you go, you may have to pay a penalty fare or we may prosecute
you.
---/quote---

If there was no requirement to touch-in, then that would leave a
massive hole open - bods would travel in either the knowledge or hope
that the station at the other end didn't have gates (applies to a
great many NR stations in London), hence there'd be no barrier in the
way that would force them to touch-out (voila, a free ride), or else
in the hope that the gates at the far end would be open and hence
unsupervised.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a
validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are
liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs
say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/

I'd love to see them try that on in court. A valid ticket is a valid ticket
whether its been touched in or not whatever their conditions say. Those
conditions are not a legal document. Unless they can PROVE that they would
have lost money by the ticket not being touched in I don't see a court in
the country upholding a prosecution.

B2003