"skyguy" wrote in message
...
The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can
see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact
that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators
just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top,
and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to
ignore them unless they have to open a gate.

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either -
if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR
journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch
in. If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring
to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers
would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the
congestion...

Paul S

On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
"skyguy" wrote in message

...

The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can
see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact
that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators
just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top,
and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to
ignore them unless they have to open a gate.

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either -
if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR
journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch
in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring
to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers
would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the
congestion...

Paul S

The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are,
say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG
around London. Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to
pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper
ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket. Are there
working interchange validators at Farringdon?

On Jul 20, 3:43*pm, MIG wrote:

On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"skyguy" wrote:

The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can
see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact
that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators
just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top,
and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to
ignore them unless they have to open a gate.

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either -
if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR
journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch
in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring
to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers
would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the
congestion...

The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are,
say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG
around London.

In reality most people arriving from Brighton at London Bridge on a
London Terminals won't be wanting onward travel northbound (into or
through central London) via FCC Thameslink, they'll be transferring to
the Tube (or the bus, or walking from the station etc) - those who do
want onward travel would have sensibly either got a point-to-point
ticket to their destination station (e.g. St Pancras or West
Hampstead), or got an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton.

Those arriving in London Bridge for onward travel via suburban
services to destinations in south London could again have got a
through ticket or Travelcard from Brighton, but otherwise if they want
to use Oyster PAYG for such a journey then yes they'd need to pass out
through the gates and then back in using their Oyster card.

In the case of London Bridge I don't think it's really a major issue,
in that I don't think it'll affect that many passengers and for those
it does, it isn't that much of an obstacle.

*Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to
pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper
ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket.


Not quite sure I entirely follow the above in the context of the
discussion, but I think I'm being a bit dense.

Are there working interchange validators at Farringdon?


Good question - I'd expect the ones at Farringdon have remained
operational because of the large flow of passengers from outside of
London who'd want to start or end an Oyster PAYG journey when
transferring to the Underground - but I can't answer definitively as I
haven't noticed either way when passing through recently.

On 20 July, 16:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 20, 3:43*pm, MIG wrote:





On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"skyguy" wrote:

The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can
see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact
that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators
just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top,
and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to
ignore them unless they have to open a gate.

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either -
if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR
journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch
in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring
to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers
would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the
congestion...

The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are,
say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG
around London.

In reality most people arriving from Brighton at London Bridge on a
London Terminals won't be wanting onward travel northbound (into or
through central London) via FCC Thameslink, they'll be transferring to
the Tube (or the bus, or walking from the station etc) - those who do
want onward travel would have sensibly either got a point-to-point
ticket to their destination station (e.g. St Pancras or West
Hampstead), or got an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton.

Those arriving in London Bridge for onward travel via suburban
services to destinations in south London could again have got a
through ticket or Travelcard from Brighton, but otherwise if they want
to use Oyster PAYG for such a journey then yes they'd need to pass out
through the gates and then back in using their Oyster card.

In the case of London Bridge I don't think it's really a major issue,
in that I don't think it'll affect that many passengers and for those
it does, it isn't that much of an obstacle.

*Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to
pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper
ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket.

Not quite sure I entirely follow the above in the context of the
discussion, but I think I'm being a bit dense.

Well, basically what you said. To get off at, say, Charing Cross,
they'd be covered by their ticket to London Terminals anyway. To go
to St Pancreas or beyond directly, they'd have to have a paper ticket
to somewhere beyond London Terminals (is the extra more than adding
the PAYG?). So the issue was can they validly arrive at London
Terminals and not face a barrier or other validator before changing to
LU, and the possible place was Farringdon, if I've understood that
correctly.


Are there working interchange validators at Farringdon?

Good question - I'd expect the ones at Farringdon have remained
operational because of the large flow of passengers from outside of
London who'd want to start or end an Oyster PAYG journey when
transferring to the Underground - but I can't answer definitively as I
haven't noticed either way when passing through recently.

There are Oystered, but unbarriered, exits at Waterloo East and
Charing Cross in the meantime, which one would have thought were
bigger holes than having them on the platform at London Bridge.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:58:20 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either -
if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR
journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch
in.

Yes, but...

If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

You'll have touched in before getting on the tram... The touch out
follows where you eventually leave the system. Validating at
Wimbledon on the platform after leaving the tram would mean you pay
another tram fare wouldn't it? I'm *sure* this is what happened to me
once when I misunderstood the rules. (In fact, I think I paid three
times but that's another story...)

Richard.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:58:20 +0100, "Paul Scott"

If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching
in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch
out.

You'll have touched in before getting on the tram... The touch out
follows where you eventually leave the system. Validating at
Wimbledon on the platform after leaving the tram would mean you pay
another tram fare wouldn't it? I'm *sure* this is what happened to me
once when I misunderstood the rules. (In fact, I think I paid three
times but that's another story...)

If Wimbledon tram stop was outside the station, the main gateline wouldn't
give a toss whether you'd arrived by bus, tram or on foot would it, it would
start a new journey. We've discussed this a few times before, you do have to
touch again at Wimbledon, whether interchanging or exiting...

Paul S

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging
either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an
uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on
the tram without a touch in.

That bit I understand, I think.

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at
Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve
any touching? But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is
beyond me...

-roy

On Jul 21, 12:41*am, Roy Badami wrote:

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging
either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an
uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on
the tram without a touch in.

That bit I understand, I think.

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. *I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? *Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the
automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and
this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram
stop is within a gated paid-for area.)


AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at
Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve
any touching? *But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is
beyond me...

You've got that wrong - pax transferring from Tramlink to the Tube or
NR should touch on one of the interchange validators in order to start
their Tube/NR PAYG journey (but not, I think, the validators on the
Tram platform - these validate one for tram travel only).

Going the other way pax should also touch on one of the interchange
validators in order to end their Tube/NR PAYG journey, then touch on
one of the validators on the tram platform to pay for their tram fare.
(I'm not sure if just a single touch on the validator on the Tramlink
platform would serve to both end the Tube/NR journey and pay for the
forthcoming tram journey, but it'd be neat if it did.)

The thing is, in fares terms, the tram is basically a bus. My
understanding is that if you were to touch-in at Ampere Way tram stop,
then transfer at Wimbledon to say the District line to Fulham Broadway
without touching anywhere, then you'd have properly paid your tram
fare, but that's it - you wouldn't have begun a Tube PAYG journey so
would get hit with an unresolved journey charge on exit at Fulham
B'way, and furthermore would have been travelling without a proper
ticket from Wimbledon up to Fulham B'way (hence liable to a PF).

The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram
plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's
say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram
stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR
station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system
was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd
travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence
when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey
charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or
more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system
doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some
intermediate validation at Wimbledon.

I trust that doesn't make sense. ;-)

On 21/07/10 01:43, Mizter T wrote:

The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram
plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's
say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram
stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR
station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system
was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd
travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence
when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey
charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or
more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system
doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some
intermediate validation at Wimbledon.

Well, similar to the kind of problem that OSI's sometimes create. But
yes, that does make sense; thanks for the detailed reply. I'm sure I
did understand that once, probably last time you explained it on this
group :-)

What I was failing to grasp (although I knew, really) is that since a
tram is like a bus, it's two journeys. I would never expect that I
could get off a bus and onto the tube without touching in, but then
buses don't stop on the paid side of the gateline, so the situation is
rather more intuitive.

-roy

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Jul 21, 12:41 am, Roy Badami wrote:

On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:

If coming the other way, you'll be in the
paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey
when (if) you eventually touch out.

This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a
tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to
tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it?

I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the
automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and
this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram
stop is within a gated paid-for area.)

I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and
did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd
have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would
charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also
be subject to a PF if checked en route.

This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if
you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I
understand it from previous discussions...

Paul S