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Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
I recently had need to make a return journey on my Oyster card from
Kings Cross St Pancras tube station to the Canonbury Overground station. Interchanging at Highbury and Islington on the outward journey there was a pink Oyster validator on the Overground platform at Highbury and Islington with instructions that one must touch the validator when interchanging at that station, and a notice about penalties for travelling without a validated Oyster card. It was worded in a way that didn't seem to make touching the pink validator optional. My recollection of previous descriptions on this group was that the pink validators were route validators, and that one could optionally touch them to get cheaper journeys when one took a route using fewer zones? So, is their use really compulsory? If so, under what circumstances? Does one always need to check for route validators on every platform one interchanges at, or is Underground-to-Overground transfer a special case? I touched the pink validitor as instructed (although, not expecting it, I very nearly failed to notice the validator); what (if anything) would have happened if I *hadn't* touched the pink validator? Thanks, -roy |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 20, 12:31*am, Roy Badami wrote: I recently had need to make a return journey on my Oyster card from Kings Cross St Pancras tube station to the Canonbury Overground station. Interchanging at Highbury and Islington on the outward journey there was a pink Oyster validator on the Overground platform at Highbury and Islington with instructions that one must touch the validator when interchanging at that station, and a notice about penalties for travelling without a validated Oyster card. *It was worded in a way that didn't seem to make touching the pink validator optional. My recollection of previous descriptions on this group was that the pink validators were route validators, and that one could optionally touch them to get cheaper journeys when one took a route using fewer zones? So, is their use really compulsory? *If so, under what circumstances? Does one always need to check for route validators on every platform one interchanges at, or is Underground-to-Overground transfer a special case? In a word Roy (well, not many), no, I don't think there is (or indeed can possibly be) any compulsion to use Oyster route validators (or penalty for not using them) - touching on them mid-journey can possibly result in a cheaper (non zone 1) fare being charged, but that is conditional on the specific journey that a passenger is making. In your case, a journey from KXSP to Canonbury is always going to be a zones 1&2 journey - no possible way of avoiding zone 1 because you started there! I touched the pink validitor as instructed (although, not expecting it, I very nearly failed to notice the validator); what (if anything) would have happened if I *hadn't* touched the pink validator? Nothing, and you would have still been travelling perfectly legitimately. Oyster route validators are all about providing a way for people to prove they've avoided zone 1 and hence allow them to pay/ be charged the non-z1 fare. Commissioner Hendy's Pread-Street-torian guards won't be hunting you down for this, worry not. But that chocolate truffle you had on the Victoria line - it wasn't infused with booze, was it? |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20/07/10 00:49, Mizter T wrote:
In a word Roy (well, not many), no, I don't think there is (or indeed can possibly be) any compulsion to use Oyster route validators (or penalty for not using them) - touching on them mid-journey can possibly result in a cheaper (non zone 1) fare being charged, but that is conditional on the specific journey that a passenger is making. Thanks - my first reaction was to assume as much, but a combination of the threatening signage and a significant number of other passengers using the validator raised doubts in my mind; and as I didn't want to risk getting held up (e.g. if my Oyster didn't open the barriers at Canonbury) I didn't feel like testing what would happen if I ignored it. I didn't think to take a photo of the signage though I imagine it is fairly consistent between stations; if I'm travelling that way again I'll try to remember to do that. In your case, a journey from KXSP to Canonbury is always going to be a zones 1&2 journey - no possible way of avoiding zone 1 because you started there! Maybe I needed to prove I didn't take the Central Line to Stratford and hence go via zone 3? ;-) -roy |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
Mizter T wrote:
Oyster route validators are all about providing a way for people to prove they've avoided zone 1 and hence allow them to pay/ be charged the non-z1 fare. Very useful they are, too - had to use the pink'un at H&I on Saturday, going from Finsbury Park to Acton Central. A nice, spacious 378 beats the Piccadilly Line any day. Commissioner Hendy's Pread-Street-torian guards won't be hunting you down for this, worry not. But that chocolate truffle you had on the Victoria line - it wasn't infused with booze, was it? Oddly enough, I think truffles are legal, it's 'open containers of alcohol' that are banned. Not that it's enforced in any way, shape or form, as the sight of an extremely drunk lady staggering off a westbound Piccadilly a couple of weeks back and plonking her empty wine bottle on the Help Point attests. Tom |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
FWIW the conditions of use for Oyster
http://www.tfl.gov.uk%2Fassets%2Fdow...uL_YIr_fB1vJpg do make the distinction between what you "should" and "must" do: "3.16 Oyster route validators (pink card reader) Oyster route validators can be identified by a pink card reader: These are located at a number of interchange stations. If you pass an Oyster route validator when changing from one train to another, and you are using your Oyster card to pay as you go for any part of your journey, you should touch your card on the pink card reader to ensure you pay the cheapest appropriate Oyster single fare for the route you are taking. You must still touch in on a yellow card reader at the start of your journey and touch out at the end to ensure you pay the correct Oyster single fare." (I was sad enough to check when they were introduced at Highbury & Islington.) -- Robin PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the
pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
skyguy wrote:
The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but ... Well this *is* the same organisation which tells travellers that "dogs must be carried" before they may use an escalator :) -- Robin PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20 July, 09:28, skyguy wrote:
The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. But at Greenwich, if you didn't spot the validator halfway back down the DLR platform and headed for the exit, you'd find yourself not passing a barrier or validator. Now there is one at the main exit and also the DLR one is a bit better placed. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"MIG" wrote in message ... On 20 July, 09:28, skyguy wrote: The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. PAYG on NR has only reduced the numbers of people needing the platform validators, it hasn't allowed the facility to be removed - they are basically there for people transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6, just like those at Wimbledon. Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"skyguy" wrote in message ... The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the congestion... Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
Paul Scott wrote:
The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. PAYG on NR has only reduced the numbers of people needing the platform validators, it hasn't allowed the facility to be removed - they are basically there for people transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6, just like those at Wimbledon. What happens now if one touches on the platform pads when interchanging? Does it terminate the PAYG journey completely or does touching out further down the line make it an unnecessary interchange touch? |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20 July, 15:16, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote: Paul Scott wrote: The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. PAYG on NR has only reduced the numbers of people needing the platform validators, it hasn't allowed the facility to be removed *- they are basically there for people transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6, just like those at Wimbledon. What happens now if one touches on the platform pads when interchanging? Does it terminate the PAYG journey completely or does touching out further down the line make it an unnecessary interchange touch? Many have been switched off, like at London Bridge. But I was getting at the fact that there now always has to be something at the NR exit, whereas in the past you might have missed the platform validator (as on the DLR at Greenwich) and then not had the opportunity to pass another one. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message ... What happens now if one touches on the platform pads when interchanging? Does it terminate the PAYG journey completely or does touching out further down the line make it an unnecessary interchange touch? Apparently the system sets a sort of 'partial exit' if you are already touched in; another poster here, 'Mizter T', coined the term 'soft exit'. If you aren't already touched in it starts a new journey. Whatever it is called behind the scenes, the journey can continue. I think it gets sorted out either at a subsequent proper exit through a gateline, or after some sort of timeout, whichever comes first. Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott"
wrote: "skyguy" wrote in message ... The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the congestion... Paul S The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are, say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG around London. Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket. Are there working interchange validators at Farringdon? |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 20, 3:16*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll- wrote: Paul Scott wrote: The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. PAYG on NR has only reduced the numbers of people needing the platform validators, it hasn't allowed the facility to be removed *- they are basically there for people transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6, just like those at Wimbledon. What happens now if one touches on the platform pads when interchanging? Does it terminate the PAYG journey completely or does touching out further down the line make it an unnecessary interchange touch? Nothing's changed in the way 'interchange validators' are configured - but as MIG states they've been turned off at London Bridge (on the NR Kent through platforms), presumably pending removal at some point - I suspect this is because they kinda leave a bit of a hole in the system. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20 July, 15:44, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 20, 3:16*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll- wrote: Paul Scott wrote: The situation has been improved by the acceptance of PAYG on NR. Previously, at Stratford you could ignore the pads at the end of the DLR and on the Central platforms and touch out at the barrier. PAYG on NR has only reduced the numbers of people needing the platform validators, it hasn't allowed the facility to be removed *- they are basically there for people transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6, just like those at Wimbledon. What happens now if one touches on the platform pads when interchanging? Does it terminate the PAYG journey completely or does touching out further down the line make it an unnecessary interchange touch? Nothing's changed in the way 'interchange validators' are configured - but as MIG states they've been turned off at London Bridge (on the NR Kent through platforms), presumably pending removal at some point - I suspect this is because they kinda leave a bit of a hole in the system. There are so many other holes though ... Do you mean they would have allowed people to arrive from Brighton without a ticket and then use PAYG from London Bridge to Charing Cross (say)? Wasn't that always possible before, as long as one proceeded to Farringdon or some such? |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 20, 3:43*pm, MIG wrote: On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott" wrote: "skyguy" wrote: The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the congestion... The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are, say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG around London. In reality most people arriving from Brighton at London Bridge on a London Terminals won't be wanting onward travel northbound (into or through central London) via FCC Thameslink, they'll be transferring to the Tube (or the bus, or walking from the station etc) - those who do want onward travel would have sensibly either got a point-to-point ticket to their destination station (e.g. St Pancras or West Hampstead), or got an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton. Those arriving in London Bridge for onward travel via suburban services to destinations in south London could again have got a through ticket or Travelcard from Brighton, but otherwise if they want to use Oyster PAYG for such a journey then yes they'd need to pass out through the gates and then back in using their Oyster card. In the case of London Bridge I don't think it's really a major issue, in that I don't think it'll affect that many passengers and for those it does, it isn't that much of an obstacle. *Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket. Not quite sure I entirely follow the above in the context of the discussion, but I think I'm being a bit dense. Are there working interchange validators at Farringdon? Good question - I'd expect the ones at Farringdon have remained operational because of the large flow of passengers from outside of London who'd want to start or end an Oyster PAYG journey when transferring to the Underground - but I can't answer definitively as I haven't noticed either way when passing through recently. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20 July, 16:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 20, 3:43*pm, MIG wrote: On 20 July, 14:58, "Paul Scott" wrote: "skyguy" wrote: The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but as far as I can see almost no one ever does. The confusion isn't helped by the fact that there's yellow validators on the tube platforms, pink validators just beyond the platforms, yellow ones on the ticket gates at the top, and special tram ones on that platform - I think people have learnt to ignore them unless they have to open a gate. It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. *If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. The yellow platform validators are needed for PAYG passengers transferring to/from NR services that extend beyond zone 6. Otherwise said passengers would have to leave and re-enter the main gateline, adding to the congestion... The London Bridge situation doesn't particularly help people who are, say, arriving from Brighton on a paper ticket and wanting to use PAYG around London. In reality most people arriving from Brighton at London Bridge on a London Terminals won't be wanting onward travel northbound (into or through central London) via FCC Thameslink, they'll be transferring to the Tube (or the bus, or walking from the station etc) - those who do want onward travel would have sensibly either got a point-to-point ticket to their destination station (e.g. St Pancras or West Hampstead), or got an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton. Those arriving in London Bridge for onward travel via suburban services to destinations in south London could again have got a through ticket or Travelcard from Brighton, but otherwise if they want to use Oyster PAYG for such a journey then yes they'd need to pass out through the gates and then back in using their Oyster card. In the case of London Bridge I don't think it's really a major issue, in that I don't think it'll affect that many passengers and for those it does, it isn't that much of an obstacle. *Maybe they've worked out that you'll always have to pass through a London Terminals barrier at some point where your paper ticket would be valid, or else have a cross-London ticket. Not quite sure I entirely follow the above in the context of the discussion, but I think I'm being a bit dense. Well, basically what you said. To get off at, say, Charing Cross, they'd be covered by their ticket to London Terminals anyway. To go to St Pancreas or beyond directly, they'd have to have a paper ticket to somewhere beyond London Terminals (is the extra more than adding the PAYG?). So the issue was can they validly arrive at London Terminals and not face a barrier or other validator before changing to LU, and the possible place was Farringdon, if I've understood that correctly. Are there working interchange validators at Farringdon? Good question - I'd expect the ones at Farringdon have remained operational because of the large flow of passengers from outside of London who'd want to start or end an Oyster PAYG journey when transferring to the Underground - but I can't answer definitively as I haven't noticed either way when passing through recently. There are Oystered, but unbarriered, exits at Waterloo East and Charing Cross in the meantime, which one would have thought were bigger holes than having them on the platform at London Bridge. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:58:20 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote: It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. Yes, but... If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. You'll have touched in before getting on the tram... The touch out follows where you eventually leave the system. Validating at Wimbledon on the platform after leaving the tram would mean you pay another tram fare wouldn't it? I'm *sure* this is what happened to me once when I misunderstood the rules. (In fact, I think I paid three times but that's another story...) Richard. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"Richard" wrote in message ... On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:58:20 +0100, "Paul Scott" If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. You'll have touched in before getting on the tram... The touch out follows where you eventually leave the system. Validating at Wimbledon on the platform after leaving the tram would mean you pay another tram fare wouldn't it? I'm *sure* this is what happened to me once when I misunderstood the rules. (In fact, I think I paid three times but that's another story...) If Wimbledon tram stop was outside the station, the main gateline wouldn't give a toss whether you'd arrived by bus, tram or on foot would it, it would start a new journey. We've discussed this a few times before, you do have to touch again at Wimbledon, whether interchanging or exiting... Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20/07/2010 10:24, Robin wrote:
skyguy wrote: The sign at Wimbledon also seems to suggest that you must touch the pink validator if changing between tube and train, but ... Well this *is* the same organisation which tells travellers that "dogs must be carried" before they may use an escalator :) Well, they must! |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote:
It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. That bit I understand, I think. If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it? AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve any touching? But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is beyond me... -roy |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 12:41*am, Roy Badami wrote: On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote: It isn't a good idea to ignore the tram validator if interchanging either - if heading onto the tram with PAYG you'll end up with an uncompleted tube/NR journey depending on origin, and could be caught on the tram without a touch in. That bit I understand, I think. If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. This bit I'm confused by. *I didn't think you ever should touch out on a tram - I thought they're treated like buses? *Interchanging from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it? I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram stop is within a gated paid-for area.) AIUI (based on previous discussions) transferring from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't involve going though any gatelines and doesn't involve any touching? *But I'm not a Tramlink user myself - this whole thing is beyond me... You've got that wrong - pax transferring from Tramlink to the Tube or NR should touch on one of the interchange validators in order to start their Tube/NR PAYG journey (but not, I think, the validators on the Tram platform - these validate one for tram travel only). Going the other way pax should also touch on one of the interchange validators in order to end their Tube/NR PAYG journey, then touch on one of the validators on the tram platform to pay for their tram fare. (I'm not sure if just a single touch on the validator on the Tramlink platform would serve to both end the Tube/NR journey and pay for the forthcoming tram journey, but it'd be neat if it did.) The thing is, in fares terms, the tram is basically a bus. My understanding is that if you were to touch-in at Ampere Way tram stop, then transfer at Wimbledon to say the District line to Fulham Broadway without touching anywhere, then you'd have properly paid your tram fare, but that's it - you wouldn't have begun a Tube PAYG journey so would get hit with an unresolved journey charge on exit at Fulham B'way, and furthermore would have been travelling without a proper ticket from Wimbledon up to Fulham B'way (hence liable to a PF). The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some intermediate validation at Wimbledon. I trust that doesn't make sense. ;-) |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 21/07/10 01:43, Mizter T wrote:
The basic thing is the system doesn't string it all together as a Tram plus Tube/NR journey. This does I think actually make sense - let's say you travel by tram from Ampere Way, get off at Merton Road tram stop, meet a friend then walk down the road to Wimbledon Chase NR station and touch-in (no gates here, just validators) - if the system was designed to be too clever for its own boots it could assume you'd travelled via Wimbledon and this was the end of your journey, hence when you got to (say) Sutton you'd get hit with the unresolved journey charge plus you'd have been ticketless and thus liable to a PF (or more) on your Wimbledon Chase to Sutton journey. Hence, the system doesn't try and make presumptions to do this, thus the need for some intermediate validation at Wimbledon. Well, similar to the kind of problem that OSI's sometimes create. But yes, that does make sense; thanks for the detailed reply. I'm sure I did understand that once, probably last time you explained it on this group :-) What I was failing to grasp (although I knew, really) is that since a tram is like a bus, it's two journeys. I would never expect that I could get off a bus and onto the tube without touching in, but then buses don't stop on the paid side of the gateline, so the situation is rather more intuitive. -roy |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Jul 21, 12:41 am, Roy Badami wrote: On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote: If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. This bit I'm confused by. I didn't think you ever should touch out on a tram - I thought they're treated like buses? Interchanging from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it? I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram stop is within a gated paid-for area.) I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also be subject to a PF if checked en route. This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I understand it from previous discussions... Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:16:18 +0100
"Paul Scott" wrote: I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also be subject to a PF if checked en route. You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if someone decided to challenge that. B2003 |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
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Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has
enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if someone decided to challenge that. How please do arrive at that given the conditions of use when using an Oyster card to travel on National Rail services include for PAYG: "3.13 At the station where you start your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 3.4) at the station. A charge, as set by the Train Companies and TfL, will be deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed to start your journey unless you have a sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card as is deemed necessary by the Train Operators and TfL for you to pay for your journey. At the end of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader at the station as you exit. The amount deducted at the start of your journey will, as required, be adjusted so that you only pay the advertised Oyster single fare for the journey made. If you do not touch in at the station where you start your journey and touch out at the station where you end your journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare, and any daily price cap to which you may be entitled will not apply. You may also be liable to a Penalty Fare and/or you may be prosecuted." TFL's conditions of carriage seem to provide similarly: "6.7.3. Paying as you go on the Underground, DLR, London Overground and National Rail within the National Rail pay as you go area To record the start of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at the station as you enter the compulsory ticket area. A charge, as set by TfL, will be deducted from the balance on your Oyster card. You will not be allowed to start your journey unless you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card. To record the end of your journey, you must touch your Oyster card flat on a yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at the station as you exit the compulsory ticket area. The deduction made at the start of your journey will be adjusted so that you only pay the advertised Oyster single fare for the journey made. If you do not touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare and this journey will not be included in any daily price capping. You may also be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted." IANAL but that seems to me pretty tight. Or is there eg some wizard HRA challenge to the whole penalty fare regime built on the 1999 GLA Act? -- Robin PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 2:48*pm, wrote: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:16:18 +0100 "Paul Scott" wrote: I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also be subject to a PF if checked en route. You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid if its touched in which would make an interesting legal case if someone decided to challenge that. That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/ Also, see the TfL website he http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14436.aspx ---quote--- If you don't have a valid ticket or you don't touch in if using Oyster pay as you go, you may have to pay a penalty fare or we may prosecute you. ---/quote--- If there was no requirement to touch-in, then that would leave a massive hole open - bods would travel in either the knowledge or hope that the station at the other end didn't have gates (applies to a great many NR stations in London), hence there'd be no barrier in the way that would force them to touch-out (voila, a free ride), or else in the hope that the gates at the far end would be open and hence unsupervised. |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote: That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/ I'd love to see them try that on in court. A valid ticket is a valid ticket whether its been touched in or not whatever their conditions say. Those conditions are not a legal document. Unless they can PROVE that they would have lost money by the ticket not being touched in I don't see a court in the country upholding a prosecution. B2003 |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 12:16*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: On Jul 21, 12:41 am, Roy Badami wrote: On 20/07/10 14:58, Paul Scott wrote: If coming the other way, you'll be in the paid area without touching in, so will register an unstarted journey when (if) you eventually touch out. This bit I'm confused by. *I didn't think you ever should touch out on a tram - I thought they're treated like buses? *Interchanging from tram to tube at Wimbledon doesn't change that rule, does it? I think all Paul is referring to is touching out on the pad on the automatic gate - you need to do this to get out of the station (and this is why Wimbledon is a 'special case' for Tramlink, i.e. the tram stop is within a gated paid-for area.) I was trying to get across the general case that if you got off the tram and did nothing at Wimbledon, when you touched out at 'some other station' you'd have been travelling without a tube/rail touch in, and the gates would charge a max cash fare on the grounds the journey was unstarted. You'd also be subject to a PF if checked en route. Yes, that's all correct. This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I understand it from previous discussions... No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station) there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so). However if you're *entering* Wimbledon station then after passing through the gates you *are* requirement to touch on the Oyster reader on the tram platform - failure to do so will result in the system assuming one was to make a Tube/NR journey, and hence charging the max fare because one didn't touch-out at a Tube/NR station having completed a Tube/NR journey. (Incidentally, if a tram passenger did alight at Wimbledon then touch on one of the Oyster readers on the tram platform, then it's quite possible there'd be no ill-effect - Tramlink allows one 'free transfer' using Oyster from tram to tram, as any Tramlink destination can be reached by using just two trams - this is implemented by allowing a second 'free' touch-in at a tram stop within IIRC 70 minutes of the first touch-in. Therefore by my reading of things if a passenger arriving at Wimbledon mistakenly touches on one of the tram platform validators they wouldn't be charged for another tram journey unless they've already used up their 'free transfer' - the same applies for anyone getting off a tram anywhere else on the system and erroneously thinking they need to touch-out.) |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 3:54*pm, wrote: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Mizter T wrote: That's simply nonsense and completely wrong - if you don't have a validated Oyster card then you are travelling without a ticket and are liable to a PF or prosecution. This is what all the posters and signs say, for example these ones on the interior of doors on Tube trains: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mixthem...te/4019285039/ I'd love to see them try that on in court. A valid ticket is a valid ticket whether its been touched in or not whatever their conditions say. Those conditions are not a legal document. Unless *they can PROVE that they would have lost money by the ticket not being touched in I don't see a court in the country upholding a prosecution. You really think that? All the TfL blurb - including all the small print (i.e. the conditions of carriage - which *is* a legal document) - makes clear that an Oyster card is only a valid ticket if it's been validated (at least when being used for PAYG) - an un-validated Oyster card is therefore not a valid ticket. I'm pretty sure there'll have been successful prosecutions to this effect already. But feel free to attempt to put yourself in this position so you can try your flawed argument out...! |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
In message , d
writes I'd love to see them try that on in court. They already have: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...-cost-10000.do The case goes to appeal next month. -- Paul Terry |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
"Mizter T" wrote in message ... On Jul 21, 12:16 pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I understand it from previous discussions... No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station) there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so). Thanks for the correction - I'm sure that's been the previous explanation, but we live and learn... Paul S |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On 21 July, 15:29, David Walters wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:48:11 +0000 (UTC), wrote: You can't get a penalty fare if you have a valid oyster card that has enough money to pay a max fare on it. Unless an oyster is now only valid if its touched in If you don't have a seasion ticket that is the case. From the Conditions of Carriage: "If you do not touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your journey, you may be charged more than the advertised Oyster single fare and this journey will not be included in any daily price capping. You may also be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted. *" David Where does a "journey" start? Less of an issue now with PAYG on NR, but in the past it came up with people travelling on Oyster seasons from, say, Slade green and changing to the DLR at Greenwich, with an zone 1 - 6 season on Oyster, and all that silliness about having to touch in on the DLR even with a season, "at the start of your journey". |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 4:49*pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: "Mizter T" wrote: On Jul 21, 12:16 pm, "Paul Scott" wrote: This would also be true for a touch out on the barrier line at Wimbledon if you hadn't used the special validator when getting off the tram, as I understand it from previous discussions... No, that's not correct. So long as one has correctly touched-in at a tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station) there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform after alighting from the tram. The Oyster readers on the gates at Wimbledon will correctly identify that you're an exiting tram passenger who's paid their fare and will let you through (and if the gates are locked open then you wouldn't even need to touch-out on the gate's Oyster reader, though of course you can still do so). Thanks for the correction - I'm sure that's been the previous explanation, but we live and learn... No probs, and if that was my previous explanation, then apologies for it being unclear or misleading! I'm pretty much 100% certain this is how it's been since the coming of Oyster. Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of what the situation is like there now (post PAYG on NR), haven't been there for a while, but I did stop by at Elmers End a couple of months or so ago (was actually driving past) to have a look at what information and advice was displayed for Oyster users - and I was disappointed to find that there was nothing at all. (Elmers End isn't gated, by the way.) |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
In message
, Mizter T writes Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of what the situation is like there now Last time I was there, the need to touch out at the ticket gates was clearly signed, but a further degree of confusion was added by a notice not to use the yellow reader adjacent to the manual gate when leaving the station! -- Paul Terry |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Jul 21, 5:48 pm, Paul Terry wrote: In message , Mizter T writes Incidentally I recall being rather unimpressed at the information provided at Wimbledon when Oyster first arrived, though eventually posters were displayed which were sort-of helpful. I'm not sure of what the situation is like there now Last time I was there, the need to touch out at the ticket gates was clearly signed, but a further degree of confusion was added by a notice not to use the yellow reader adjacent to the manual gate when leaving the station! OK, well I can say things have changed since you were there - sometime last year I think the manual side gates were replaced with the "WAGs", that is the wide-aisle gates (as opposed to ticket checks being done by Coleen Rooney, Abigail Clancy et al [1]). I assume that the standalone reader next to the manual gate caused some sort of issue here because it was directionally ambiguous - i.e. it couldn't tell whether a passenger was entering or leaving the system. Touching an Oyster on a gate meanwhile isn't ambiguous at all - it's a definitive indicator of either an entry or an exit. So that's one issue less to contend with at least! ----- [1] I did need to google for this, BTW! |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
I should never have mentioned the Wimbledon tram issue! The point was
really about the pink validators... |
Oyster Route Validators - compulsory to touch?
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:11:45 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote: [...] So long as one has correctly touched-in at a tram stop before travelling to Wimbledon, then if the journey is finishing at Wimbledon (and the passenger is thus exiting the station) there's no requirement to touch on anything again on the tram platform after alighting from the tram. [...] I wouldn't touch again on the platform, as I said I paid again once that way: fair enough, you could argue that the free transfer wouldn't apply at terminals. Thanks for the explanations, everyone, and sorry to go on about it. Wimbledon is clearly an extra large can of worms. The signage there is *completely* insufficient if all we read above is true (no reason to think not) and there should be announcements on the tram as well - there are about every other bloody thing. I am a great supporter of Oyster (except Network Railcard) but at this one station, and maybe a few others, could things not be improved? My earlier post now seems off-topic as we were supposed to be talking about route validators. I didn't know there was one there, clearly my mistake. But then, the current "Getting Around with Oyster" (May 2010) doesn't refer to what to do at Wimbedon when leaving the network somewhere else: "I get the tram to/from Wimbledon station. What should I do? If you travel by tram to Wimbledon, always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the station gates when leaving the station. Do not use the yellow card reader on the manual gate when you exit. When travelling by tram from Wimbledon, always touch in at the station gates and again at the yellow card reader on the tram platform before boarding." The route validators in the Wimbledon tram case are not always fulfiling their usual purpose of indicating a [cheaper] route taken. They are, as I think Mizter T pointed out weeks ago, also able to record an "in" and thus avoid a penalty. I can now see that I have over-paid on a recent journey via Wimbledon where I didn't validate there. [Previous balance £20.10] 22:21 Carshalton [National Rail] Entry - £4.30 £15.80 22:32 Mitcham Junction Tramstop Entry £0.00 £15.80 ^^ Why not a tram fare? Earlier cap? 23:06 Surbiton [National Rail] Exit - £4.30 £11.50 Total: £8.60. Total for the day £13.70 instead of a £5.10 Zone 2-6 cap. Interesting that on the unlisted outward journey, the Wimbledon tram validator recorded an exit rather than a bus-like entry. Anyway, setting this all out like this has helped me understand exactly what happened, so I might as well click "send" and share the pain. Thanks, Richard. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...r_may_2010.pdf |
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