In message , d
writes

I think you'll find that phoning the emergency services trumps any company
rules.

Indeed, it is laid down in Section 5.7 of The Fire Precautions
(Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989, that any person
employed on the station who suspects an outbreak of fire must notify the
fire brigade.

--
Paul Terry

In article , Paul Terry
writes
In message , d
writes

I think you'll find that phoning the emergency services trumps any company
rules.

Indeed, it is laid down in Section 5.7 of The Fire Precautions
(Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989, that any person
employed on the station who suspects an outbreak of fire must notify the
fire brigade.

In these Regulations, does "sub-surface" have the narrow meaning used
in this group (i.e. cut-and-cover only) or does it include the deep
tube lines?
--
Bill Borland

In article ,
Paul Terry wrote:
In message , d
writes

I think you'll find that phoning the emergency services trumps any company
rules.

Indeed, it is laid down in Section 5.7 of The Fire Precautions
(Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989, that any person
employed on the station who suspects an outbreak of fire must notify the
fire brigade.

Thanks, I stand corrected.

-roy

Paul Terry wrote on 13 October 2010 19:46:54 ...
In , d
writes

I think you'll find that phoning the emergency services trumps any company
rules.

Indeed, it is laid down in Section 5.7 of The Fire Precautions
(Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989, that any person
employed on the station who suspects an outbreak of fire must notify the
fire brigade.

No, the 1989 Regulations don't actually say that. The Fire Precautions
(Sub-surface Railway Stations) (England) Regulations 2009, which
replaced the 1989 regulations but are similarly worded in this respect,
say in regulation 5(3): "When any member of staff reasonably suspects
that there is an outbreak of fire in the premises, immediate steps must
be taken to activate the warning system referred to in regulation 6(3)
and call for the assistance of the fire and rescue authority."

There is no legal requirement for the person discovering the fire
personally to dial 999. The requirement is that *someone* must
immediately activate the local warning system (sound the fire alarm for
the station), and that someone must *call for* the assistance of the
fire brigade. That could be done by a very short message to a Network
Control Centre who would relay that to whichever emergency services were
needed. Don't forget that on LU the emergency services will include
their own ERU. The person on the spot needs to make a very quick call
and then get back to handling the situation around the fire.

I don't see anything in the regulations that prevents LU having a
procedure that channels all such requests through a centre that can
provide the necessary coordination where (a) there are multiple
incidents, and/or (b) the locations are initially uncertain, e.g.
between stations.

Re Bill's query: "sub-surface" in the regulations means basically any
station platform which is enclosed and underground.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , Bill Borland
writes

In these Regulations, does "sub-surface" have the narrow meaning used
in this group (i.e. cut-and-cover only) or does it include the deep
tube lines?

It covers both and applies to stations such as Birmingham New Street as
well as many TfL stations:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ade?view=plain

--
Paul Terry

In message , Richard J.
writes

There is no legal requirement for the person discovering the fire
personally to dial 999. The requirement is that *someone* must
immediately activate the local warning system (sound the fire alarm for
the station), and that someone must *call for* the assistance of the
fire brigade.

Well, in both cases the "someone" is the person who suspects that there
is a fire, according to the regulations. There's nothing about reporting
the fire to the station manager or other person authorised to call the
fire brigade.

I agree that there could be some ambiguity, but they do say that any
member of staff who suspects a fire must call for the assistance of the
fire brigade (under penalty of being guilty of an offence under section
12 of the Fire Precautions Act 1971).

Would telling someone else to call the fire brigade be enough to fulfil
that obligation? Probably only the courts could decide, but it's worth
bearing in mind that the regulations were introduced because of delays
and confusion in calling the fire brigade to tube-station fires over the
years.
--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Richard J.
writes

There is no legal requirement for the person discovering the fire
personally to dial 999. The requirement is that *someone* must
immediately activate the local warning system (sound the fire alarm for
the station), and that someone must *call for* the assistance of the fire
brigade.

Well, in both cases the "someone" is the person who suspects that there is
a fire, according to the regulations. There's nothing about reporting the
fire to the station manager or other person authorised to call the fire
brigade.

I agree that there could be some ambiguity, but they do say that any
member of staff who suspects a fire must call for the assistance of the
fire brigade (under penalty of being guilty of an offence under section 12
of the Fire Precautions Act 1971).

Would telling someone else to call the fire brigade be enough to fulfil
that obligation? Probably only the courts could decide, but it's worth
bearing in mind that the regulations were introduced because of delays and
confusion in calling the fire brigade to tube-station fires over the
years.
--
Paul Terry

Isn't this the familiar problem of either making regulations so tight that
they don't work in every situation, or leaving them open and expecting
people to use their initiative, only to find they don't have any?

MaxB

Batman55 wrote on 14 October 2010 08:31:22 ...
"Paul wrote in message
...
In , Richard J.
writes

There is no legal requirement for the person discovering the fire
personally to dial 999. The requirement is that *someone* must
immediately activate the local warning system (sound the fire alarm for
the station), and that someone must *call for* the assistance of the fire
brigade.

Well, in both cases the "someone" is the person who suspects that there is
a fire, according to the regulations. There's nothing about reporting the
fire to the station manager or other person authorised to call the fire
brigade.

I agree that there could be some ambiguity, but they do say that any
member of staff who suspects a fire must call for the assistance of the
fire brigade (under penalty of being guilty of an offence under section 12
of the Fire Precautions Act 1971).

Would telling someone else to call the fire brigade be enough to fulfil
that obligation? Probably only the courts could decide, but it's worth
bearing in mind that the regulations were introduced because of delays and
confusion in calling the fire brigade to tube-station fires over the
years.
--
Paul Terry

Isn't this the familiar problem of either making regulations so tight that
they don't work in every situation, or leaving them open and expecting
people to use their initiative, only to find they don't have any?

Problem? The problem here seems to be that some people can't read plain
English. I say again, there is nothing in the regs which forces the
person discovering the fire personally to call the fire brigade.
Indeed, that person might not be in a position to do so, but he might
have a radio that can link him to someone who can. The phrase is
"immediate steps must be taken"; it doesn't say by whom.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On 14 Oct, 09:24, "Richard J." wrote:
Batman55 wrote on 14 October 2010 08:31:22 ...





"Paul *wrote in message
...
In , Richard J.
*writes

There is no legal requirement for the person discovering the fire
personally to dial 999. *The requirement is that *someone* must
immediately activate the local warning system (sound the fire alarm for
the station), and that someone must *call for* the assistance of the fire
brigade.

Well, in both cases the "someone" is the person who suspects that there is
a fire, according to the regulations. There's nothing about reporting the
fire to the station manager or other person authorised to call the fire
brigade.

I agree that there could be some ambiguity, but they do say that any
member of staff who suspects a fire must call for the assistance of the
fire brigade (under penalty of being guilty of an offence under section 12
of the Fire Precautions Act 1971).

Would telling someone else to call the fire brigade be enough to fulfil
that obligation? Probably only the courts could decide, but it's worth
bearing in mind that the regulations were introduced because of delays and
confusion in calling the fire brigade to tube-station fires over the
years.
--
Paul Terry

Isn't this the familiar problem of either making regulations so tight that
they don't work in every situation, or leaving them open and expecting
people to use their initiative, only to find they don't have any?

Problem? The problem here seems to be that some people can't read plain
English. I say again, there is nothing in the regs which forces the
person discovering the fire personally to call the fire brigade.
Indeed, that person might not be in a position to do so, but he might
have a radio that can link him to someone who can. The phrase is
"immediate steps must be taken"; it doesn't say by whom.

Exactly; like, ooh, I dunno ... being in a tunnel or something.