On Oct 13, 9:36*am, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:14:28 GMT

(Roy Badami) wrote:
Again, we're not talking about members of the public. *boltar seems to
be suggesting that it would be better if LUL staff ignored their
instructions and instead dialed 999. *I don't think that's the right
way to fix things.

I'll just have to be in the minority on this issue then. For me , if I saw
a load of people injured I'd call 999 first whatever the company procedures,
not my boss. But perhaps I'm just unusual.

I work in a very large building. During our first aid training, we
were told that in a emergency, someone should contact security, who
would alert the emergency services. Our trainer cited an example where
an employee had a heart attack, a colleague called 999, and when the
ambulance turned up at the main gate, the security people didn't even
know it had been called, much less where the paramedics needed to go.
Because medical help didn't reach them in time, the heart attack
victim died.

Whether the LU control rooms functioned as they should have done on
7/7 is probably a matter for the inquest, but I can certainly see the
reason why the call goes to them and not from an individual employee.

In message
, at
11:57:26 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, martin
remarked:
I work in a very large building. During our first aid training, we
were told that in a emergency, someone should contact security, who
would alert the emergency services. Our trainer cited an example where
an employee had a heart attack, a colleague called 999, and when the
ambulance turned up at the main gate, the security people didn't even
know it had been called, much less where the paramedics needed to go.
Because medical help didn't reach them in time, the heart attack
victim died.

That's one of the problems with big buildings (and big sites).

Obviously you should *also* call the gatehouse or reception.

There's another legacy from the 60's and 70's which is that many large
sites would have private internal phone systems and break the calls out
in a large metropolis which minimised their phone bill. Like London.
That makes it difficult to know where someone is calling from, unless
they are grilled about it.

If we believe the thread here a month ago about railway lands and
postcodes, they won't dispatch to anywhere unless they have a reasonably
good idea of "where".

Whether the LU control rooms functioned as they should have done on
7/7 is probably a matter for the inquest, but I can certainly see the
reason why the call goes to them and not from an individual employee.

Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.
--
Roland Perry

On 13 Oct, 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
11:57:26 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, martin
remarked:

I work in a very large building. During our first aid training, we
were told that in a emergency, someone should contact security, who
would alert the emergency services. Our trainer cited an example where
an employee had a heart attack, a colleague called 999, and when the
ambulance turned up at the main gate, the security people didn't even
know it had been called, much less where the paramedics needed to go.
Because medical help didn't reach them in time, the heart attack
victim died.

That's one of the problems with big buildings (and big sites).

Obviously you should *also* call the gatehouse or reception.

There's another legacy from the 60's and 70's which is that many large
sites would have private internal phone systems and break the calls out
in a large metropolis which minimised their phone bill. Like London.
That makes it difficult to know where someone is calling from, unless
they are grilled about it.

If we believe the thread here a month ago about railway lands and
postcodes, they won't dispatch to anywhere unless they have a reasonably
good idea of "where".

Whether the LU control rooms functioned as they should have done on
7/7 is probably a matter for the inquest, but I can certainly see the
reason why the call goes to them and not from an individual employee.

Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.
--
Roland Perry

On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

In message
, at
14:11:00 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, MIG
remarked:
Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.

On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

If Brazilian electricians[1] can vault over gates, so can the emergency
services.

(And Euston is perhaps a bad example as the Fire Station is literally
next door; meanwhile the District Line tracks at Edgware Road are a lot
more visible from the road, and I'd be surprised if the Fire Brigade
weren't shown round from time to time to check the place out.)

[1] Maybe we need a rider to Godwin's Law?
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
14:11:00 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, MIG remarked:
Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.

On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

If Brazilian electricians[1] can vault over gates, so can the emergency
services.

Hmm. Are you suggesting that to ensure their alacrity in serious
emergencies, rescue teams should be pursued by teams of confused,
panicking armed policemen? Could work.

tom

--
Is there any other type of youth worth having??? -- Ophelia, ufdm,
on misspent youth

On 13 Oct, 22:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
14:11:00 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, MIG
remarked:

Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.

On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. *Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

If Brazilian electricians[1] can vault over gates, so can the emergency
services.

I did say road access. It's possible to drive on to the platforms at
Euston, and there will be routes to get vehicles into the best
position at most major stations.



(And Euston is perhaps a bad example as the Fire Station is literally
next door; meanwhile the District Line tracks at Edgware Road are a lot
more visible from the road, and I'd be surprised if the Fire Brigade
weren't shown round from time to time to check the place out.)

[1] Maybe we need a rider to Godwin's Law?
--
Roland Perry

On Oct 13, 10:21*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
14:11:00 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, MIG
remarked:

Passengers can generally find the platforms at a railway station, it's
not clear why emergency services staff can't. Especially if there are
hundreds of wounded people milling around.

On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. *Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

If Brazilian electricians[1] can vault over gates, so can the emergency
services.

(And Euston is perhaps a bad example as the Fire Station is literally
next door; meanwhile the District Line tracks at Edgware Road are a lot
more visible from the road, and I'd be surprised if the Fire Brigade
weren't shown round from time to time to check the place out.)

[1] Maybe we need a rider to Godwin's Law?

Just for the sake of the record, Mr de Menezes didn't ever vault over
the gate - he used an Oyster card like a normal passenger, because
that's exactly what he was. The idea that he vaulted over the gate may
have come about from an eye witness who saw one of the police who were
in pursuit - though of course subsequently it the impression it
created was allowed to stand, for a while at least.

Re the issue of opening the gates - for each gateline array there is
at least one emergency plunger (part of the control box) that will
open all the gates - also I think they are possibly interlocked with
the fire/ emegency/ evacuation alarm at the station, so if that's
triggered (and AIUI it's a level or two up from the Mr Sands PA
announcement) the gates should open. Lastly the gates aren't
completely tough - they can I think be 'negotiated' with a fairly
solid charging barge. (And I wouldn't be surprised to find that they
either open or go limp if all power is lost to them.)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
martin wrote:
would alert the emergency services. Our trainer cited an example where
an employee had a heart attack, a colleague called 999, and when the
ambulance turned up at the main gate, the security people didn't even
know it had been called, much less where the paramedics needed to go.
Because medical help didn't reach them in time, the heart attack
victim died.

Well in an earlier post I did say phone control/boss afterwards. But IMO
the emergency services should always be called first since minutes matter.

B2003

In message
, at
15:21:24 on Wed, 13 Oct 2010, MIG
remarked:
On foot I could find the platform at, say, Euston. *Not so sure I
would automatically know the road access route to the platforms or be
able to get the gates open.

If Brazilian electricians[1] can vault over gates, so can the emergency
services.

I did say road access. It's possible to drive on to the platforms at
Euston, and there will be routes to get vehicles into the best
position at most major stations.

You do that later - the first priority is to get people to the scene on
foot.
--
Roland Perry