Oyster ticketing developments
 

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 21:05:48 on Sun, 27 Feb
2011, tim.... remarked:

Yes, because they typically won't have a paywave card. They can't use
their parent's paywave card because the parent is using that. (I don't
accept your argument that a parent will get

I didn't say get, I assumed that they will have.

Do you not?

I've a credit card and a debit card in my wallet and I don't suppose that
I
am in the minority

At the moment I've only got one paywave card (and that's combined with
Oyster which has, erm, potentially unresolved issues on how the gate will
resolve which half I'm trying to use...)

Curious as to what the expiry date is?


I'm not in the business of handing my children out spare credit cards in
this situation. It's a weakness of the business model.

I don't think the fact that children wouldn't be able to make use of the
'pay and wave' fare payment facility inherently invalidates the whole
exercise - though Colin Roseienthal seems to think so, so maybe your of that
opinion too?


What I *would* be prepared to do (as a tourist arriving in London) is buy
a set of Oyster cards from a vending machine. If there isn't a Child
Oyster, then that's another business model weakness.

All 'child' Oyster cards - 5-10, 11-15 and 16+ (for 16-18 year olds)
flavours - are issued to specific individuals, and come with their photo
printed on to the card along with their name and an expiry date (TfL refer
to them as "Oyster photocards" - it's worth noting they are integral, i.e.
it's all on the one card, there's no separate photocard).

For UK residents whose age can be verified online (with a passport or
driving licence number), then the card can be sent to their UK address. For
those coming from abroad, or UK residents whose age cannot be verified
online, then the card can be collected from one of TfL's Travel Information
Centres (Heathrow, KX, Euston, Victoria, Liverpool St) on production of
proof of identity (with proof of age).

Applying for one of these card costs GBP10 (some applications used to be
free, I can't remember which ones right now).

You might consider that a business model weakness, but just dispensing
non-individualised child Oyster cards to all and sundry would also be a
business model weakness.

TfL do flag up the existence of the child off-peak Day Travelcard (now GBP
3.00), and suggest that for a few days usage this might be a better option.


Actually, that begs the question of whether a child with a paywave would
be charged less than an adult [how would the gate know?] (back to the
"twice the price" issue again).

This 'pay and wave' facility simply isn't going to encompass child fares
whatsoever.

Oyster ticketing developments
 

wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:

That's not what I was getting at. Children aged 5-10 travel free on
the Tube, DLR and LO "if travelling with an adult who has a valid
ticket, Freedom Pass or Veterans photocard or who is using pay as you
go" - that covers up to four children per adult - see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14554.aspx
(Children under 5 travel for free too, but they're dealt with
separately as they have to be accompanied by an adult.)

I don't see any reason to imagine why this free travel for accompanied
children up to the age of 10 (inclusive) would be any different if the
adult was travelling using a 'pay and wave' credit/debit card instead
of an Oyster card.

What about 11-15 year olds? How many of them have cards?

Do you mean debit/credit cards? Well, more have them than they once would
have, but as discussed elsewhere this 'pay and wave' fare payment facility
just isn't going to encompass child fares as well, it wouldn't be workable.
11-15 year olds therefore are going to need a ticket of some sort, just as
they do at present.

A question for you Colin - do you think the fact that this upcoming 'pay and
wave' facility isn't going to accommodate for an adult travelling with 11-15
year old children, without those children holding separate tickets,
inherently mean the whole idea is invalid - regardless of the number of
other people who would benefit from it?

Oyster ticketing developments
 

wrote:

I don't think I've ever been to Kings Cross St Pancras tube needing to get
a ticket/top up Oyster without queues at similar to that. I always try to
have enough credit on Oyster to escape the place before needing to top up.
Westminster isn't much better either, mainly because not enough windows
are staffed most of the time.

Head to the northern ticket hall which never seems to be that busy, or to
the FCC ticket machines - the ones in St Pancras (for Thameslink) certainly
'do' Oyster (as do the ticket windows I believe), not so sure about the ones
at Kings Cross suburban.

Oyster ticketing developments
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:05:48 on Sun, 27 Feb
2011, tim.... remarked:

Yes, because they typically won't have a paywave card. They can't use
their parent's paywave card because the parent is using that. (I don't
accept your argument that a parent will get

I didn't say get, I assumed that they will have.

Do you not?

I've a credit card and a debit card in my wallet and I don't suppose that
I
am in the minority

At the moment I've only got one paywave card

That's because the banks haven't got around to fully issuing them yet.

I have zero, but I expect to have two when they are replaced (in 2013 and
2015). I guess that if I did actually want this facility I could ask for an
earlier replacement

(and that's combined with Oyster which has, erm, potentially unresolved
issues on how the gate will resolve which half I'm trying to use...)

I'm not in the business of handing my children out spare credit cards in
this situation. It's a weakness of the business model.

So stand behind your child whilst you swipe the first card and walk through
yourself when you swipe the second!

I think that you are making a problem where there isn't one (given that
there are already a set of real problems with this aspect)

What I *would* be prepared to do (as a tourist arriving in London) is buy
a set of Oyster cards from a vending machine. If there isn't a Child
Oyster, then that's another business model weakness.

There is a child oyster, it requires pre(3 weeks) registration and costs a
non refundable 10 pounds (as I said earlier).

Actually, that begs the question of whether a child with a paywave would
be charged less than an adult [how would the gate know?] (back to the
"twice the price" issue again).

The "how would the gate know" is the problem that we started with!

To be clear, my issue here is that given that it is quite likely (IMHO) that
a large percentage of casual foreign (including remote UK) users are going
to be families with children and that this system can't cope with the
children, why are they doing it? If the family are going to have to queue
up to buy the child's tickets they might just as well buy an adult oyster
(or 2) at the same time.

This looks to me like a vanity project, OR a route to using it to replace
something that I'd rather they didn't replace.

tim

Oyster ticketing developments
 

"tim...." wrote:
[snip]
To be clear, my issue here is that given that it is quite likely (IMHO)
that a large percentage of casual foreign (including remote UK) users are
going to be families with children and that this system can't cope with
the children, why are they doing it? If the family are going to have to
queue up to buy the child's tickets they might just as well buy an adult
oyster (or 2) at the same time.

This looks to me like a vanity project, OR a route to using it to replace
something that I'd rather they didn't replace.


What on earth makes you think that vast numbers of Londoners and regular
visitors to the capital aren't going to use this system (instead of using an
Oyster card)?

Oyster ticketing developments
 

In message , at 10:57:32 on
Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Mizter T remarked:
At the moment I've only got one paywave card (and that's combined
with Oyster which has, erm, potentially unresolved issues on how the
gate will resolve which half I'm trying to use...)

Curious as to what the expiry date is?

Quite soon (I assume the Oyster component doesn't expire at the same
time as the rest of it - there's about a year's usage credit on it at my
current rate!!)

I'm not in the business of handing my children out spare credit cards
in this situation. It's a weakness of the business model.

I don't think the fact that children wouldn't be able to make use of
the 'pay and wave' fare payment facility inherently invalidates the
whole exercise - though Colin Roseienthal seems to think so, so maybe
your of that opinion too?

I don't think it invalidates it, but the publicity should make the
limitations clear, and maybe try to avoid showing pictures of "happy
families" using them.

What I *would* be prepared to do (as a tourist arriving in London) is
buy a set of Oyster cards from a vending machine. If there isn't a
Child Oyster, then that's another business model weakness.

All 'child' Oyster cards - 5-10, 11-15 and 16+ (for 16-18 year olds)
flavours - are issued to specific individuals, and come with their
photo printed on to the card along with their name and an expiry date
(TfL refer to them as "Oyster photocards" - it's worth noting they are
integral, i.e. it's all on the one card, there's no separate photocard).

So not very spontaneous, or suitable for foreign visitors.

For UK residents whose age can be verified online (with a passport or
driving licence number), then the card can be sent to their UK address.
For those coming from abroad, or UK residents whose age cannot be
verified online, then the card can be collected from one of TfL's
Travel Information Centres (Heathrow, KX, Euston, Victoria, Liverpool
St) on production of proof of identity (with proof of age).

Applying for one of these card costs GBP10 (some applications used to
be free, I can't remember which ones right now).

You might consider that a business model weakness, but just dispensing
non-individualised child Oyster cards to all and sundry would also be a
business model weakness.

It seems to me to be a weakness to require three different kinds of
child Oyster, and to have the preconception that there's going to be
lots of fraud. Does any other major transport operator have so many
hoops to jump through?

TfL do flag up the existence of the child off-peak Day Travelcard (now
GBP 3.00), and suggest that for a few days usage this might be a better
option.

So a quick and easy way to get one (not sure that queuing at a window
cuts it) would be a solution.

Actually, that begs the question of whether a child with a paywave
would be charged less than an adult [how would the gate know?] (back
to the "twice the price" issue again).

This 'pay and wave' facility simply isn't going to encompass child
fares whatsoever.

In other words "no family use" either.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster ticketing developments
 

In message , at 15:43:44
on Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
It's for paying for individual entrances and exits from the tube (some
of the exits will be credits, of course), and for bus rides.

*if* the scheme also has daily and weekly capping, that will simulate
almost all the properties of a daily/weekly paper travelcard, so no need
for people to want one of those.

Well, we already know, I think, that it *won't* charge and refund for
individual entries and exits, but will instead make a single charge at
the end of the day for the total fare for that day.

Luckily, there aren't many "one day" charges which exceed £15 (it's this
barrier we were worrying about), but I'm still expecting the credit card
statement to show the elements of the journey, not just an opaque total.

But that weekly, capped, travelcard-equivalent won't be one paywave for
~£40, it'll be the sum of lots of ~£2 trips capped at ~£6 a day over a 7
day period.

Well, I imagine that when they implement weekly capping they will
still take the money daily (not weekly). So it will be the sum of
lots of daily totals, none of which will exceed the daily cap, of
course.

Wanting their cake and eating it, then. From what you say it'll be quite
OK to have untransparent daily use, but weekly charging (which will
otherwise exceed the £15 limit) will be worked-around by a daily
charge/audit trail.

And despite all the above, each "wave" is only for one leg of a journey,
not a whole day, let alone a whole week - which was the main point I was
trying to make.
--
Roland Perry

Oyster ticketing developments
 

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 10:57:32 on Mon,
28 Feb 2011, Mizter T remarked:

At the moment I've only got one paywave card (and that's combined with
Oyster which has, erm, potentially unresolved issues on how the gate
will resolve which half I'm trying to use...)

Curious as to what the expiry date is?

Quite soon (I assume the Oyster component doesn't expire at the same time
as the rest of it - there's about a year's usage credit on it at my
current rate!!)

I would expect the Oyster bit to carry on working - it'd be interesting to
hear what the official advice will be from Barclaycard - I suspect they'd
probably recommend that customers arrange for any unused credit to be
somehow transferred across to a new (or possibly existing) Oyster card,
simply for the reason that carrying around an expired credit card might lead
to (customer) confusion.


I'm not in the business of handing my children out spare credit cards in
this situation. It's a weakness of the business model.

I don't think the fact that children wouldn't be able to make use of the
'pay and wave' fare payment facility inherently invalidates the whole
exercise - though Colin Roseienthal seems to think so, so maybe your of
that opinion too?

I don't think it invalidates it, but the publicity should make the
limitations clear, and maybe try to avoid showing pictures of "happy
families" using them.

Well, all we've had so far is a press release - one cannot prejudge the
future publicity material. If it features any images, then I wouldn't expect
it to show 'happy families' - rather, just solo travellers.


What I *would* be prepared to do (as a tourist arriving in London) is
buy a set of Oyster cards from a vending machine. If there isn't a
Child Oyster, then that's another business model weakness.

All 'child' Oyster cards - 5-10, 11-15 and 16+ (for 16-18 year olds)
flavours - are issued to specific individuals, and come with their photo
printed on to the card along with their name and an expiry date (TfL refer
to them as "Oyster photocards" - it's worth noting they are integral, i.e.
it's all on the one card, there's no separate photocard).

So not very spontaneous, or suitable for foreign visitors.

Not at all spontaneous, no - though foreign visitors can apply for them in
advance, and collect them on arrival, if they so wish.

Printed/paper Child Day Travelcards (both off-peak and Anytime/peak) and
7-day Travelcards, along with their adult equivalents, can be purchased in
advance and posted to several countries around the world from the online
'visitor tickets' shop on the TfL website.


For UK residents whose age can be verified online (with a passport or
driving licence number), then the card can be sent to their UK address.
For those coming from abroad, or UK residents whose age cannot be verified
online, then the card can be collected from one of TfL's Travel
Information Centres (Heathrow, KX, Euston, Victoria, Liverpool St) on
production of proof of identity (with proof of age).

Applying for one of these card costs GBP10 (some applications used to be
free, I can't remember which ones right now).

You might consider that a business model weakness, but just dispensing
non-individualised child Oyster cards to all and sundry would also be a
business model weakness.

It seems to me to be a weakness to require three different kinds of child
Oyster, and to have the preconception that there's going to be lots of
fraud. Does any other major transport operator have so many hoops to jump
through?

The three kinds of card encompass different discounts aimed at different age
ranges - and a 5-10 photocard isn't going to be necessary if the child is
travelling accompanied by an adult on the Tube/DLR/LO (and they travel free
on buses unaccompanied without needing to present a photocard).

Also, children obviously rather change in appearance as they grow up so I
don't think it's unreasonable for the photocard to need to be updated.


TfL do flag up the existence of the child off-peak Day Travelcard (now GBP
3.00), and suggest that for a few days usage this might be a better
option.

So a quick and easy way to get one (not sure that queuing at a window cuts
it) would be a solution.

FWIW, they are available from NR ticket machines.


Actually, that begs the question of whether a child with a paywave would
be charged less than an adult [how would the gate know?] (back to the
"twice the price" issue again).

This 'pay and wave' facility simply isn't going to encompass child fares
whatsoever.

In other words "no family use" either.

It hasn't been suggested otherwise. Well, aside from accompanied children
(up to four of them) up to and inc. the age of 10 getting free travel on the
Tube/DLR/LO when with an adult, which is no different to what's currently
the case.

Oyster ticketing developments
 

"Roy Badami" wrote:

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
It's for paying for individual entrances and exits from the tube (some
of the exits will be credits, of course), and for bus rides.

*if* the scheme also has daily and weekly capping, that will simulate
almost all the properties of a daily/weekly paper travelcard, so no need
for people to want one of those.

Well, we already know, I think, that it *won't* charge and refund for
individual entries and exits, but will instead make a single charge at
the end of the day for the total fare for that day.

But that weekly, capped, travelcard-equivalent won't be one paywave for
~£40, it'll be the sum of lots of ~£2 trips capped at ~£6 a day over a 7
day period.

Well, I imagine that when they implement weekly capping they will
still take the money daily (not weekly). So it will be the sum of
lots of daily totals, none of which will exceed the daily cap, of
course.


But why do you imagine that?

Oyster ticketing developments
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

"tim...." wrote:
[snip]
To be clear, my issue here is that given that it is quite likely (IMHO)
that a large percentage of casual foreign (including remote UK) users are
going to be families with children and that this system can't cope with
the children, why are they doing it? If the family are going to have to
queue up to buy the child's tickets they might just as well buy an adult
oyster (or 2) at the same time.

This looks to me like a vanity project, OR a route to using it to replace
something that I'd rather they didn't replace.


What on earth makes you think that vast numbers of Londoners and regular
visitors to the capital aren't going to use this system (instead of using
an Oyster card)?

The fact that previous attempts of "micro-payments" by stored-card have
failed miserably.

Perhaps this variation will be different

tim