On Mar 1, 9:36 pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:
Excessive premiums being charged for the Travelcard add-on is solely
the responsibility of the TOC in question - they're the ones who are
messing up the old concept of integration. If they point the finger at
TfL for this they are talking out of their backside, end of - make
sure your justifiable ire is aimed at the right target and don't be
deflected by any attempt to shift the blame elsewhere, because it
rests with the TOC who sets the fare.

How is the amount the TOCs are charged by TfL determined?

It's not charged "by TfL" - the Travelcard is a joint product offered
together by the relevant TOCs, administered through ATOC's London
Schemes Council, and TfL.

The prices for inboundary Travelcards are jointly set by TfL and ATOC.
I can't give you chapter and verse about how this happens, but I think
the default position is for prices to rise by RPI unless TfL and the
TOCs agree otherwise (i.e. lower or higher) - I recall Ken coming out
with some spiel about how he'd have liked to cut Travelcard prices but
the TOCs wouldn't agree to that, so the best he could do with his
powers was to only allow for an RPI increase (obviously he was
politicking, but in doing so outlined the basis to how things worked).

I'm not clear as to whether inboundary Travelcards are subject to any
further fares regulation, i.e. the standard rail fares regulation that
applies elsewhere, what with the fares baskets and all that (possibly
they're not). Essentially the money from Travelcard sales (minus sales
commission) goes into the 'Travelcard pot'.

For outboundary Travelcards, my assumption is that there is an agreed
sum from each outboundary Travelcard (Day - whether Anytime or off-
peak - or season) which gets paid into the 'Travelcard pot' to cover
the Travelcard element of the ticket. I'd imagine this sum is rather
less than the price of an inboundary z1-6 Day Travelcard (let's ignore
seasons for the moment). However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.
(Bear in mind it's not TfL charging the TOCs, it's the TfL and the
TOCs collectively charging the TOCs.)

Therefore it comes down to what a TOC can extract from a punter -
albeit in the context of the rail fares regulatory regime, inc. the
fares baskets and RPI limits on fare increases and all that. Some TOCs
only charge a small premium for the Travelcard add-on - presumably
they think it's worthwhile doing so in order to attract punters to
travel with them (thinking here of off-peak Day Travelcards, which are
aimed at leisure pax), and perhaps they might actually end up netting
less than a CDR to London (?) - other TOCs, such as FCC, seem to
regard it as a way of milking punters. (The chunk of the ticket price
that doesn't go into the 'Travelcard pot' will go into the railway's
complex ORCATS system for allocating revenue amongst the appropriate
operators - from Cambridge, say, the predominant chunk of ticket sales
income for any permitted tickets to London and Travelcards to London
will go to FCC, who provide the fastest service with lots of
capacity.)

The 'Travelcard pot' is then divvied up by what I can only imagine is
a mindbendingly complicated formula as agreed by TfL and the TOCs
(through the ATOC London Schemes Council), based on all sorts of usage
data.

Which is a long way of saying that this is not a case of TfL deciding
they don't like FCC because they smell and charging them lots, whilst
being nice to say c2c because they bring cakes along. FCC or any other
TOC claiming its all TfL's fault would simply be talking nonsense
(though I wouldn't be remotely surprised if that's what you get from
the lower echelons of a TOCs customer service bods - though to be fair
it's a complex issue, and inevitably, they'll have been told f-all
about it, and so will just be following the line to take - though if
you come across the more senior TOC managers, don't let them brush you
off with the lame blame game).

For outboundary Travelcards, my assumption is that there is an agreed
sum from each outboundary Travelcard (Day - whether Anytime or off-
peak - or season) which gets paid into the 'Travelcard pot' to cover
the Travelcard element of the ticket. I'd imagine this sum is rather
less than the price of an inboundary z1-6 Day Travelcard (let's ignore
seasons for the moment). However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.
(Bear in mind it's not TfL charging the TOCs, it's the TfL and the
TOCs collectively charging the TOCs.)

Therefore it comes down to what a TOC can extract from a punter -
albeit in the context of the rail fares regulatory regime, inc. the
fares baskets and RPI limits on fare increases and all that. Some TOCs
only charge a small premium for the Travelcard add-on - presumably
they think it's worthwhile doing so in order to attract punters to
travel with them (thinking here of off-peak Day Travelcards, which are
aimed at leisure pax), and perhaps they might actually end up netting
less than a CDR to London (?) - other TOCs, such as FCC, seem to
regard it as a way of milking punters. (The chunk of the ticket price
that doesn't go into the 'Travelcard pot' will go into the railway's
complex ORCATS system for allocating revenue amongst the appropriate
operators - from Cambridge, say, the predominant chunk of ticket sales
income for any permitted tickets to London and Travelcards to London
will go to FCC, who provide the fastest service with lots of
capacity.)

The 'Travelcard pot' is then divvied up by what I can only imagine is
a mindbendingly complicated formula as agreed by TfL and the TOCs
(through the ATOC London Schemes Council), based on all sorts of usage
data.

Which is a long way of saying that this is not a case of TfL deciding
they don't like FCC because they smell and charging them lots, whilst
being nice to say c2c because they bring cakes along. FCC or any other
TOC claiming its all TfL's fault would simply be talking nonsense
(though I wouldn't be remotely surprised if that's what you get from
the lower echelons of a TOCs customer service bods - though to be fair
it's a complex issue, and inevitably, they'll have been told f-all
about it, and so will just be following the line to take - though if
you come across the more senior TOC managers, don't let them brush you
off with the lame blame game).

I wonder whether these differentials are historic - maybe they go right back
to NSE days?

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

For outboundary Travelcards, my assumption is that there is an agreed
sum from each outboundary Travelcard (Day - whether Anytime or off-
peak - or season) which gets paid into the 'Travelcard pot' to cover
the Travelcard element of the ticket. I'd imagine this sum is rather
less than the price of an inboundary z1-6 Day Travelcard (let's ignore
seasons for the moment). However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.
(Bear in mind it's not TfL charging the TOCs, it's the TfL and the
TOCs collectively charging the TOCs.)

Therefore it comes down to what a TOC can extract from a punter -
albeit in the context of the rail fares regulatory regime, inc. the
fares baskets and RPI limits on fare increases and all that. Some TOCs
only charge a small premium for the Travelcard add-on - presumably
they think it's worthwhile doing so in order to attract punters to
travel with them (thinking here of off-peak Day Travelcards, which are
aimed at leisure pax), and perhaps they might actually end up netting
less than a CDR to London (?) - other TOCs, such as FCC, seem to
regard it as a way of milking punters. (The chunk of the ticket price
that doesn't go into the 'Travelcard pot' will go into the railway's
complex ORCATS system for allocating revenue amongst the appropriate
operators - from Cambridge, say, the predominant chunk of ticket sales
income for any permitted tickets to London and Travelcards to London
will go to FCC, who provide the fastest service with lots of capacity.)

The 'Travelcard pot' is then divvied up by what I can only imagine is
a mindbendingly complicated formula as agreed by TfL and the TOCs
(through the ATOC London Schemes Council), based on all sorts of usage
data.

Which is a long way of saying that this is not a case of TfL deciding
they don't like FCC because they smell and charging them lots, whilst
being nice to say c2c because they bring cakes along. FCC or any other
TOC claiming its all TfL's fault would simply be talking nonsense
(though I wouldn't be remotely surprised if that's what you get from
the lower echelons of a TOCs customer service bods - though to be fair
it's a complex issue, and inevitably, they'll have been told f-all
about it, and so will just be following the line to take - though if
you come across the more senior TOC managers, don't let them brush you
off with the lame blame game).

Do we have more to go on than your assumptions?

When I started working in London in 2001 the outboundary travelcard addon
from Cambridge was much smaller than now (£1 without railcard discount) so
it can't be historic. What I don't know is what the equivalent figure for,
say, Oxford was then.

On the other hand, I think First told me the amount that they had to put
into the pot was based on surveyed usage or something like that.

What is utterly unacceptable in a publicly subsidised system is that there
is no transparency at all.

In article ,
(Graham Harrison) wrote:

I wonder whether these differentials are historic - maybe they go
right back to NSE days?

Can't be. See above.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:


Do we have more to go on than your assumptions?

When I started working in London in 2001 the outboundary travelcard addon
from Cambridge was much smaller than now (£1 without railcard discount) so
it can't be historic. What I don't know is what the equivalent figure for,
say, Oxford was then.

When the outboundary travelcard was invented I feel sure that the add on
fare to the "day return" was a fixed amount regardless of which NSE station
you started from.

tim

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Do we have more to go on than your assumptions?

When I started working in London in 2001 the outboundary travelcard
addon from Cambridge was much smaller than now (£1 without railcard
discount) so it can't be historic. What I don't know is what the
equivalent figure for, say, Oxford was then.

When the outboundary travelcard was invented I feel sure that the
add on fare to the "day return" was a fixed amount regardless of
which NSE station you started from.

Can anyone here stand that up? I hardly used Capitalcards or Day
Travelcards before 2001.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 05:04:58PM -0800, Mizter T wrote:

However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.

I'd not be at all surprised to find they were different. Southern, for
example, will sell a HUGE number of them, whereas Scotrail will sell
very few (they will sell some though - IIRC you can buy a sleeper ticket
plus travelcard, but by default you get a sleeper + a single zone 1/2 tube
ticket). I would therefore expect them to contribute different
proportions of the revenue because their costs per ticket in doing so
are radically different.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

In this episode, R2 and Luke weld the doors shut on their X-Wing,
and Chewbacca discovers that his Ewok girlfriend is really just a
Womble with its nose chopped off.

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 05:04:58PM -0800, Mizter T wrote:

However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.

I'd not be at all surprised to find they were different. Southern, for
example, will sell a HUGE number of them, whereas Scotrail will sell
very few (they will sell some though - IIRC you can buy a sleeper ticket
plus travelcard, but by default you get a sleeper + a single zone 1/2
tube ticket). I would therefore expect them to contribute different
proportions of the revenue because their costs per ticket in doing so
are radically different.

Why mention Scotrail? The examples were all near to London for starters.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, Mar 08, 2011 at 12:56:51PM -0600, wrote:
In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:
On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 05:04:58PM -0800, Mizter T wrote:
However I find it hard to imagine that
different TOCs pay different amounts into the 'Travelcard pot' - i.e.
I reckon an outboundary Day Travelcard from Brighton, Cambridge,
Reading, Southend and Winchester all result in an identical payment
into the 'Travelcard pot' for the Travelcard element of the ticket.
I'd not be at all surprised to find they were different. Southern, for
example, will sell a HUGE number of them, whereas Scotrail will sell
very few (they will sell some though - IIRC you can buy a sleeper ticket
plus travelcard, but by default you get a sleeper + a single zone 1/2
tube ticket). I would therefore expect them to contribute different
proportions of the revenue because their costs per ticket in doing so
are radically different.
Why mention Scotrail? The examples were all near to London for starters.

Scotrail run services into London and (IIRC) sell Travelcards.
Therefore they are a useful edge-case to consider when thinking about
how much goes into the "Travelcard pot".

However, if you want a definitive answer, I suggest you ask
ATOC/TfL/whoever.


--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

All praise the Sun God
For He is a Fun God
Ra Ra Ra!