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Metropolian Line question
In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks
running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. TIA Dave Rowsell Lower Hutt NZ |
Metropolian Line question
"Dave Rowsell" wrote in message ...
In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. TIA Dave Rowsell Lower Hutt NZ Yes, that would be correct. The Met "Mainline" was electrified as far as Amersham. Met services where cut back to Amersham and run fast to Moor Park, on the fast pair. Watfort trains stop at all stations to Moor park on the slow pair. Adrian, Anahiem, CA, US |
Metropolian Line question
"Adrian Hudson" wrote in message m... "Dave Rowsell" wrote in message ... In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Yes, that would be correct. The Met "Mainline" was electrified as far as Amersham. Met services where cut back to Amersham and run fast to Moor Park, on the fast pair. Watfort trains stop at all stations to Moor park on the slow pair. The line was electrified to Harrow (and on to Uxbridge) in1905, and from Harrow to Rickmansworth in 1925 (which was also the year the Watford branch was opened. Until 1960/61 trains for Chesham, Amersham and Aylesbury were hauled by an electric loco to Rickmansworth, where this was changed for a steam loco. After that, electric multiple-units were used, but did not run beyond Amersham, and the line on to Aylesbury was served by diesel trains from Marylebone. Peter |
Metropolian Line question
"Dave Rowsell" wrote in message
... In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? [OT] Many years ago I used to drink with a work colleague whose standard excuse for not buying his round was "must catch the last fast Amersham", and I've never felt quite the same about the line since. Regards Jonathan |
Metropolian Line question
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Metropolian Line question
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. In the 1960s there were peak hour trains which ran fast from Finchley Road to Moor Park, as well as some Watfords which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane, all of these running through Harrow without stopping. I think that, at that time, peak trains to Harrow all called at Wembley Park, Preston Road and Northwick Park. Peter |
Metropolian Line question
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... Snip Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Snip Regards Jonathan That's still the stopping pattern, although some now stop at Wembley Park as well. Passengers at Wembley Park are often not told of the stop and as it is on the Westbound "fast" platform they stand frustrated on the Westbound "slow" platform (sorry don't know the numbers!). There used to be a Fast Chesham which didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, going through platform 1 at Harrow-on-the-Hill around 18:00. That must have been over 10 years ago though. There may have been others, but there certainly aren't any now. John. |
Metropolian Line question
In message , Peter Masson
writes "Adrian Hudson" wrote in message om... "Dave Rowsell" wrote in message .. . In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Yes, that would be correct. The Met "Mainline" was electrified as far as Amersham. Met services where cut back to Amersham and run fast to Moor Park, on the fast pair. Watfort trains stop at all stations to Moor park on the slow pair. The line was electrified to Harrow (and on to Uxbridge) in1905, and from Harrow to Rickmansworth in 1925 (which was also the year the Watford branch was opened. Until 1960/61 trains for Chesham, Amersham and Aylesbury were hauled by an electric loco to Rickmansworth, where this was changed for a steam loco. After that, electric multiple-units were used, but did not run beyond Amersham, and the line on to Aylesbury was served by diesel trains from Marylebone. I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Metropolian Line question
In message , Peter Masson
writes "Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. In the 1960s there were peak hour trains which ran fast from Finchley Road to Moor Park, as well as some Watfords which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane, all of these running through Harrow without stopping. I think that, at that time, peak trains to Harrow all called at Wembley Park, Preston Road and Northwick Park. There were some peak hour trains in the late 60's which might have stopped once between Chorleywood & Marylebone. Certainly I had to make sure I didn't get on them to go to school in Rickmansworth... (of course these were BR not Met trains). There were also a few through trains to Chesham in the peak hour, but usually one had to change, I think at Chalfont & Latimer. -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Metropolian Line question
They briefly revived the practise of running trains non stop from Moor Park
to Finchley Road in the very late eighties for a year or so in rush hours. The Harrow stop was restored after mass protests (including myself) For the last 3 or 4 years, fast amersham trains stop at wembley park at off peak times only. "Peter Masson" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. In the 1960s there were peak hour trains which ran fast from Finchley Road to Moor Park, as well as some Watfords which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane, all of these running through Harrow without stopping. I think that, at that time, peak trains to Harrow all called at Wembley Park, Preston Road and Northwick Park. Peter |
Metropolian Line question
In reply to news post, which Five Cats ] wrote on
Sun, 21 Dec 2003 - In message , Peter Masson writes "Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. In the 1960s there were peak hour trains which ran fast from Finchley Road to Moor Park, as well as some Watfords which were fast Finchley Road to North Harrow, and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane, all of these running through Harrow without stopping. I think that, at that time, peak trains to Harrow all called at Wembley Park, Preston Road and Northwick Park. There were some peak hour trains in the late 60's which might have stopped once between Chorleywood & Marylebone. Certainly I had to make sure I didn't get on them to go to school in Rickmansworth... (of course these were BR not Met trains). There were also a few through trains to Chesham in the peak hour, but usually one had to change, I think at Chalfont & Latimer. I think the last time the Me trains did not stop at Harrow was for some peak hour services in the 1980s Today, off peak Amersham trains call at Wembley Park and more often than not use the slow lines, thus passing through Northwick Park and Preston Road. They also often catch up an all stations train and thus passengers end up being held at signals outside of the stations! I have been on several trains which have arrived at Harrow on platform 6 at the same time as an all stations train on platform 5, the all stations train goes first and the "fast" ex Amersham train follows being held up by the slower train in front. There are now more Chiltern trains running from and to Marylebone which miss out Met stations. None of the peak Chiltern trains call at Rickmansworth (they have not stopped at Moor Park for years) and there are a few which run non stop Marylebone to Amersham or Marylebone to Great Missenden (and return). Before the 4 track section north of Harrow was opened, there must have been a real bottle neck as the line had to cope with Met stopping trains and express services to Nottingham and beyond. I have some details of the services through Amersham in the 1930s on my web site - see sig below if you are interested -- Matthew P Jones - www.amersham.org.uk My view of the Metropolitan Line www.metroland.org.uk - actually I like it Don't reply to it will not be read You can reply to knap AT Nildram dot co dot uk |
Metropolian Line question
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
... Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. Thanks. That was the bit I wasn't sure about. How does the up (Met) fast coming from North Harrow cross over the slows to get to the north side of the formation in Harrow-on-the-Hill station? Is this done as part of the flying junction arrangement for the Uxbridge line? Regards Jonathan |
Metropolian Line question
In article ], Five Cats wrote:
I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip. -- Jock Mackirdy Bedford |
Metropolian Line question
Jonathan Morton wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ... Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant. Thanks. That was the bit I wasn't sure about. How does the up (Met) fast coming from North Harrow cross over the slows to get to the north side of the formation in Harrow-on-the-Hill station? Is this done as part of the flying junction arrangement for the Uxbridge line? See http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/metr....html#features -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Metropolian Line question
In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two
tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. As far as I've been able to gather from various sources, Harrow-On-The-Hill has always been the point where, heading south, the GC and Met parted ways. In "Great Central Railway's London Extension" by Robert Robotham, two different track plans are given for Harrow-On-The-Hill: The first shows harrow as having two side platforms and one island platform, with four tracks. To the south-east, the two northern tracks were the Met line to Baker Street, and the two southern ones were the GC to Marylebone. However, the trackwork allowed any Met train from the south to access all but the most northern platform, and vice versa that any Met train from the north could access all but the southermost platform. The GC, however, could only use the two most southern platforms when arriving from Marylebone, and so consequently would have to use them when approaching from the north too. The Met lines as far as Harrow-on-the-Hill were quadrupled in 1932 Heading north-west from the station, the four track converged to 2, shortly before diverging again into 4 - the northern tracks heading to Rickmansworth, the other two being the Met branch to Rayners Lane / Uxbridge. This was obviously a huge bottleneck, and in 1936 a dive-under was put in to remove conflicts. In the early 1960s, however, the Met lines were quadrupled further north from Harrow-on-the-Hill, and separated from the GC lines (the new track-plan showing only one physical connection between the two). From the south, the arrangement is simple enough - two up lines to Baker street, two down lines from Baker street, then Marylebone up/down. The Met lines had scissors at the southern end of the station to allow trains from either Rick'wth or Uxbridge to access either of the fast or slow lines, however switching from the down direction to the up direction was possible only by a) a head-shunt fitted in the centre of the four tracks, north of the station, or a trailing cross-over between the middle two tracks, which were for Uxbridge (see below). Heading north-west from Harrow, the two GC lines remain at the south side, but on the met, the outer-most two lines go to Rick'wth, whilst the inner two lines served Uxbridge. The dive-under then took the two GC tracks and the down Rick'wth line of the Met over the two Uxbridge tracks, giving (from north-east) Met Rickw'th up/down, GC up/down, Met Uxbridge up/down. Presumably, the four tracks heading towards Rickmansworth pair off to two tracks after Moor Park (which was completely rebuilt when the GC/Met was quadded) / Croxleyhall Junction (or what I call "the Watford triangle", to rhyme with "Bermuda" ;-P). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). Most definitely a good arrangement. Had full-scale quadrupling of the GCR occured, this is the model they intended to use. Fast on the outside, slow on the inside, local stations therefore needing just a single island platform. You can't get simpler than that, can you? :) This pairing by direction does not appear to continue north of Harrow, judging by the track-plans I have. It merely separated the GC and Met lines. However, more recent works may have changed this arrangment. Mayn alopogies for the inevitable millions of spelling / grammar mistakes which may have rendered this posting unintelligible, but my brain is running on empty at the moment, demanding sleep urgently! Ronnie -- http://www.blugman.freeserve.co.uk Due to recent viruspams, any email containing the word "Microsoft" will not be received. |
Metropolian Line question
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Metropolian Line question
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... In article , (Jock Mackirdy) wrote: In article ], Five Cats wrote: I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip. Er, but steam continued to run on the Met for another 10 years, until 1971! Just not on passenger services. And not just on the Met, steam worked over the District as well. |
Metropolian Line question
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message
... "Dave Rowsell" wrote in message ... In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). This is only efficient on space if you are happy to have the fast lines wiggling like crazy as they go past minor stations. If you want decent alignments for the fast lines, the lengthy sliver of land required to fit a minor station platform in the middle of a fast-slow-slow-fast arrangement might use more land than two platforms on the outside of a slow-fast-fast-slow arrangement. I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. This would require twice as many properties to be purchased / demolished, unless the land for 4 tracks had been set aside when the line was first built. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
Metropolian Line question
In message , Jock Mackirdy
writes In article ], Five Cats wrote: I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip. Now that I don't remember. Where was it, please? -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Metropolian Line question
"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message ... "Dave Rowsell" wrote in message ... In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. P. E. Garbutt's "How the Underground Works" (London Transport, 1968 revision) has track plans of the completed Harrow - Moor Park 4-tracking (fig 18), and of the staging of the works 1959-1962 (fig 19). In essence, new double track was built to the west of the line from N. Harrow to Northwood Hills (inc), with the existing platforms remaining on the new slow lines and no platforms on the fast; at Northwood the new tracks are to the east, with a new southbound platform & the site of the old southbound platform becoming the northbound one, the old northbound being demolished; at Moor Park the new lines were back on the western side, with the site of the old southbound platform becoming an island serving the slow lines. and a new island platform for the fast lines. Hope this makes sense! Mike |
Metropolian Line question
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:05:34 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Masson"
wrote: and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to Rayners Lane, The pedant in me wishes to point out they were fast from Finchley Road to West Harrow, an exhilarating trip in a "tank" (F-stock) -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Metropolian Line question
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:31:35 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Morton"
wrote: Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? Most now also stop at Wembley Park. I revisited the line during a visit to the UK in October. The speeds in general were very much lower than I remember, although the A stock looked in excellent condition given its age. The indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this in use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service? Very much so. Many peak trains in the sixties were non-stop Finchley Road to Moor Park, including some on Saturday lunchtime. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Metropolian Line question
In article ], Five Cats wrote:
In message , Jock Mackirdy writes In article ], Five Cats wrote: I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip. Now that I don't remember. Where was it, please? Down the embankment beside Rickmansworth engine siding. Where else would it be? -- Jock Mackirdy Bedford |
Metropolian Line question
In article , Bill Hayles wrote:
The pedant in me wishes to point out they were fast from Finchley Road to West Harrow, an exhilarating trip in a "tank" (F-stock) Was that before F stock was demoted to work the East London Line? I rode one there not long before they were scrapped. -- Jock Mackirdy Bedford |
Metropolian Line question
In message , Jock Mackirdy
writes In article ], Five Cats wrote: In message , Jock Mackirdy writes In article ], Five Cats wrote: I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on holiday to my grandparents in Kent. After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip. Now that I don't remember. Where was it, please? Down the embankment beside Rickmansworth engine siding. Where else would it be? I think I can only remember that after it was altered for the electric trains - several siding on the N. side of the track. However surely it was still burning when those sidings were enlarged etc.? -- Five Cats Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net |
Metropolian Line question
In article , Jonathan Morton
writes A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. No: the six platform tracks at Harrow are connected thus: Northwards Southwards 1 Northbound fast Down ex-GCR 2 Southbound fast Up ex-GCR 3 Northbound slow Northbound fast 4 Northbound Uxbridge Northbound slow 5 Southbound Uxbridge Southbound slow 6 Southbound slow Southbound fast The Uxbridge pair cross under 1-3 through the diveunder. There are various other connections; in particular, the fast lines north of the station connect to 3 and 6 as well and 1 and 2, and there are scissors between the 3/4 and 5/6 pairs south of the station. Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan was heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in 1913, Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in 1961. Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of their construction. Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with the intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years '59 and '60). A60 and A62, actually. Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is strictly correct. All the doublings involved a second pair of tracks but some reshuffling. It was never as simple as just adding a second pair alongside. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction But only since some date around 1938; before then it was paired by speed. The rearrangement (including new signals for two tracks) was done in two weekend (Sat pm to Mon am, I think) blockades; between the two dates, there was a flat crossing between the centre pair of tracks somewhere around Dollis Hill. (very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, But this arrangement has disadvantages, including requiring a wobble in the fast tracks and problems at junctions. I think this continues north of Harrow, but I can't remember exactly. No, north of Harrow the pairing is by usage. So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved by a new track on each side, BICBW. You are, I'm afraid. -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Metropolian Line question
In article , Ronnie Clark
writes Presumably, the four tracks heading towards Rickmansworth pair off to two tracks after Moor Park Not quite. The Watford branch turns off the slow pair, then the two pairs continue together for a little further before merging into one. Exact distances are on my web site. This pairing by direction does not appear to continue north of Harrow, judging by the track-plans I have. It merely separated the GC and Met lines. No: north of Harrow all four tracks belong[ed] to the Met. The GC just ran over the fast (or the slow when things were broken). -- Clive D.W. Feather, writing for himself | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |
Metropolian Line question
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Metropolian Line question
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:58:22 GMT, Jock Mackirdy
wrote: In article , Bill Hayles wrote: The pedant in me wishes to point out they were fast from Finchley Road to West Harrow, an exhilarating trip in a "tank" (F-stock) Was that before F stock was demoted to work the East London Line? I rode one there not long before they were scrapped. In 1951, the F stock was renovated and moved from the District to the Metropolitan and was based at Neasden. It was powerful and fast, and ideal for the fast Uxbridge service (the slow service was the domain of COP stock). Then, as now, the East London line was served by units kept at New Cross but nominally based at Neasden, and stock was rotated regularly. With the advent of the A60 and A62 stock, scrapping started in either 1961 or 1962 (I'm not sure). The last Uxbridge service was on 15th March 1963, and the last of all on the East London line on 7th September 1963. It's a shame none were preserved. They were unique, quite like anything before or since. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Metropolian Line question
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Metropolian Line question
In article , Bill Hayles wrote:
With the advent of the A60 and A62 stock, scrapping started in either 1961 or 1962 (I'm not sure). The last Uxbridge service was on 15th March 1963, and the last of all on the East London line on 7th September 1963. My ride on the East London line must have been only a few weeks before the end of the service. It's a shame none were preserved. They were unique, quite *[un]*like anything before or since. I'll second that. At that time my normal mode of travel was wooden-bodied Q-converted District stock, and I also sampled early standard tube stock somewhere (with centre door posts). That must have been on the GNCR. -- Jock Mackirdy Bedford |
Metropolian Line question
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Metropolian Line question
Matthew P Jones wrote in message ...
I have some details of the services through Amersham in the 1930s on my web site - see sig below if you are interested Matthew, Your Websites are great. Then, the subject matter does interest me, being a Bucks guy and a rail enthusiast. :-) Adrian. (Webmaster http://www.losangelesmetro.net/) |
Metropolian Line question
In article ,
(Cast_Iron) wrote: "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... In article , (Jock Mackirdy) wrote: In article , Bill Hayles wrote: With the advent of the A60 and A62 stock, scrapping started in either 1961 or 1962 (I'm not sure). The last Uxbridge service was on 15th March 1963, and the last of all on the East London line on 7th September 1963. My ride on the East London line must have been only a few weeks before the end of the service. It's a shame none were preserved. They were unique, quite *[un]*like anything before or since. I'll second that. At that time my normal mode of travel was wooden-bodied Q-converted District stock, and I also sampled early standard tube stock somewhere (with centre door posts). That must have been on the GNCR. District Q stock was steel bodied. Which Q stock are you referring to, there was more than one? In this respect all of it, from Q23 (G) to Q38 (Q). -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Metropolian Line question
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:48:52 +0000 (UTC), "Cast_Iron"
wrote: "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... been on the GNCR. District Q stock was steel bodied. Which Q stock are you referring to, there was more than one? Are you going to write the twenty page essay, or shall I, Colin? To Cast_Iron - the story of the Q stock is a long and complex one on which Colin and I have written extensively in the past in this group and uk.railway. There were a great many variations within the general classification "Q", some obvious to the layman (Q38 versus the rest), others of interest to the anoraks like me. -- Bill Hayles http://billnot.com |
Metropolian Line question
In article , (Bill
Hayles) wrote: On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:48:52 +0000 (UTC), "Cast_Iron" wrote: "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... been on the GNCR. District Q stock was steel bodied. Which Q stock are you referring to, there was more than one? Are you going to write the twenty page essay, or shall I, Colin? :-) To Cast_Iron - the story of the Q stock is a long and complex one on which Colin and I have written extensively in the past in this group and uk.railway. Not me in the latter. There are some photos on my web site with a few historic details of the Q Stock. The only types of Q stock not illustrated there were the Q35 (M & N) stock. They looked pretty similar to the Q31 (L) stock. There were a great many variations within the general classification "Q", some obvious to the layman (Q38 versus the rest), others of interest to the anoraks like me. :-)) -- Colin Rosenstiel Cambridge http://www.cix.co.uk/~rosenstiel/trains/ |
Metropolian Line question
In reply to news post, which Ronnie Clark
wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2003 - In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two tracks running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent photo shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station. That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and including Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation, giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement continues north of Harrow Junction. As far as I've been able to gather from various sources, Harrow-On-The-Hill has always been the point where, heading south, the GC and Met parted ways. In "Great Central Railway's London Extension" by Robert Robotham, two different track plans are given for Harrow-On-The-Hill: If it is of any interest, I have put a picture of Harrow on the Hill in the 1930s here http://www.metroland.nildram.co.uk/harrow.htm I don't have full details of the picture to hand, but you can see the new station being built over the old -- Matthew P Jones - www.amersham.org.uk My view of the Metropolitan Line www.metroland.org.uk - actually I like it Don't reply to it will not be read You can reply to knap AT Nildram dot co dot uk |
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