"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article , (Andrew
P Smith) wrote:

In article , Richard
J.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?

I think they have no such power, assuming it's the same on National Rail.
When a fare dodger was playing dead the other day on a train I was on the



I don't know if Railway bylaws change things but in normal circumstances;

Anyone acting for the owner of the property has the right to use "necessary"
force to remove someone.

Anyone has the right to arrest anyone else if *they have* committed an
arrestable offence. A police officer has the right to arrest anyone if he
*suspects they have* committed an arrestable offence.

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Richard J.
writes
Andrew P Smith wrote:
In article , Alek
writes
snip.
Anybody care to speculate if TfL will utilise the SUNBUS (Nice)
Revenue Protection Model...????


Well, that's as may be in France, but this is the UK. No requirement
to carry ID, and the law doesn't permit the RPI's to demand anything.
If they are not happy with the info you give then they could call
the BTP but that would hold up the train. If they tried to forcibly
remove you from the train that would be assault.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of
this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.


Any property owner has the right to use reasonable force to remove
undesirables and to answer your initial question Rip's can check details
over the phone using the voters roll etc, any failure to show up on this
usually means a BOP reception committee and criminal charges for evasion,
rather just the civil penalty a PF is.


C

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Richard J.
writes
Andrew P Smith wrote:
In article , Alek
writes
snip.
Anybody care to speculate if TfL will utilise the SUNBUS (Nice)
Revenue Protection Model...????


Well, that's as may be in France, but this is the UK. No requirement
to carry ID, and the law doesn't permit the RPI's to demand anything.
If they are not happy with the info you give then they could call
the BTP but that would hold up the train. If they tried to forcibly
remove you from the train that would be assault.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of
this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.


Any property owner has the right to use reasonable force to remove
undesirables and to answer your initial question RPI's can check details
over the phone using the voters roll etc, any failure to show up on this
usually means a BTP reception committee and criminal charges for evasion,
rather just the civil penalty a PF is.


C

(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote in message ...

When a fare dodger was playing dead the other day on a train I was on the
Inspector couldn't touch him to try and wake him up and eventually called
an ambulance for a special stop at Stevenage in case he really was dead.

If that practice were universal it would preclude the giving of
first-aid, including resuscitation.

In article ,
(Chippy) wrote:

(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote in message
...

When a fare dodger was playing dead the other day on a train I was on
the Inspector couldn't touch him to try and wake him up and
eventually called an ambulance for a special stop at Stevenage in
case he really was dead.

If that practice were universal it would preclude the giving of
first-aid, including resuscitation.

How many ticket inspectors give first aid? It's a matter of training and
the detailed circumstances of the case.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes
In article ,
(Chippy) wrote:

(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote in message
...

When a fare dodger was playing dead the other day on a train I was on
the Inspector couldn't touch him to try and wake him up and
eventually called an ambulance for a special stop at Stevenage in
case he really was dead.

If that practice were universal it would preclude the giving of
first-aid, including resuscitation.

How many ticket inspectors give first aid? It's a matter of training and
the detailed circumstances of the case.

Many RCIs are first-aiders too; we can all do the training if we want
to.
As for the detailed circumstances of the case, FIRST-aid is just that;
you do what you can until the professionals arrive....
--
Kat I've always wanted to be somebody. Next time I'll be more specific.

In article , Kat
writes

I see what you mean but doesn't an a caution have to precede an arrest?

No.
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.

In article , MrC
writes

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Richard J.
writes
Andrew P Smith wrote:
In article , Alek
writes
snip.
Anybody care to speculate if TfL will utilise the SUNBUS (Nice)
Revenue Protection Model...????


Well, that's as may be in France, but this is the UK. No requirement
to carry ID, and the law doesn't permit the RPI's to demand anything.
If they are not happy with the info you give then they could call
the BTP but that would hold up the train. If they tried to forcibly
remove you from the train that would be assault.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of
this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.


Any property owner has the right to use reasonable force to remove
undesirables and to answer your initial question RPI's can check details
over the phone using the voters roll etc, any failure to show up on this
usually means a BTP reception committee and criminal charges for evasion,
rather just the civil penalty a PF is.


C



Well, my name doesn't appear on the public version of the electoral
roll.

I could say that I've just moved to the property the previous week and
as the electoral roll is a 'snapshot' of those at that address at one
point in the year that is entirely plausible.

I do not believe you are correct that any property owner in the UK has
the right to use reasonable force to remove undesirables. Sine when did
a RPI become the owner of NR??
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.

In message , Andrew P Smith
writes
In article , MrC
writes

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Richard J.
writes
Andrew P Smith wrote:
In article , Alek
writes
snip.
Anybody care to speculate if TfL will utilise the SUNBUS (Nice)
Revenue Protection Model...????


Well, that's as may be in France, but this is the UK. No requirement
to carry ID, and the law doesn't permit the RPI's to demand anything.
If they are not happy with the info you give then they could call
the BTP but that would hold up the train. If they tried to forcibly
remove you from the train that would be assault.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of
this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.


Any property owner has the right to use reasonable force to remove
undesirables and to answer your initial question RPI's can check details
over the phone using the voters roll etc, any failure to show up on this
usually means a BTP reception committee and criminal charges for evasion,
rather just the civil penalty a PF is.


C



Well, my name doesn't appear on the public version of the electoral
roll.

I could say that I've just moved to the property the previous week and
as the electoral roll is a 'snapshot' of those at that address at one
point in the year that is entirely plausible.

I do not believe you are correct that any property owner in the UK has
the right to use reasonable force to remove undesirables. Sine when did
a RPI become the owner of NR??
The LUL & NR byelaw number 24 states the following:

(2) Removal of persons


(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be
in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if
asked to do so by an authorised person.


(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be
in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when
asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway
by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is
in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these
Byelaws.

This is followed by details of who an authorised person is

25 Interpretation
(1) Definitions
In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:
"authorised person" means;

(i) a person acting in the course of his duties, who is an employee or
agent of or any other person authorised by the Operator or authorised by
a person operating any railway assets, and


Byelaw number 18 requires you to show a ticket - therefore 'no ticket -
no travel' and you must leave if requested and may be removed if you
don't

--
Martin Summerfield

In article , Martin Summerfield
writes
In message , Andrew P Smith
writes
In article , MrC
writes

"Andrew P Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Richard J.
writes
Andrew P Smith wrote:
In article , Alek
writes
snip.
Anybody care to speculate if TfL will utilise the SUNBUS (Nice)
Revenue Protection Model...????


Well, that's as may be in France, but this is the UK. No requirement
to carry ID, and the law doesn't permit the RPI's to demand anything.
If they are not happy with the info you give then they could call
the BTP but that would hold up the train. If they tried to forcibly
remove you from the train that would be assault.

Is that true? I would have thought that they were entitled to use
reasonable force to eject an unauthorised person from private property,
like bouncers in clubs or pubs.

I would take it as assault. Do you know if the law exists for an RPI to
forcibly remove someone from LUL property?
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of
this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.


Any property owner has the right to use reasonable force to remove
undesirables and to answer your initial question RPI's can check details
over the phone using the voters roll etc, any failure to show up on this
usually means a BTP reception committee and criminal charges for evasion,
rather just the civil penalty a PF is.


C



Well, my name doesn't appear on the public version of the electoral
roll.

I could say that I've just moved to the property the previous week and
as the electoral roll is a 'snapshot' of those at that address at one
point in the year that is entirely plausible.

I do not believe you are correct that any property owner in the UK has
the right to use reasonable force to remove undesirables. Sine when
did a RPI become the owner of NR??
The LUL & NR byelaw number 24 states the following:

(2) Removal of persons


(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be
in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately
if asked to do so by an authorised person.


(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to
be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave
when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the
railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of
removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach
of these Byelaws.

This is followed by details of who an authorised person is

25 Interpretation
(1) Definitions
In these Byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:
"authorised person" means;

(i) a person acting in the course of his duties, who is an employee or
agent of or any other person authorised by the Operator or authorised
by a person operating any railway assets, and


Byelaw number 18 requires you to show a ticket - therefore 'no ticket -
no travel' and you must leave if requested and may be removed if you
don't


Martin, thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.

This backs up what I once saw on the Central where 2 SA's literally
dragged 2 women beggars off a train. Think it was Marble Arch -
certainly the centre of town.
--
Andrew
Electronic communications can be altered and therefore the integrity of this
communication can not be guaranteed.
Views expressed in this communication are those of the author and not
associations or companies I am involved with.