On Fri, 06 May 2011 11:31:12 +0100, Clive Page
wrote:

On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without? What about Overground and suburban rail,
where the Oyster pads are often quite hard to find. And what's the
distinction between pink and yellow pads? We know the answers, but can
a visitor find them easily?

If even we natives get caught out from time to time with an uncompleted
journey or two, is it surprising that visitors get caught out quite
often? And if you are just in London for a day or two, you really don't
want to spend hours on the phone or web to fix an unresolved journey on
your Oyster card.

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am not a foreign visitor (although after the election results that
may become the position soon !!!) and I concede I have made mistakes
on at least a couple of occasions. I still think the benefits far
outweigh the potential difficulties. I really like the convenience of
having the Oyster card and not needing to buy a ticket. If I lose out
on the odd occasion I am happy to treat it as a donation to TfL as I
support the concept of public transport.

I am less concerned than some about the privacy implications as I am
not sufficiently immodest to think that Scotland Yard will be spending
their time tracking my movements round London.

I'm actually campaigning for an Oyster type card for Scotland. (I say
Oyster type as I know it will be ITSO compliant instead). I know
there are practical difficulties about unresolved journeys. Will I
get charged a full single fare to Thurso is I omit to touch out? That
might alter my attitude!

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 May 2011 11:31:12 +0100, Clive Page
wrote:

On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without? What about Overground and suburban rail,
where the Oyster pads are often quite hard to find. And what's the
distinction between pink and yellow pads? We know the answers, but can
a visitor find them easily?

If even we natives get caught out from time to time with an uncompleted
journey or two, is it surprising that visitors get caught out quite
often? And if you are just in London for a day or two, you really don't
want to spend hours on the phone or web to fix an unresolved journey on
your Oyster card.

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am not a foreign visitor (although after the election results that
may become the position soon !!!) and I concede I have made mistakes
on at least a couple of occasions. I still think the benefits far
outweigh the potential difficulties. I really like the convenience of
having the Oyster card and not needing to buy a ticket. If I lose out
on the odd occasion I am happy to treat it as a donation to TfL as I
support the concept of public transport.

Problem is the donation is going to be of the order of 15 pounds (twice the
new 7.80 default fare).

far too much a donation, IMHO

tim

"Scott" wrote in message
...

I'm actually campaigning for an Oyster type card for Scotland. (I say
Oyster type as I know it will be ITSO compliant instead). I know
there are practical difficulties about unresolved journeys. Will I
get charged a full single fare to Thurso is I omit to touch out? That
might alter my attitude!

Oyster style PAYG (with max cash fare deducted on touch in and rebate on
exit) over anything larger than a well defined urban area isn't really
possible - as you rightly point out.

Paul S

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 04/05/2011 21:31, Scott wrote:
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to expect the users to operate the
system correctly and to touch in and out on each journey as required.

Yes, but if you are a foreign visitor, finding out all the arcane rules
and then finding all the oyster pads can be pretty difficult. Is it
obvious that on tubes you have to touch in and out, but on buses just
touch in. Then what do you do on a tram? And does the answer depend on
whether you take the tram from a boarding point with a gate-line like
Wimbledon, or one without?

And in this case - does it make a difference if the tram is one running in
Croydon or one running in Docklands?

(and the answer is a most confusing - YES it does)

tim

On May 6, 11:31*am, Clive Page wrote:
[snip]

I have to say, that I use Oyster in London reluctantly, and only when a
paper One-day travel card is unavailable or much more expensive. *And
when visiting cities abroad I'm extremely reluctant to take out an
Oyster-equivalent card unless I can find out in advance exactly what I'm
letting myself in for. *In Paris, for example, the carnet of 10 tickets
is still available, and that works for me.

I am the exact opposite to you. As I will typically be making a lot of
use of public transport I will seek out the "ride at will" ticket or
smartcard version thereof. This saves me having multiple single trip
transactions right throughout a stay or worrying about finding cash
all the time. I'll do this even if I might make a financial loss
because I value the convenience of having "travel" in my pocket.

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Fortunately many systems do provide some English language info but
usually it is a subset of the info provided in the native language.
While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris. That was dealt with very quickly. I
had an Octopus Card fail in HK on my final day there and I was
refunded on the spot based on my estimate of the card balance. Some
systems have features that London does not have (e.g exit validation
on buses) but you learn to cope with those features. I didn't know
how to use my Suica on a tram in Tokyo but coped just fine; ditto on a
Tokyo bus. I even had a ticket machine revert to Japanese part way
through a top up transaction but "guessed" what to do and got the
money on the card fine.

Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

--
Paul C
via Google

Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris.

Compare that with how often London's Oyster goes wrong, and it's
obvious that TfL must be doing something wrong somewhere.

"solar penguin" wrote in message
...

Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

Don't got to southern Sweden then!.

As of June you will no longer be able to pay your fare "on the bus". You
either buy a ticket from a station or pay with (their) Oyster equivalent (or
walk)

tim

In message , at 22:08:46 on
Fri, 6 May 2011, Paul Corfield remarked:

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

Because this is a self-selected group of people who are interested in
researching fares.

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with
abroad just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work
out how to get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious
point-to-point service between the airport and their destination).

For example, there's a much under-used machine by the exit of Geneva's
baggage reclaim hall that dispenses a free public transport ticket.
There's a railway station (all the frequent trains stop at the city
centre) under the concourse, and buses and trolleybuses right outside.
Some people are being picked up, but loads head straight for the taxi
rank.
--
Roland Perry

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2011 06:13:21 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:

On this basis I have a RATP Mobilis card (their version of a ODTC but
you have a ID card), a Singapore EZ Pass, Hong Kong Octopus and Tokyo
Suica. I've had magnetic Metrocards in Hong Kong and paper "seasons"
in other cities. I cannot claim to know all the ins and outs of these
fare systems but I do what most people will do and that is search the
web and do a bit of research beforehand.

Is that what "most people" do? Really? Have you got any surveys to
back you up on this?

No surveys to prove it. Do you have some surveys to disprove my point?
We can trade points like this all day if you'd like ;-)

_You're_ the one making the claim. It's _your_ claim so it's up to
_you_ to prove it, not up to me to disprove it.


I know I've never looked up how to pay for the local public transport
before taking a trip somewhere. Check whether there is any public
transport nearby, yes. But nothing more. And I know people who don't
even do that much.

OK so some people are different. If people don't bother to the extent
that you are suggesting I do rather wonder why operators in all these
foreign places bother to put any helpful info on their websites in
English for visitors. Why not let them wallow in their ignorance and use
taxis rather than public transport during their visit?

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

I never said that no-one ever does research. I'm just questioning
your claim that "most people" do it.

While I suppose I might be deemed an "expert user" here in London I
can't be said to be that in these other places. I cannot recall ever
being wrongly charged nor have I been caught out by the system other
than a couple of times in Paris.

Compare that with how often London's Oyster goes wrong, and it's
obvious that TfL must be doing something wrong somewhere.

So you're prepared to accept my single example based on a few trips as
some sort of proof that TfL's system is broken.

At least that _is_ a real example based on real trips, not something
you've just made up with no evidence at all.

Even a little evidence is still better than none.

There may be all sorts
of problems going on with these other systems that I have never fallen
across.

But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. That's the difference.

You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none. Obviously that doesn't apply in the topsy-turvy world of
Oyster...

On Fri, 6 May 2011 05:33:07 -0700 (PDT), Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English

They have information, including an Oyster PDF, in Polish, French,
Spanish, Italian, German, Turkish, Chinese, Arabic, Greek, Urdu, Tamil,
Bengali, Hindi, Gujarati and Punjabi.

There is a box on the front page.

David