solar penguin wrote:

You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none. Obviously that doesn't apply in the topsy-turvy world of
Oyster...


I'm sorry, I shouldn't've said that. It was a silly, cheap shot.
Instead I'll try and explain things properly.

You look up transport fares in advance. Yes, that is a sample of one,
and you can't extrapolate from it to claim that "most people" do
this. The most you can conclude is that it is _possible_ for people
to look up transport fares in advance.

You've used other PAYG systems with fewer problems than Oyster.
Again, I can't use that sample of one to claim that "most people" have
used other PAYG systems with fewer problems than Oyster. But that's
OK because I'm not interested in claiming that. I can, however, use
it to conclude that it's _possible_ to have PAYG systems with fewer
problems than Oyster. And if it's possible then why isn't TfL doing
it?

See the difference? Claiming that something's possible is different
from claiming that "most people" actually do it, so they require
different kinds of evidence.

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In message
,
solar penguin wrote:

But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. That's the difference.

I spent a week in London just before Easter. 15 Underground train
journeys (i.e. more than "a few"), 3 buses, all on Oyster. Zero
problems.

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.


Interesting. How do you manage it? What's the secret?

I notice you did an awful lot of Underground journeys (more in one
week than I've done in two months) but no normal trains, and hardly
any buses. Could that have something to do with it?

In message , at 08:48:13 on Sat, 7
May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.

I've had self-inflicted problems (forgetting to touch-out at a DLR
station because the pads were hidden away and didn't provide a ready
reminder).

But also system-inflicted problems (a mystery overcharge which they
confessed to, but was quite some trouble to pick up[1] due to the "you
must nominate somewhere specific to do it" syndrome).

I also had problems when trying to set up auto-topup because my travel
plans changed and I didn't use the "somewhere nominated" station after
all. So had to re-specify a place and try again on a later trip.

A later administrative pickup failed because they didn't say at the
beginning of the request process that the instruction would time out
after a week. (And I wasn't going to be there for about a month).

I've also got a Barclaycard OnePulse, and "someone" registered it online
(with a userid clearly associated with me, but which I would never have
picked, and a password I obviously never supplied) and failed to tell me
they'd done it, or supply login details. It took a half hour call to the
helpline to sort that out.

My annual Oyster usage is about £30, and I've had one since they were
first introduced (and the OnePulse since first issued). So a regular but
infrequent customer. And given the level of my usage, quite a high
percentage of faffing about.

I'm prepared to accept that daily users will get more accustomed to the
way it works, and suffer fewer problems as a result. But tourists are
likely to be unfamiliar users, if we are suggesting they try Oyster.

[1] I foolishly chose "St Pancras", which turns out to be the FCC SPILL
gateline, not the tube station.
--
Roland Perry

In message
, at
00:52:28 on Sat, 7 May 2011, solar penguin
remarked:
You look up transport fares in advance. Yes, that is a sample of one,
and you can't extrapolate from it to claim that "most people" do
this. The most you can conclude is that it is _possible_ for people
to look up transport fares in advance.

But even if you do, it can be difficult to take in all the wrinkles.

I've visited Brussels more times than I can recall, and always buy
"Jump" tickets for the metro. I've looked at the website quite a few
times as well. And only last year did I realise you can use those
tickets on the Belgium 'National Rail' services within the city, as well
as the metro etc.

Indeed, if you look at this page: http://www.brussels.info/transport/
while it says the ticket is valid on all "inner city transport", it goes
on to say [only] that the ticket's valid on "bus, metro or tram or a
combination". The paragraph on buses says the ticket can be used on
"metro and trams as well". (No mention of trains).

And the statement that "public transport is made up of metro lines,
train lines, buses and trams" doesn't unambiguously include trains in
the jump ticket, and the final paragraph about trains only talks about
inter-city ticketing.

In fact, now I've typed all that, I could be excused if having doubts it
really does include inner-city trains!

But buried elsewhere is:

"[allows] journeys on the entire public transport network of STIB trams,
busses, trains and the underground until the end of service (except for
the NATO-Brussels Airport section of lines 12 and 21). It is also valid
on the networks of DE LIJN and TEC and SNCB in Brussels."

And that's a site with a very good English-language rendition of its
rules. I never did find anything as useful for Lisbon, so reluctantly
used taxis instead.
--
Roland Perry

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 7 May 2011 00:52:28 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
wrote:


I'm sorry, I shouldn't've said that. It was a silly, cheap shot.

Yes it was, wasn't it as were several of your other remarks. I'm not
responding any more to you in this thread.


OK, that's your choice.

On 7 May, 08:48, "Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:
In message
,

solar penguin wrote:
But compare that with how easy it is to fall across problems with
Oyster PAYG. *It's unlikely you could use it for even a few trips
without coming across some sort of problem. *That's the difference.

I spent a week in London just before Easter. 15 Underground train
journeys (i.e. more than "a few"), 3 buses, all on Oyster. Zero
problems.

Indeed, none of my family (two of whom live in London and commute daily
on Oyster) have *ever* had a problem.

* You just don't like Oyster - that's fine. However don't try to
"get me" over having survey evidence and then using a sample of one to
support your dislike of Oyster in the same thread!! * It's not exactly a
consistent position.

I'm sorry for thinking "a sample of one" was more than nothing at
all. *You see, I have this old-fashioned idea that one is somehow more
than none.

"The singular of 'data' is not 'anecdote'."

--
Clive D.W. Feather * * * * * * * * *| Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 * * * * * * | Web: *http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:


I'm not being funny Clive but do you and your family check your
balance regularly? Many people don't even realise they've been
overcharged.

It's happened to me so many times (on trains and tube) that I now only
use PAYG Oyster for bus and tram travel (where a simple flat fare is
deducted), for rail travel I use paper tickets, normally a ODTC. I
also know many other people who've been similarly overcharged as well,
indeed there was an article about it in the Evening Standard recently.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 22:08:46 on
Fri, 6 May 2011, Paul Corfield remarked:

If people don't research before travel I wonder why we get so many posts
on here from potential visitors about how tickets work, what trains to
catch, how to use the buses etc etc?

Because this is a self-selected group of people who are interested in
researching fares.

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with abroad
just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work out how to
get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious point-to-point
service between the airport and their destination).

Are these people that you travel with spending OPM

tim

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 May 2011 22:13:59 +0100, Clive Page wrote:

On 06/05/2011 13:33, Paul Corfield wrote:
Having looked at the TfL website I wonder what more TfL could do in
terms of making getting an Oyster Card easy for visitors and providing
pretty clear info on the system's rules and features. OK it is all in
English but many visitors will have a smattering of the language or
they can use an on line translation facility. It's not absolutely
perfect (show me a transport ticketing website that is) but neither is
it some sort of disaster zone where information is virtually
impossible to obtain or understand.

I'm not sure what more TfL could do: the Oyster system is,
unfortunately, extremely complex when you consider all the possible ways
you can use it. And visitors are quite likely to use it (or try to)
when going to places like Greenwich or Windsor, in awkward combinations
of tubes and buses and national rail trains and maybe even trams, so
they run more than a tiny risk of encountering the rough edges of the
scheme.

Let's take a step back. At the most basic level Oyster is not that
complicated.

You buy a card, pay a deposit and add money or a Travelcard on it.
On rail journeys in the zonal area you must touch in and then touch out.
On a tram journey you touch in.

Unless that tram's a docklands tram where you have to touch out!

On a bus journey you touch in.

You can add more money at a LU station, at ticket machines at stations
across the zonal area and at shops with signs saying Oyster Ticket
Stops.

Oh and Oyster will add up your daily PAYG travel and will ensure you pay
the cheapest total fare.


The above concepts are common to many smartcard systems elsewhere in the
world

Perhaps I'm not as travelled as you, but none of the similar systems that I
have used ever require you to touch out.

They either have a completely flat fare system (with or without "free"
transfers) or they require you to specify (by some mechanism) your exit zone
when you touch in, and rely upon honesty (and random on board checks) to do
it right.

It is "unresolved journeys" that cause most Oyster **** ups and is something
that no other system I have used can ever suffer from.

tim

In message , at 11:53:49 on Sat, 7 May
2011, tim.... remarked:

I never cease to be amazed at the majority of people I travel with abroad
just jump into taxis and are aghast at the idea they could work out how to
get a train or bus (even when there's a very obvious point-to-point
service between the airport and their destination).

Are these people that you travel with spending OPM

It varies. Not very many will be employed in the private sector, there
being a skew towards not-for-profit, academia and public sector. Of
course, the ones who have paid for a longhaul air flight themselves, and
then go on to stay in a typically $200 a night hotel, may not be to
worried about the odd $50 taxi fare.

There's also the "safety" aspect, where when visiting some countries
it's probably not a good idea to wander round the streets looking lost.
But I don't think many European (or even north American) cities come
into that category. The trick is, not having a "one size fits all"
travel policy.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:03:03 on Sat, 7 May
2011, tim.... remarked:
Perhaps I'm not as travelled as you, but none of the similar systems that I
have used ever require you to touch out.

You have to touch out of an Amsterdam tram (the fares are zonal).

"Always check in and check out

Travel with the OV-chipkaart means that you must always check in
and check out at the gates or the yellow card readers."

http://www.gvb.nl/english/travellers.../ov-chipkaart-
travel-products/Pages/rules.aspx

It is "unresolved journeys" that cause most Oyster **** ups and is
something that no other system I have used can ever suffer from.

"Not checked in or out? That means there is an incomplete
transaction on your card. Your card will be disabled if there
are twelve incomplete transactions on your card in two weeks.
You must then get the card restored at one of our Tickets & Info
service points."

I wonder if the Singapore system is the same (another of the Oyster-
alikes).
--
Roland Perry