Euston Square lifts
 

Does anyone fancy making a quick site survey for me?

Apparently there are two new lifts at Euston Square. One goes from the
westbound platform to the ticket hall (but the unpaid side!) and the
other from there to the street. Is this correct?

The lifts should be numbered 1 and 2. Which is which?

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
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Euston Square lifts
 

On Fri, 6 May 2011 18:06:50 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:
Apparently there are two new lifts at Euston Square.

Just went through there (sadly about 20 mins before reading this) and
did not notice them, sorry.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Euston Square lifts
 

In article ,
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
Does anyone fancy making a quick site survey for me?

Apparently there are two new lifts at Euston Square. One goes from the
westbound platform to the ticket hall (but the unpaid side!) and the
other from there to the street. Is this correct?

This seems correct from my memory of the (then closed) lifts last
time I past through the station.

Sadly, Euston Square is on the backup to the backup route to work,
so I don't know when I'll next naturally pass that way.

The lifts should be numbered 1 and 2. Which is which?

That I didn't note when I last went through.

--
Mike Bristow

Euston Square lifts
 

In message , Paul Corfield
wrote:
The lifts should be numbered 1 and 2. Which is which?

That I'm not aware of. I think Bowroaduk's Flickr site might have some
photos - not sure if he has the numbers too.

checks

Lift 1 is street to ticket hall. Lift 2 is ticket hall to platform.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2477273...n/photostream/ -
other photos are adjacent to this one in his photostream.

Thanks.

--
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Euston Square lifts
 

On May 6, 6:06*pm, "Clive D. W. Feather" wrote:
Does anyone fancy making a quick site survey for me?

Apparently there are two new lifts at Euston Square. One goes from the
westbound platform to the ticket hall (but the unpaid side!) and the
other from there to the street. Is this correct?

The lifts should be numbered 1 and 2. Which is which?

--
Clive D.W. Feather * * * * * * * * *| Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 * * * * * * | Web: *http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

If the lift was from the platform to the unpaid side of the ticket
barrier, surely that would result in many unresolved journeys on
Oyster PAYG, plus being a charter for fare dodgers?

Euston Square lifts
 

One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps. There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

But ISTR that at Stratford there used to be a lift from the street to
either the Central Line or the Docklands, bypassing all the gates.

Euston Square lifts
 

In article ,
Offramp wrote:
But ISTR that at Stratford there used to be a lift from the street to
either the Central Line or the Docklands, bypassing all the gates.

There are holes in the Gateline already - Finchley Central is the
clasic example (I haven't been that way for a long time, so perhaps
it's been 'plugged' now), but I understand that the step free access
to the DLR at Bank avoids the gateline too...


--
Mike Bristow

Euston Square lifts
 

On Fri, 13 May 2011 01:23:20 -0700 (PDT), Offramp wrote:
One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

It isn't just fare evasion concerns that make two-step lifts
necessary. Just because I'm using a lift doesn't mean I already have a
ticket. London dwelling disabled people will probably have a FreedomPass
but they are very much in the minority of people I see using lifts
at stations.

Euston Square lifts
 

In article
,
(Offramp) wrote:

One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps. There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

I suspect the Westminster height is more typical than you realise. From
street to ticket hall is a common lift requirement.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011\05\13 11:43, wrote:
In article
,
(Offramp) wrote:

One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps. There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

I suspect the Westminster height is more typical than you realise. From
street to ticket hall is a common lift requirement.

If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people within,
a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the platforms
without compromising the barrier line.

Euston Square lifts
 

"Basil Jet" wrote:

On 2011\05\13 11:43, wrote:

(Offramp) wrote:

One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps. There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

I suspect the Westminster height is more typical than you realise. From
street to ticket hall is a common lift requirement.

If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people within,
a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the platforms
without compromising the barrier line.


With doors opening alternate sides I suppose.

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011\05\13 12:54, Mizter T wrote:

"Basil Jet" wrote:

On 2011\05\13 11:43, wrote:

(Offramp) wrote:

One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps. There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

I suspect the Westminster height is more typical than you realise. From
street to ticket hall is a common lift requirement.

If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people
within, a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the
platforms without compromising the barrier line.


With doors opening alternate sides I suppose.

The lift would have two modes, streetside and airside, and could only
switch between the two when empty. On the ticket hall level the mode
would control which of the two doors opened.

Euston Square lifts
 

In message , at 13:00:34 on
Fri, 13 May 2011, Basil Jet remarked:
If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people
within, a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the
platforms without compromising the barrier line.

With doors opening alternate sides I suppose.

The lift would have two modes, streetside and airside, and could only
switch between the two when empty. On the ticket hall level the mode
would control which of the two doors opened.

And I predict it would spend most of its time full of people wanting the
opposite mode to that which it was currently performing, and refusing to
get out.
--
Roland Perry

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011\05\13 13:30, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:00:34 on
Fri, 13 May 2011, Basil Jet remarked:
If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people
within, a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the
platforms without compromising the barrier line.

With doors opening alternate sides I suppose.

The lift would have two modes, streetside and airside, and could only
switch between the two when empty. On the ticket hall level the mode
would control which of the two doors opened.

And I predict it would spend most of its time full of people wanting the
opposite mode to that which it was currently performing, and refusing to
get out.

It's theoretically possible that one mode could hog the lift, but I
don't think any lift on LU is busy enough for that to happen, except at
the lift-only stations such as Covent Garden.

The other way to exploit one shaft and motor would be to attach two lift
cages on top of each other, with the top one streetside and the bottom
one airside. If the distance between the two cages was the same as the
distance from street to ticket hall, they could both load simultaneously
at the top, although they'd need to load separately at the bottom. That
way neither mode can hog the lift, but people would often be in a
stopped lift with the doors shut.

Euston Square lifts
 

In message , at 14:29:52 on
Fri, 13 May 2011, Basil Jet remarked:

The other way to exploit one shaft and motor would be to attach two
lift cages on top of each other, with the top one streetside and the
bottom one airside. If the distance between the two cages was the same
as the distance from street to ticket hall, they could both load
simultaneously at the top, although they'd need to load separately at
the bottom.

I've never seen that lift configuration, possibly because one lift's
occupants will assume they are trapped when the lift stops without the
doors opening.
--
Roland Perry

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011\05\13 14:42, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:29:52 on
Fri, 13 May 2011, Basil Jet remarked:

The other way to exploit one shaft and motor would be to attach two
lift cages on top of each other, with the top one streetside and the
bottom one airside. If the distance between the two cages was the same
as the distance from street to ticket hall, they could both load
simultaneously at the top, although they'd need to load separately at
the bottom.

I've never seen that lift configuration, possibly because one lift's
occupants will assume they are trapped when the lift stops without the
doors opening.

If the motor had two different sized drums attached to the same axle,
with the cables for the two cars attached to the two drums, as the upper
lift moved one metre the lower lift could move ten metres. In theory
this should be cheaper than two lifts, but in practice it might not be
due to non-standard parts.

Euston Square lifts
 

On Fri, 13 May 2011 15:03:19 +0100
Basil Jet wrote:
If the motor had two different sized drums attached to the same axle,
with the cables for the two cars attached to the two drums, as the upper
lift moved one metre the lower lift could move ten metres. In theory
this should be cheaper than two lifts, but in practice it might not be
due to non-standard parts.

There's probably a whole host of safety issues too.

B2003

Euston Square lifts
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at 13:00:34
on Fri, 13 May 2011, Basil Jet
remarked:
If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people
within, a single lift could link the street, the ticket hall and the
platforms without compromising the barrier line.

With doors opening alternate sides I suppose.

The lift would have two modes, streetside and airside, and could only
switch between the two when empty. On the ticket hall level the mode
would control which of the two doors opened.

And I predict it would spend most of its time full of people
wanting the opposite mode to that which it was currently
performing, and refusing to get out.

Never mind all the operating complexity, just think where the lifts go.
Those in Westminster are some way apart.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Euston Square lifts
 

On Fri, 13 May 2011, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:29:52 on Fri, 13
May 2011, Basil Jet remarked:

The other way to exploit one shaft and motor would be to attach two lift
cages on top of each other, with the top one streetside and the bottom one
airside. If the distance between the two cages was the same as the distance
from street to ticket hall, they could both load simultaneously at the top,
although they'd need to load separately at the bottom.

I've never seen that lift configuration, possibly because one lift's
occupants will assume they are trapped when the lift stops without the
doors opening.

You could have a sign outside the window saying DON'T WORRY, YOU ARE NOT
TRAPPED, perhaps. Or, if there was an intermediate level the same distance
below the ticket hall as that is below the street, the doors could open
there. You could even furnish such a level merely to prevent distress!

On double-decker lifts more generally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-deck_elevator

tom

--
These spoiled youths forget that when they are shaven they look like
boiled potatoes. -- Tara Singh

Euston Square lifts
 

On Sat, 14 May 2011 10:29:19 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:
TRAPPED, perhaps. Or, if there was an intermediate level the same
distance
below the ticket hall as that is below the street, the doors could
open
there. You could even furnish such a level merely to prevent
distress!

Some funiculars appear to have stations in the middle of nowhere for
that sort of purpose.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

Euston Square lifts
 

On May 14, 1:44*am, wrote:

In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

Never mind all the operating complexity, just think where the lifts go.
Those in Westminster are some way apart.

They should of course be designed to surface just behind the Speaker's
chair.

Euston Square lifts
 

In message

, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
There is a validator by the lift. Apparently the plan is to move the
gateline when the station is fully refurbished. The lift also has a
street exit accessible by key only.

You mean the lift from the platform? I thought there were two separate
lifts.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Euston Square lifts
 

In message
,
Offramp wrote:
One of the runsoff of fare evasion is that these two-step lifts are
thought necessary.

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps.

Westminster lift 2; it has a vertical travel of 2.4m.

Of those I have data for, there are 8 lifts with a travel of less than
5m. They a

Hainault lift 3: 0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m
Westminster lift 2: 2.4m
Green Park lift 1: 3.0m
Southwark lift 2: 3.3m
Westminster lift 3: 4.0m
Westminster lift 4: 4.0m
Brixton lift 1: 4.6m

There is a similar sort of thing at the Borough
High St exit at London Bridge.

Lift 3, 7.26m.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Euston Square lifts
 

In message , Basil Jet
wrote:
If the lift had doors on two sides and sensors to detect people within,

I believe most lifts do, based on the tension in the cable.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Mobile: +44 7973 377646 | Web: http://www.davros.org
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Euston Square lifts
 

On Sat, 14 May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In message , Offramp wrote:

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps.

Westminster lift 2; it has a vertical travel of 2.4m.

Of those I have data for, there are 8 lifts with a travel of less than 5m.
They a

Hainault lift 3: 0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m

Wow. Lifts going over two metres, i think i can understand. But what are
these two for? Why were ramps not possible? Particularly for Hainault!

tom

--
packaheomg sogma's

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011-05-14, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In message , Offramp wrote:

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates.
So there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of
the shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of
about a dozen steps.

Westminster lift 2; it has a vertical travel of 2.4m.

Of those I have data for, there are 8 lifts with a travel of less than 5m.
They a

Hainault lift 3: 0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m

Wow. Lifts going over two metres, i think i can understand. But what are
these two for? Why were ramps not possible? Particularly for Hainault!

tom


Presumably it's the lift avoiding these four steps:

http://www.directenquiries.com/image...5-04-50785.jpg

E

Euston Square lifts
 

On Sun, 15 May 2011, Eric wrote:

On 2011-05-14, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

Of those I have data for, there are 8 lifts with a travel of less than
5m. They a

Hainault lift 3: 0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m

Wow. Lifts going over two metres, i think i can understand. But what
are these two for? Why were ramps not possible? Particularly for
Hainault!

Presumably it's the lift avoiding these four steps:

http://www.directenquiries.com/image...5-04-50785.jpg

Believable!

It seems a bit mad that those four steps even exist. What are the spaces
on either side of them?

I suppose if you were building a station today, you'd strive to have as
few different levels as possible, to minimise the need for steps and
lifts, but back when many of our stations were built, bunging a few steps
in seemed like a cheap price for being able to make more use of space or
whatever.

tom

--
Nullius in verba

Euston Square lifts
 

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

It seems a bit mad that those four steps even exist. What are the
spaces on either side of them?

The problem at Hainault is that the Central line runs on an old viaduct
built for a little-used Great Eastern branch line. The following shows
the original tiny building:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/thr...ult-Station%29

Much of the modern station has to fit between the arches of the old
viaduct and the main road that now runs past the station, so the site is
very constrained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...n_building.JPG
--
Paul Terry

Euston Square lifts
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
rth.li...

On Sat, 14 May 2011, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In message
,
Offramp wrote:

An in extremis example is at Westminster. There is no lift from the
street to the platforms; that would mean by-passing the ticket gates. So
there is a lift from the street to the ticket office level - one of the
shallowest lifts in London, I would think. It has the depth of about a
dozen steps.

Westminster lift 2; it has a vertical travel of 2.4m.

Of those I have data for, there are 8 lifts with a travel of less than 5m.
They a

Hainault lift 3: 0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m

Wow. Lifts going over two metres, i think i can understand. But what are
these two for? Why were ramps not possible? Particularly for Hainault!

At Walthamstow I believe lift 2 gets you from the gateline level down to the
uderpass going under the road to the bus station, about 7 or 8 steps.

--
Cheers, Steve.

Euston Square lifts
 

"Steve Dulieu" wrote in message
...

Wow. Lifts going over two metres, i think i can understand. But what are
these two for? Why were ramps not possible? Particularly for Hainault!

At Walthamstow I believe lift 2 gets you from the gateline level down to
the uderpass going under the road to the bus station, about 7 or 8 steps.

There's a pretty shallow lift at Stratford from the Jubilee concourse level
to the Western subway - I reckon it's only a couple of feet. They are
probably more commonthan you'd expect.

Paul S

Euston Square lifts
 

On Sun, 15 May 2011, Paul Terry wrote:

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

It seems a bit mad that those four steps even exist. What are the spaces on
either side of them?

The problem at Hainault is that the Central line runs on an old viaduct built
for a little-used Great Eastern branch line. The following shows the original
tiny building:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/thr...ult-Station%29

Much of the modern station has to fit between the arches of the old viaduct
and the main road that now runs past the station, so the site is very
constrained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...n_building.JPG

Horizontally constrained, i can see. Is it vertically constrained? What
prevents the higher floor in the original photo (the link to which has
since been trimmed) being 67 cm lower, so there is no need for steps down
to the lower floor?

It looks like the higher floor is a cross-passage running between a ticket
hall and something else, which also receives steps down from the street.
Making it four steps lower would mean adding four steps to the staircase
leading from the street, which would in turn mean shuffling the passage a
metre or so further away from street (to the left in the photo). What's at
the other end of the passage? Could that also be lower?

tom

--
a moratorium on the future

Euston Square lifts
 

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

Horizontally constrained, i can see. Is it vertically constrained? What
prevents the higher floor in the original photo (the link to which has
since been trimmed) being 67 cm lower, so there is no need for steps
down to the lower floor?

The additional steps would then protrude into the cross passage which,
as you say ...

which would in turn mean shuffling the passage a metre or so further
away from street (to the left in the photo).

The passage passes through one of the quite narrow arches of the
original Great Eastern viaduct, so it couldn't be moved left - it would
have to be reduced in width by a metre or so, which I guess would be
unacceptable from the point of traffic flows in the rush hour.

What's at the other end of the passage?

The arrangement is a mirror image of the near end. The rising staircase
at the near end of the passage provides access to platform 1 and the one
at the far end provides access to platforms 2 and 3.
--
Paul Terry

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011-05-15, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2011, Paul Terry wrote:

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

It seems a bit mad that those four steps even exist. What are the spaces on
either side of them?

The problem at Hainault is that the Central line runs on an old viaduct built
for a little-used Great Eastern branch line. The following shows the original
tiny building:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/thr...ult-Station%29

Much of the modern station has to fit between the arches of the old viaduct
and the main road that now runs past the station, so the site is very
constrained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...n_building.JPG

Horizontally constrained, i can see. Is it vertically constrained? What
prevents the higher floor in the original photo (the link to which has
since been trimmed) being 67 cm lower, so there is no need for steps down
to the lower floor?

It looks like the higher floor is a cross-passage running between a ticket
hall and something else, which also receives steps down from the street.
Making it four steps lower would mean adding four steps to the staircase
leading from the street, which would in turn mean shuffling the passage a
metre or so further away from street (to the left in the photo). What's at
the other end of the passage? Could that also be lower?

tom


Those steps coming down in to the passage are from the platforms! This
is all ancient infrastructure (the old viaduct mentioned above) and
there would presumably have been no way to move the passage without
destroying and rebuilding everything. Look at the other photos linked
from

http://www.directenquiries.com/stati...mpany=Hainault

( or http://tinyurl.com/65tg4es)

E.

Euston Square lifts
 

On 2011-05-15, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2011, Paul Terry wrote:

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

It seems a bit mad that those four steps even exist. What are the spaces on
either side of them?

The problem at Hainault is that the Central line runs on an old viaduct built
for a little-used Great Eastern branch line. The following shows the original
tiny building:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/thr...ult-Station%29

Much of the modern station has to fit between the arches of the old viaduct
and the main road that now runs past the station, so the site is very
constrained:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha...n_building.JPG

Horizontally constrained, i can see. Is it vertically constrained? What
prevents the higher floor in the original photo (the link to which has
since been trimmed) being 67 cm lower, so there is no need for steps down
to the lower floor?

It looks like the higher floor is a cross-passage running between a ticket
hall and something else, which also receives steps down from the street.
Making it four steps lower would mean adding four steps to the staircase
leading from the street, which would in turn mean shuffling the passage a
metre or so further away from street (to the left in the photo). What's at
the other end of the passage? Could that also be lower?

tom


Those steps coming down into the passage are from the platforms! This is
all old infrastructure, there is no sensible way to move the passage.

http://tinyurl.com/65tg4es


E.

Euston Square lifts
 

On Sun, 15 May 2011, Paul Terry wrote:

In message . li, Tom
Anderson writes

Horizontally constrained, i can see. Is it vertically constrained? What
prevents the higher floor in the original photo (the link to which has
since been trimmed) being 67 cm lower, so there is no need for steps down
to the lower floor?

The additional steps would then protrude into the cross passage which, as you
say ...

which would in turn mean shuffling the passage a metre or so further away
from street (to the left in the photo).

The passage passes through one of the quite narrow arches of the
original Great Eastern viaduct, so it couldn't be moved left

Aha!

- it would have to be reduced in width by a metre or so, which I guess
would be unacceptable from the point of traffic flows in the rush hour.

Yes, absolutely. I now understand the constraints - thank you all for
explaining them.

tom

--
History is ending.

Euston Square lifts
 

On May 15, 12:44*am, Tom Anderson wrote:

Hainaultlift 3: * * * * * *0.67m
Walthamstow Central lift 2: 1.47m

It is probably JUST about worth going to Hainault to see that lift
number 3. It is a normal lift, but you must press the up-or-down
button and keep it pressed as you ascend/descend. On the train to
return, in the last carriage, there were two people in wheelchairs -
so it had done its job!