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Blackfriars
I need to travel from Southfields to Elstree daily for a few weeks.
The last time I did this journey, a few years ago, I used to take the District Line to Blackfriars and change onto the Luton line. I know Blackfriars tube is closed, and the journey planner tells me to go via Kings Cross, but having heard bad stories of KC interchange isn't changing at Blackfriars using Temple or Mansion House still the easiest option? Any other suggestions? Paul |
Blackfriars
"paul in HG" wrote in message
... I need to travel from Southfields to Elstree daily for a few weeks. The last time I did this journey, a few years ago, I used to take the District Line to Blackfriars and change onto the Luton line. I know Blackfriars tube is closed, and the journey planner tells me to go via Kings Cross, but having heard bad stories of KC interchange isn't changing at Blackfriars using Temple or Mansion House still the easiest option? Any other suggestions? I would think walking from Temple to Blackfriars is more hassle than changing at Kings Cross. Other options are Southfields - Edgware Road - Farringdon - Elstree Southfields - West Brompton - West Hampstead - Elstree (cheaper as avoids Zone 1) Peter Smyth |
Blackfriars
On May 21, 2:19*pm, paul in HG wrote: I need to travel from Southfields to Elstree daily for a few weeks. The last time I did this journey, a few years ago, I used to take the District Line to Blackfriars and change onto the Luton line. I know Blackfriars tube is closed, and the journey planner tells me to go via Kings Cross, but having heard bad stories of KC interchange isn't changing at Blackfriars using Temple or Mansion House still the easiest option? Any other suggestions? Go to Wimbledon and take the direct Thameslink stopping train? Timing wise might not be so great though (the train starts off going in the 'wrong direction' towards Streatham, and isn't particularly snappy). Re the interchange at Kings Cross St Pancras - does partly depend which way your coming at it from, i.e. from the sub-surface lines or from the Piccadilly line. Whichever way you might do it, via KXSP, Temple or Mansion House there'd still be a walk - possibly choose which walk you prefer... Alternatively - go to West Brompton and change onto the London Overground to West Hampstead - from this Sunday's timetable change there are lots more trains that run direct from the WLL onto the NLL (half-hourly during the day but every 15 mins during the peaks). From West Hampstead pick up the Thameslink to Elstree & Borehamwood. The above route route also avoid zone 1, so is cheaper - you'd only need a zones 2-6 Travelcard, or if using Oyster PAYG you'd only pay a zones 2-6 fare so long as you touched on the pink Oyster route validator when changing at West Brompton - see the TfL Single fare finder and click on 'Alternate fares' for confirmation of this: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...inder/current/ (Note that at West Hampstead you'd need to touch-out at the London Overground station before touching in again at the Thameslink station, as this is an out-of-station interchange. Assuming 10 peak time journeys in a week at £3.40 each, Oyster PAYG actually comes out 40 pence cheaper than a weekly z2-6 Travelcard at £34.40 - but of course you get all the extra travel you want thrown in with a Travelcard, so it'd just take making a single bus journey to tip the balance in its favour.) |
Blackfriars
In message
, at 07:39:14 on Sat, 21 May 2011, Mizter T remarked: Re the interchange at Kings Cross St Pancras - does partly depend which way your coming at it from, i.e. from the sub-surface lines or from the Piccadilly line. Whichever way you might do it, via KXSP, Temple or Mansion House there'd still be a walk - possibly choose which walk you prefer... At Kings Cross, the change from subsurface to Thameslink is one of the shorter. Another possibility is to take the Jubilee via Baker Street, then change again at West Hampstead. -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
On May 21, 3:39*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Go to Wimbledon and take the direct Thameslink stopping train? Timing wise might not be so great though (the train starts off going in the 'wrong direction' towards Streatham, and isn't particularly snappy). Thanks but I've tried that before and the train just seems to take forever before it crosses the river. OK for the evening when I'm not in a rush. Alternatively - go to West Brompton and change onto the London Overground to West Hampstead - from this Sunday's timetable change there are lots more trains that run direct from the WLL onto the NLL (half-hourly during the day but every 15 mins during the peaks). From West Hampstead pick up the Thameslink to Elstree & Borehamwood. The above route route also avoid zone 1, so is cheaper - you'd only need a zones 2-6 Travelcard, or if using Oyster PAYG you'd only pay a zones 2-6 fare so long as you touched on the pink Oyster route validator when changing at West Brompton - see the TfL Single fare finder and click on 'Alternate fares' for confirmation of this: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...inder/current/ I'd forgotten about the West Brompton route, that's certainly worth a try. Thanks for all the suggestions, time to do some experimenting to see which is best! Paul |
Blackfriars
In message
s.com of Sat, 21 May 2011 14:24:04 in uk.transport.london, paul in HG writes On May 21, 3:39*pm, Mizter T wrote: [snip] I'd forgotten about the West Brompton route, that's certainly worth a try. Thanks for all the suggestions, time to do some experimenting to see which is best! Nobody has said that TfL's Journey Planner (JP) can be used for Luton. It is slightly tricky to persuade it to take some of the more obscure routes suggested. Later: Oh bu??er, the target was Elstree. Sorry about the verbosity in URLs below. JP finds Elstree ambiguous. It prefers Elstree & Borehamwood Rail Station but tolerates Elstree and Borehamwood Station. (That can be passed without problem to both FireFox and Internet Explorer. Browsers use ";amp;" to communicate "&".) You may also have problems with your news reader not handling url correctly where url extends over several lines. I had when testing. Here goes: 1a) The basic route now http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se ssionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&ty pe_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station 1b) That route using JP's large print version http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/bcl...anguage=en&ses sionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&typ e_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station 1c) That route in German http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...sessionID=0&pt OptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&type_de stinati on=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station 1d) That route departing on a specified day and time: http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se ssionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&ty pe_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station&itd date=20110523&itdtime=700 1e) That route arriving on a specified day and time: http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se ssionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&ty pe_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station&itd Date=20110516&itdTime=700&itdTripDateTimeDepArr=ar r 2) Southfields - Edgware Road - Farringdon - Elstree http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se ssionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&ty pe_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station&typ e_via=stop&name_via=Edgware Road (Circle Line) This is a bit long from an Excel 2003 cell containing a hyperlink call where I generate those urls. name_via=Baker Street is equivalent and 14 bytes shorter. (BAY is -17). 3) Southfields - West Brompton - West Hampstead - Elstree (cheaper as avoids Zone 1) http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se ssionID=0&ptOptionsActive=-1&type_origin=stop&name_origin=southfields&ty pe_destination=stop&name_destination=Elstree and Borehamwood Station&typ e_via=stop&name_via=West Hampstead name_via=West Brompton is ineffective - main route goes through WBT. 4) In message ..com of Sat, 21 May 2011 07:39:14 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] Go to Wimbledon and take the direct Thameslink stopping train? Timing wise might not be so great though (the train starts off going in the 'wrong direction' towards Streatham, and isn't particularly snappy). name_via=Wimbledon selects this route. It did not do so for name_destination=Luton which suggested changing to an overtaking Bedford train from a St Albans' at Farringdon. 5) In message of Sat, 21 May 2011 15:52:14 in uk.transport.london, Roland Perry writes [snip] At Kings Cross, the change from subsurface to Thameslink is one of the shorter. Another possibility is to take the Jubilee via Baker Street, then change again at West Hampstead. I can't force this. name_via=Finchley Road goes via Westminster. As already noted, name_via=Baker Street goes via Farringdon. -- Walter Briscoe |
Blackfriars
In message
..com of Sat, 21 May 2011 07:39:14 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] Re the interchange at Kings Cross St Pancras - does partly depend which way your coming at it from, i.e. from the sub-surface lines or from the Piccadilly line. Whichever way you might do it, via KXSP, Temple or Mansion House there'd still be a walk - possibly choose which walk you prefer... I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall. BTW. I recently saw a link on UTL to station details on www.directenquiries.com. That site had stopped showing LU stations when TfL stopped paying it to do so. I don't have a route to http://www.dire ctenquiries.com/londonunderground.aspx?tab=Underground%20Stations& level= 1 which is back in place. I can't find interchanges within a station on Direct Enquiries any more. The route to the Northern Ticket Hall is shown at http://www.directenqu iries.com/stationDiagram.aspx?tab=StationPlanRoute&did=0173-0980728%2b01 73-0980819_P2H&did1=0173-0980723_H2E&did2=&cid=0173-1508725&cid1=0173-15 08706&cid2=&fid=0173-0029975&eo=&xo=&lpid=4366&sr=Y&sh=Y&level=1&dir=r& c ompanyid=74329&company=King%27s%20Cross/St%20Pancras -- Walter Briscoe |
Blackfriars
On 22/05/2011 08:50, Walter Briscoe wrote:
I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall. I agree that 13 minutes is too generous but I interchange frequently between Thameslink and Piccadily Lines at St Pancras and my experience is that the old western route is faster than the one via the Northern Ticket Hall, probably by 1 to 1.5 minutes; on the other hand the Northern Ticket Hall route is less congested because because it's somewhat tucked away. To save most time on the Western route you need to be in the last carriage of the northbound Picc line train. If you walk fast, and walk up/down all three escalators, you can do the interchange in about 7 minutes; to do it faster than that would involve running, and with all the gormless Eurostar passengers infesting the shopping arcade usually known as St.Pancras this would be very tricky. Changing from the Circle line station to Thameslink can be done in about 5 minutes in my experience, but if you are coming on the circle line from the east it's certainly much faster to change at Farringdon (but one of the staircases there is out of use at present making it take longer than it used to). That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the shopping centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to Thameslink in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station. -- Clive Page |
Blackfriars
In message , at 08:50:39 on Sun, 22
May 2011, Walter Briscoe remarked: I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall. They have to take account of people with luggage, and who walk slowly (I'm not sure if they also take into account using all the lifts on the way). You have to go up a flight of stairs, along quite a long corridor, up some escalators, through the Northern Ticket Hall, then up an escalator to the St Pancras Concourse. Along past the "Farmers market" and ticket offices, through the FCC barriers, then down two sets of escalators. The good news is, all the lifts you might need are right next door to the stairs/escalators, which isn't always the case. -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
In message , at 10:27:29 on Sun, 22 May
2011, Clive Page remarked: That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the shopping centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to Thameslink in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station. The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far south as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The whole thing's a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new Thameslink station could have been close by the Eurostar check-in, rather than halfway to Camden. -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message , at 10:27:29 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Clive Page remarked: That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the shopping centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to Thameslink in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station. The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far south as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The whole thing's a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new Thameslink station could have been close by the Eurostar check-in, rather than halfway to Camden. Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole train. There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main Thameslink entrance. Paul S |
Blackfriars
In message , at 11:52:00 on
Sun, 22 May 2011, Paul Scott remarked: The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far south as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The whole thing's a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new Thameslink station could have been close by the Eurostar check-in, rather than halfway to Camden. Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole train. There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main Thameslink entrance. But only for passengers arriving via the concourse. There could also have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out. -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
On May 22, 12:22*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 11:52:00 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Paul Scott remarked: The change they made was moving the Thameslink station. It's as far south *as it could be now, given the curvature of the tunnels. The whole thing's*a mess, frankly. Perhaps the entrance to the new Thameslink station could*have been close by the Eurostar check-in, rather than halfway to Camden. Then you'd have 'end fed' 12 car platforms, with all the resultant congestion - and ensuing failure to spread passengers along the whole train. There seem to be valid reasons for the position of the main Thameslink entrance. But only for passengers arriving via the concourse. There could also have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out. Right through the sewer? |
Blackfriars
On May 22, 10:27*am, Clive Page wrote: On 22/05/2011 08:50, Walter Briscoe wrote: I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall. I agree that 13 minutes is too generous but I interchange frequently between Thameslink and Piccadily Lines at St Pancras and my experience is that the old western route is faster than the one via the Northern Ticket Hall, probably by 1 to 1.5 minutes; on the other hand the Northern Ticket Hall route is less congested because because it's somewhat tucked away. *To save most time on the Western route you need to be in the last carriage of the northbound Picc line train. Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow to your superior knowledge on that one. If you walk fast, and walk up/down all three escalators, you can do the interchange in about 7 minutes; to do it faster than that would involve running, and with all the gormless Eurostar passengers infesting the shopping arcade usually known as St.Pancras this would be very tricky. Avoided by going the northern ticket hall route of course. Changing from the Circle line station to Thameslink can be done in about 5 minutes in my experience, but if you are coming on the circle line from the east it's certainly much faster to change at Farringdon (but one of the staircases there is out of use at present making it take longer than it used to). Coming from the west though it's still quicker to change at KXSP / St Pancras - from KXSP to Farringdon on the sub-surface lines it's a 3/4 minute run, ditto Farringdon to St Pancras on Thameslink. For those with time / luggage / mobility impairments, Farringdon remains the easier interchange of course. That's the price of progress, of course: before they plonked the shopping centre in St.Pancras you could easily change from Picc line to Thameslink in under 3 minutes using the now abandoned station. Which got very (of not stupidly) overcrowded during the peaks. Given how busy KX Thameslink was, and how the opportunity of having a new spacious station at St Pancras arose, and the need to accommodate 12- car trains in the not too distance future, and the expected growth in passenger numbers as part of Thameslink 2000 (sorry, the Thameslink Programme), it's hardly any surprise that the station moved. Anyway, a short walk never did anyone any harm (...cue slew of examples to the contrary!). |
Blackfriars
In message
m, at 06:05:42 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked: There could also have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out. Right through the sewer? Apparently it was already diverted (see bottom of page 1) and it's only a foot tunnel needed. http://www.bacsol.co.uk/images/uploa...5StPancras.pdf -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
In message
, at 06:28:39 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked: Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow to your superior knowledge on that one. Why use a mental picture when I have a real one :) http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg The old route is perhaps 10% shorter, but both include significant dog-legs. -- Roland Perry |
Blackfriars
On May 22, 2:32*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message m, at 06:05:42 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked: There could also *have been a communicating tunnel between the Northern Ticket Hall and *the Thameslink platforms, for tube passengers, to balance it out. Right through the sewer? Apparently it was already diverted (see bottom of page 1) and it's only a foot tunnel needed. http://www.bacsol.co.uk/images/uploa...5StPancras.pdf AIUI it was indeed diverted a bit, but it remains very much in the way - the following plans of the KX station redevelopment (courtesy of Paul Scott who dug them out from the LB Camden planning website) show the Fleet Sewer - see the second and third pages (sub-basement and basement) - n.b. large 7MB+ file: http://sites.google.com/site/miztert/Home/KingsCrossdrawings.pdf We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively titled "Oyster PAYG": http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...ffc108d03a952/ I agree that a basement / sub-surface link between the northern ticket hall and the Thameslink mezzanine (i.e. a continuation of the NTH-St Pancras link tunnel underneath the east-west 'farmer' market' concourse) does on the face of it make sense - however I think the presence of this major sewer does rather torpedo that idea, as it's right bang slap in the way. |
Blackfriars
On May 22, 3:12*pm, Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 06:28:39 on Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T remarked: Interesting - my mental picture is that for Picc to Thameslink the shortest way would be via the northern ticket hall (NTH) - but I bow to your superior knowledge on that one. Why use a mental picture when I have a real one :) http://www.perry.co.uk/images/kx-composite.jpg The old route is perhaps 10% shorter, but both include significant dog-legs. Yes, that's what I was after, but I failed to find it! Another issue of course is which way the signs (try and) send you - Victoria to Northern line it directs you via the NTH I think - not a very direct route... If one was starting from scratch one wouldn't have made the KXSP complex like this - but of course if one was starting from scratch so much else would be different too. |
Blackfriars
On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote:
We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively titled "Oyster PAYG": http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...ffc108d03a952/ Well, at least we're now having it in one titled, er, no hang on a minute ... tom -- this news group concentrate the debil of usenet -- uk.local.london motto |
Blackfriars
On May 22, 8:01*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: .. On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote: We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively titled "Oyster PAYG": http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...se_frm/thread/.... Well, at least we're now having it in one titled, er, no hang on a minute ... It's all subterfuge to misdirect the urb-exers from finding clues to the portal giving access to the magic kingdom (aka the manhole to the Fleet sewer) underneath the Yo-Sushi pot washing sink at the back of St P... |
Blackfriars
On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote:
On May 22, 8:01*pm, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2011, Mizter T wrote: We kinda had this discussion a year ago - in a thread unintuitively titled "Oyster PAYG": http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...se_frm/thread/... Well, at least we're now having it in one titled, er, no hang on a minute ... It's all subterfuge to misdirect the urb-exers from finding clues to the portal giving access to the magic kingdom (aka the manhole to the Fleet sewer) underneath the Yo-Sushi pot washing sink at the back of St P... I'm pretty sure Clive's got all the magic portals listed on his site, hasn't he? He's missing opening dates for a few, admittedly. tom -- Science which is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced |
Blackfriars
On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 03:09:09PM +0100, Peter Smyth wrote:
I would think walking from Temple to Blackfriars is more hassle than changing at Kings Cross. Other options are The only hassle is crossing the road junction at the north end of Blackfriars Bridge. I recommend walking from St Pauls, stopping for a pint in the Cockpit on the way. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" There's no problem so complex that it can't be solved by killing everyone even remotely associated with it |
Blackfriars
*From:* Walter Briscoe
*Date:* Sun, 22 May 2011 08:50:39 +0100 In message .com of Sat, 21 May 2011 07:39:14 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T writes [snip] Re the interchange at Kings Cross St Pancras - does partly depend which way your coming at it from, i.e. from the sub-surface lines or from the Piccadilly line. Whichever way you might do it, via KXSP, Temple or Mansion House there'd still be a walk - possibly choose which walk you prefer... I think JP is unduly pessimistic in advising 13 minutes between KXX Piccadilly and STP. I believe it nearer 5 - particularly if you leave from carriage 2, door 2 which is nearest the Northern Ticket Hall. BTW. I recently saw a link on UTL to station details on www.directenquiries.com. That site had stopped showing LU stations when TfL stopped paying it to do so. I don't have a route to http://www.dire ctenquiries.com/londonunderground.aspx?tab=Underground%20Stations& le vel= 1 which is back in place. I can't find interchanges within a station on Direct Enquiries any more. The route to the Northern Ticket Hall is shown at http://www.directenqu iries.com/stationDiagram.aspx?tab=StationPlanRoute&did=0173-0980728% 2b01 73-0980819_P2H&did1=0173-0980723_H2E&did2=&cid=0173-1508725&cid1=017 3-15 08706&cid2=&fid=0173-0029975&eo=&xo=&lpid=4366&sr=Y&sh=Y&level=1&dir =r&c ompanyid=74329&company=King%27s%20Cross/St%20Pancras -- Walter Briscoe Is this any better?: http://ludemo.directenquiries.com/default.aspx?st=what Luckily I had already bookmarked the page To choose a station: put Underground station in the "Find me a" box. Leave the "or a Business Named" box empty Put the area in the "In where" box Click on "Go find" You may be given a choice of stations, so selects the one you want. The details of the platforms etc. are at the bottom of the page below the tube map. I don't know what the difference is between the two sites other than www.directenquiries.com has ""copyright Direct Enquiries Limited 2002 - 2011" whereas http://ludemo.directenquiries.com/ has "copyright Direct Enquiries Limited 2002 - 2008" Perhaps the second one is an old site that they've left up and so might not be up to date. Roger |
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